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Thread: I am getting rid of the .40

  1. #1
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    I am getting rid of the .40

    I am starting to move away from carrying .40s&w. Now before I go any further in explanation, just let it be known that I am not trying to start another caliber war(as i type this I can already feel it coming).

    My edc is a Glock 23(.40) and is a great gun. However, over the years of firing more and more 9mm and .45, I can't help but notice that my time back on target is much quicker with both 9mm and .45 loads. I have noticed this with shooting many different guns chambered in 9mm, .40, and .45.Although still a great round, it is no secret that .40 is definitely a more snappier round. When it first came out, it probably was one of the best crosses between 9mm and .45 but with advances in bullet manufacturing today, for me personally I just don't see a need to carry a load that takes longer to get back on target when either a 9mm or a .45 will do the trick. I guess the only question is now whether to carry my M&P9 or Kimber TLE/RL II?

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    Regular Member hjmoosejaw's Avatar
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    Sound reasoning. It's something to be considered, just like carrying capacity, knock down power,etc.
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    Regular Member SouthernBoy's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by hjmoosejaw View Post
    Sound reasoning. It's something to be considered, just like carrying capacity, knock down power,etc.
    No such thing. Perhaps you meant "stopping power".

    This brings to mind something I thought about a few days ago. I was in a local McDonald's for a simple breakfast and there were several pretty good sized young men in there. One was rather rotund, maybe coming in at around 300+ pounds, with a large chest. The distance from his sternum to the surface of his back was probably 30+ inches. This got me to thinking how effective a smaller round would be against him if he were a BG and you needed to use deadly force against him. I had a perfect view of his profile and there was a lot of fat and meat for a bullet to transgress before getting to his vitals. I couldn't help but wonder if a 9mm with a decent expanding design could make the trip to his heart. I could easily imagine where a number of rounds might need to be expended to bring someone like this down and God forbid if they were high on something.

    All of this gave me a greater appreciation of a more powerful cartridge, such as the .40S&W (which I had with me) or a .45ACP. And keep in mind that in an extreme encounter, your likelihood of effective shot placement diminishes almost expediently as your mind is racing and your body is undergoing an adrenaline dump. Your hits are more likely to be anywhere in the thorax, arms, legs, etc. Solid CM hits are probably going to be the exception... not the rule as people don't keep still when rounds are heading their way.

    Anyway, it did give me pause and made me appreciate the idea of a larger, heavier bullet with good controlled expansion which will hopefully enable it to reach deep into the body.
    In the final seconds of your life, just before your killer is about to dispatch you to that great eternal darkness, what would you rather have in your hand? A cell phone or a gun?

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    Regular Member 09jisaac's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by SouthernBoy View Post
    Anyway, it did give me pause and made me appreciate the idea of a larger, heavier bullet with good controlled expansion which will hopefully enable it to reach deep into the body.
    I felt the same way one night at walmart. I was walking around walmart and noticed this guy, he had to be 6'4''+ and pushing 300lbs. He wasn't ripped (by a long shot) but you could tell he did manual labor often.

    I was just thinking, if I needed to stop this man, I would probably have to empty my mag and then ask him to quit. 18 rounds of 9mm +P is comforting in most circumstances (especially how fast follow up shots are), but if I was faced with an opponent of similar size, I doubt I would treasure the 9mm. Now I am looking for a .357 sig in a 1911 platform (because I like the feel of 1911s and I don't own one).


    To answer OPs question, as you probably already know, the M&P is a great gun, the 9mm is a sufficient round (for most circumstances) and having a firearm is head and shoulders over not being protected.
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    Regular Member Michigander's Avatar
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    Just curious, have you ever shot a compensated .40 Glock? My G20c is quite manageable, even under rapid fire with one hand. Even with full power reloads, I'd describe the recoil as softer than a GI 1911 with GI ammo. So I can't help wondering how the .40 would compare.
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    Regular Member hjmoosejaw's Avatar
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    Stopping power, knock down power. Just a phrase I use. Permanent cavity, temporary cavity, hemorrhaging, foot pounds. All of these are factors in incapacitating an individual. I once was on a forum and used the term clip instead of magazine. Boy, did that start an argument? I know the difference between a clip and a magazine, but clip rolled off the top of my head first. I use the word magazine every time now. But I know what people mean when they say clip. If my buddy and I are ever pinned down behind a truck by BG's and I'm out of ammo, and he asks me if I need another clip, the first thing I'm going to say is YEP. If there is a huge difference between "Stopping power" and "Knock down power", educate me and I will be glad to stand corrected.
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    Regular Member WalkingWolf's Avatar
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    A person's ability to continue an attack has more to do with their mental makeup than their size. You can blow out a persons heart and they can continue to attack for 10 or more seconds. A longggggg time.

    People have been known to continue attacks after being shot multiple times with a 357 magnum. Taking out the brain stem will stop a attacker immediately, that can be done with a .22, just aim for the mouth and hope the bullet is not deflected. Taking out the thinking part of the brain may or may not stop a person. Blowing out the spine will result most times in the attacker losing use of the legs.

    If anybody has been shot or stabbed they can attest that their is not always enough pain to stop, and sometimes no pain at all. Many people who are fatally shot in crimes get away to just expire. A old detective friend of mine when I first started working told me to shoot for the groin. It said it stops them every time, and there is usually no money wasted on keeping them alive as it is one of the quickest points to bleed out.

    Size doesn't matter, it is what you do with it.
    Last edited by WalkingWolf; 07-28-2012 at 10:36 AM.

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    Regular Member SouthernBoy's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by hjmoosejaw View Post
    Stopping power, knock down power. Just a phrase I use. Permanent cavity, temporary cavity, hemorrhaging, foot pounds. All of these are factors in incapacitating an individual. I once was on a forum and used the term clip instead of magazine. Boy, did that start an argument? I know the difference between a clip and a magazine, but clip rolled off the top of my head first. I use the word magazine every time now. But I know what people mean when they say clip. If my buddy and I are ever pinned down behind a truck by BG's and I'm out of ammo, and he asks me if I need another clip, the first thing I'm going to say is YEP. If there is a huge difference between "Stopping power" and "Knock down power", educate me and I will be glad to stand corrected.
    Hope you didn't get the impression I was zeroing in to pick on you. Nothing of the sort, I can assure you. My intent was this with the term "knock down power".

    Most folks in the gun culture know that there is no such thing as knock down power and when we use it (kinda like clip), we usually know this means stopping power, arresting power, or something similar. We don't mean that it literally means to remove someone from their upright stance and throw them against the nearest wall with a hit from a .45ACP for example. But the general public DOES tend to believe things like this because this is what they have been fed by the entertainment industry for decades. So naturally a newbie coming here, or some other gun website, when hearing someone say knock down power probably thinks to himself that these folks are intimate with firearms so there must be some truth to this.

    Terms like clip instead of magazine, knock down power instead of stopping power, and assault rifle/weapon instead of semi-automatic firearm are prevalent in the news and entertainment media and should be avoided by us for this reason. We don't want to feed the uninformed with terms beloved by the antis as agenda-advancers.

    Will a 9mm, .40S&W, or .45ACP literally knock someone off of their feet? Hardly. Will it force them to drop suddenly? Sure, if it hits the brain, brain stem, or spinal column in the right place. But a hit to center mass or lower thorax? Highly doubtful.
    In the final seconds of your life, just before your killer is about to dispatch you to that great eternal darkness, what would you rather have in your hand? A cell phone or a gun?

    Si vis pacem, para bellum.

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    Quote Originally Posted by 09jisaac View Post
    I was just thinking, if I needed to stop this man, I would probably have to empty my mag and then ask him to quit.
    "Pardon me sir, but I just emptied my magazine and you're still there. Could you sit down for a moment while I reload?"

    I spit my coffee out when I read that last part.

  10. #10
    Regular Member hjmoosejaw's Avatar
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    Terms like clip instead of magazine, knock down power instead of stopping power, and assault rifle/weapon instead of semi-automatic firearm are prevalent in the news and entertainment media and should be avoided by us for this reason. We don't want to feed the uninformed with terms beloved by the antis as agenda-advancers.

    Yeah, that was pretty much the reasoning pointed out on the other forum I was talking about. Just like using the term "magazine" instead of "clip". I'll try to use "stopping power" more in the future. No offense taken. Have a good one!
    watch your top knot !

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    Ammo capacity issues? BAM, problem solved.

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    Quote Originally Posted by SouthernBoy View Post
    All of this gave me a greater appreciation of a more powerful cartridge, such as the .40S&W (which I had with me) or a .45ACP. And keep in mind that in an extreme encounter, your likelihood of effective shot placement diminishes almost expediently as your mind is racing and your body is undergoing an adrenaline dump. Your hits are more likely to be anywhere in the thorax, arms, legs, etc. Solid CM hits are probably going to be the exception... not the rule as people don't keep still when rounds are heading their way.
    Eh, I am not too worried about hitting CoM or head under pressure after being in both Iraq in Afghanistan and having to do the same. You do bring up a good point though, because the average person does not have these experiences to draw upon.

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    Regular Member SovereignAxe's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by WalkingWolf View Post
    A person's ability to continue an attack has more to do with their mental makeup than their size. You can blow out a persons heart and they can continue to attack for 10 or more seconds. A longggggg time.

    People have been known to continue attacks after being shot multiple times with a 357 magnum. Taking out the brain stem will stop a attacker immediately, that can be done with a .22, just aim for the mouth and hope the bullet is not deflected. Taking out the thinking part of the brain may or may not stop a person. Blowing out the spine will result most times in the attacker losing use of the legs.

    If anybody has been shot or stabbed they can attest that their is not always enough pain to stop, and sometimes no pain at all. Many people who are fatally shot in crimes get away to just expire. A old detective friend of mine when I first started working told me to shoot for the groin. It said it stops them every time, and there is usually no money wasted on keeping them alive as it is one of the quickest points to bleed out.

    Size doesn't matter, it is what you do with it.
    This exactly. This is why I'm a big fan of 9mm. Between pistol rounds, the difference in stopping power has been proven to be minimal. IMO one should carry the round that they can handle the best that also penetrates sufficiently. Not everyone can, but if you can handle .45 nearly as well as 9mm, I say go for it-the power advantage is siginificant enough to make up for the slight loss of controllability. But I think .40's power advantage over 9mm is so minimal that it's negated by its controllability.
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    If you do like the .45 and want minimal recoil I suggest getting the M&P45. I shot it at my local gun range the other day and I could of sworn I was shooting 9mm +p instead. Yea, it really is that good. It will probably be my next purchase.

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    Regular Member SouthernBoy's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by 11B2O View Post
    Eh, I am not too worried about hitting CoM or head under pressure after being in both Iraq in Afghanistan and having to do the same. You do bring up a good point though, because the average person does not have these experiences to draw upon.

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    Exactly my point and I have written about this same subject for quite some time. I am a firm believer in the fact that nobody really knows how they are going to react to an extreme encounter until it is facing them like right now.... unless they have had a similar experience or experiences in the past. Hesitation is what gets good people injured or killed because they don't think like the BG's who have little problem doing very bad things to their victims.

    Your experiences taught you things about yourself that most people will never learn... or for that matter, fully appreciate or understand.
    In the final seconds of your life, just before your killer is about to dispatch you to that great eternal darkness, what would you rather have in your hand? A cell phone or a gun?

    Si vis pacem, para bellum.

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    Regular Member SouthernBoy's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by 11B2O View Post
    If you do like the .45 and want minimal recoil I suggest getting the M&P45. I shot it at my local gun range the other day and I could of sworn I was shooting 9mm +p instead. Yea, it really is that good. It will probably be my next purchase.

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    They are great pistols. I bought one last year with the 4" barrel and have the Apex DCAEK in it but kept the factory trigger spring in place. This gives a nice 5 pound pull with a very crisp break.
    In the final seconds of your life, just before your killer is about to dispatch you to that great eternal darkness, what would you rather have in your hand? A cell phone or a gun?

    Si vis pacem, para bellum.

    America First!

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    Quote Originally Posted by SouthernBoy View Post
    No such thing. Perhaps you meant "stopping power".

    This brings to mind something I thought about a few days ago. I was in a local McDonald's for a simple breakfast and there were several pretty good sized young men in there. One was rather rotund, maybe coming in at around 300+ pounds, with a large chest. The distance from his sternum to the surface of his back was probably 30+ inches. This got me to thinking how effective a smaller round would be against him if he were a BG and you needed to use deadly force against him.
    Myth busters did a bullet test shooting into fat and the fat made no difference in slowing the round down. Looking for the video now.
    Last edited by zack991; 08-01-2012 at 05:06 AM.
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    Quote Originally Posted by zack991 View Post
    Myth busters did a bullet test shooting into fat and the fat made no difference in slowing the round down. Looking for the video now.
    What about bone?

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    Quote Originally Posted by Super Trucker View Post
    What about bone?
    The myth was, if would the round be effected by the extra fat from a overweight person and would in turn help protect the person.

    Season 8
    Episode 112: Coffin Punch

    Human fat is bulletproof.

    busted

    Determining that the largest layer of fat around a human (Walter Hudson) would measure 16 inches, Adam and Jamie placed that amount of human-temperature cow fat in front of the dummy. The bullet made it all the way through the fat easily.
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    Quote Originally Posted by WalkingWolf View Post
    A person's ability to continue an attack has more to do with their mental makeup than their size. You can blow out a persons heart and they can continue to attack for 10 or more seconds. A longggggg time.

    People have been known to continue attacks after being shot multiple times with a 357 magnum. Taking out the brain stem will stop a attacker immediately, that can be done with a .22, just aim for the mouth and hope the bullet is not deflected. Taking out the thinking part of the brain may or may not stop a person. Blowing out the spine will result most times in the attacker losing use of the legs.

    If anybody has been shot or stabbed they can attest that their is not always enough pain to stop, and sometimes no pain at all. Many people who are fatally shot in crimes get away to just expire. A old detective friend of mine when I first started working told me to shoot for the groin. It said it stops them every time, and there is usually no money wasted on keeping them alive as it is one of the quickest points to bleed out.

    Size doesn't matter, it is what you do with it.
    First your talking about size doesn't matter and shooting someone in the groin at the same time. Second if someone is shot in the groin do you really think they would want to live any further....bleeding aside.

    What if the perp is a girl?

    I agree it is mostly shot placement and that people can be shot multiple times and keep going expecially if they are on drugs.

  21. #21
    Regular Member WalkingWolf's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by DocWalker View Post
    First your talking about size doesn't matter and shooting someone in the groin at the same time. Second if someone is shot in the groin do you really think they would want to live any further....bleeding aside.

    What if the perp is a girl?

    I agree it is mostly shot placement and that people can be shot multiple times and keep going expecially if they are on drugs.
    It is what I was told by a officer who had been around for some time when I was green. Yes he had shot a couple people in the groin and they immediately went down. One died, one did not because he was shot in the hospital. Not sure what it would mean if it was a female. You would have to ask a female how debilitating pain is in their groin region. They probably would bleed out just as fast a man I think.

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    Quote Originally Posted by 09jisaac View Post
    I felt the same way one night at walmart. I was walking around walmart and noticed this guy, he had to be 6'4''+ and pushing 300lbs. He wasn't ripped (by a long shot) but you could tell he did manual labor often.

    I was just thinking, if I needed to stop this man, I would probably have to empty my mag and then ask him to quit. 18 rounds of 9mm +P is comforting in most circumstances (especially how fast follow up shots are), but if I was faced with an opponent of similar size, I doubt I would treasure the 9mm. Now I am looking for a .357 sig in a 1911 platform (because I like the feel of 1911s and I don't own one).


    To answer OPs question, as you probably already know, the M&P is a great gun, the 9mm is a sufficient round (for most circumstances) and having a firearm is head and shoulders over not being protected.
    I too have debated this for the same reasons. My uncle is 6'4" tall and weighs nearly 400 lbs. It would be difficult to put a man of his size down with a whole magazine of 9mm rounds, much less one or two. I conducted what research I could on the subject, and found that the 9mm is not a reliable man stopper (even with our modern ammunition), and that there are numerous horror stories to back that up. The .40, 10mm, and .357 Sig. all have good performance records, and seem to do the job well. I am currently carrying a 13 round .357 Sig (Glock 23 RTF2 with wolff conversion barrel), and 2 spare 15 round magazines and I feel I am sufficiently armed. Of course no Handgun cartridge is ideal for SD, but it's what we can easily carry.

    But, if you need to carry a 9mm do to recoil concerns, then that is fine; carrying a 9mm is better than carrying nothing. And I too would recommend the S&W M&P. If you are going to carry the 9mm, then more rounds is better than less; and the Smith is just as reliable, if not more reliable.
    Last edited by KYGlockster; 08-01-2012 at 04:07 PM.
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  23. #23
    Regular Member 09jisaac's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by mwaterous View Post
    "Pardon me sir, but I just emptied my magazine and you're still there. Could you sit down for a moment while I reload?"

    I spit my coffee out when I read that last part.
    I would probably start running. I hope I could out run a man that heavy, especially with all those holes in him.

    Quote Originally Posted by KYGlockster View Post
    I too have debated this for the same reasons. My uncle is 6'4" tall and weighs nearly 400 lbs. It would be difficult to put a man of his size down with a whole magazine of 9mm rounds, much less one or two. I conducted what research I could on the subject, and found that the 9mm is not a reliable man stopper (even with our modern ammunition), and that there are numerous horror stories to back that up. The .40, 10mm, and .357 Sig. all have good performance records, and seem to do the job well. I am currently carrying a 13 round .357 Sig (Glock 23 RTF2 with wolff conversion barrel), and 2 spare 15 round magazines and I feel I am sufficiently armed. Of course no Handgun cartridge is ideal for SD, but it's what we can easily carry.
    So you understand what I am talking about. I am confident that I can hold off a bunch of doped up teenagers with the 9mm. And I can probably even stop an obese person. But those rare people you see about, the ones that double your weight but wouldn't be considered "fat", those are the ones I am worried about every having a run in with them. A .45 or a .357 (either) would be a far better gun in those select circumstances.
    No man alive can beat me in a fair fight: It's not fair to chase a man down and beat him.

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    Regular Member SouthernBoy's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Super Trucker View Post
    What about bone?
    Yep, and with a human target there's not only bone but quite often multiple bones plus muscle, sinew, tendons, ligaments, and a host of other internal and external stuff that can and does get in the way of the bullet's flight.
    In the final seconds of your life, just before your killer is about to dispatch you to that great eternal darkness, what would you rather have in your hand? A cell phone or a gun?

    Si vis pacem, para bellum.

    America First!

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