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Marines place 22.5 Million Dollar Order for the M1911 Government Model

j4l

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There are plenty of stories of soldiers using their sidearms in every war/ conflict we have had to justify giving the a sidearm. Complaints from soldiers also helps in getting firearms changed. Also the m9 was kind of a political handgun. 45 is Actualy better than a 9mm and it's has been proven in the current war/conflict. You hear of stories of soldiers shooting at a enemy to find out your ammunition is not strong enough to take them down. Or of stories of them having to switch to a sidearm because of tight spaces. Or of main weapon malfunctions. The m9 and the 9mm round it fires has had a lot of complaintS in its 30 plus years of service.

BINGO.
Try dumping an entire mag of 9mm into a crazed, half-starved Somali from 12 -15 feet=all hits/ all center-mass/neck/face and have the guy still coming at you. Not fun.
But .45? 2 hits, max. they go down and stay that way.
Not an opinion, not a theory, not a maybe or a what-if, just the plain truth of it., end of story. And that has been the case since at least 1873.
 
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The Wolfhound

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better be prepared to wait

Awesome news!

My question is, how long before we start seeing Lake City Surplus .45 Ball?

Once it gets back in the inventory it will take a couple of years for production to get to the right level before any surplus shows up. In the mean time, expect a shortage. This will push demand (so will the coming election) and production will as always lag behind.
 

WalkingWolf

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Hah, not really. :lol:

When I signed for my M16 in 76 seems it was only a couple hundred dollars. I believe AR15 at that time in my local gun shop was around six hundred dollars, well above the armory price. Not sure why they put a monetary value on armory papers, if a person lost one they had a lot more to worry about than paying for it.

It seems odd that in this day of supposed transparency our gov is paying almost double price compared to the commercial prices.
 

Sonora Rebel

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1911M1? Really? How'bout 1911A1? Now it's the M45? A few nice changes that I can determine, altho adjustable sights (if that's what they are) are not a good idea.

'...but there is no getting around it being an expensive design to get right.'
Uh...it would appear they 'got it right' over 100 years ago. 'Only real improvement would be weight and magazine capacity. This is a weapon... not a target toy. I carry a Springer... which has yet to hiccup in the 25 years I've owned it. This one has a grooved mainspring housing that will accept a stock.
 

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WalkingWolf

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1911M1? Really? How'bout 1911A1? Now it's the M45? A few nice changes that I can determine, altho adjustable sights (if that's what they are) are not a good idea.

'...but there is no getting around it being an expensive design to get right.'
Uh...it would appear they 'got it right' over 100 years ago. 'Only real improvement would be weight and magazine capacity. This is a weapon... not a target toy. I carry a Springer... which has yet to hiccup in the 25 years I've owned it. This one has a grooved mainspring housing that will accept a stock.

They are not adjustable sights. They are combat night sights I believe. The M45 also has swartz firing pin safety system, picatinny rail.
 

j4l

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They are not adjustable sights. They are combat night sights I believe. The M45 also has swartz firing pin safety system, picatinny rail.

Novak's night versions. Not adjustable, beyond possible drift adjustment of the rear.
 

Sig229

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Love the 1911, however they really should have went with a double stack magazine design.

An eight round magazine is not something I would want to take into combat.
Especially since in a combat role, your sidearm is 99% of the time your last resort.

ETA: Not to mention, the .45 is a slow moving cartridge that has a hard time penetrating light cover.

For instance, if I want to fire at an enemy behind a metal or thick wood door, I want to make sure there's enough wallop on the target afterward.

Although its not a NATO approved cartridge, I believe the .357 SIG round would be a perfect combat cartridge.

Im not trying to cause a pi**ing match, but lets face it, there have been some incredible advancements in cartridge design and ballistics since a 100+ years ago when the .45ACP was invented.
 
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zack991

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Love the 1911, however they really should have went with a double stack magazine design.

An eight round magazine is not something I would want to take into combat.
Especially since in a combat role, your sidearm is 99% of the time your last resort.

ETA: Not to mention, the .45 is a slow moving cartridge that has a hard time penetrating light cover.

For instance, if I want to fire at an enemy behind a metal or thick wood door, I want to make sure there's enough wallop on the target afterward.

Although its not a NATO approved cartridge, I believe the .357 SIG round would be a perfect combat cartridge.

Im not trying to cause a pi**ing match, but lets face it, there have been some incredible advancements in cartridge design and ballistics since a 100+ years ago when the .45ACP was invented.

There are rounds that I carry that go almost 1200 FPS and the army does buy high end rounds if they are needed. A slower bigger round will do more damage when striking a body than a round that zips right through the body like the 9mm FMJ does. Both the 9mm and 45acp would benefit from a JHP but sadly the military cannot carry JHP. There is a big reason why police departments are going to a larger caliber from the 9mm and giving up magazine capacity for a heaver hitting round.

I have talked to a few non-regular US Army personal in country that were carrying a 45 ACP pistol. I asked if they thought it had plenty of stopping power and if they felt it was the right caliber. Their reply was the 45 ACP was a round that they knew would put the enemy down with a good thump and he would stay down. They said it was the best choice in caliber in their opine and they could never understand why the army went with the 9mm round to begin with, he said when your carry the larger caliber and you know how to use the weapon your don't need 13 round magazine to get the job done.

As for the body armor, I have yet to see single combatant wear body armor overseas. Has it happened, possibly but the 9mm itself would not fair any better at stopping that type of target, that at least the 45 will thump them enough to allow a quick follow up shot to the head or pelvis.
 
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WalkingWolf

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There are rounds that I carry that go almost 1200 FPS and the army does buy high end rounds if they are needed. A slower bigger round will do more damage when striking a body than a round that zips right through the body like the 9mm FMJ does. Both the 9mm and 45acp would benefit from a JHP but sadly the military cannot carry JHP. There is a big reason why police departments are going to a larger caliber from the 9mm and giving up magazine capacity for a heaver hitting round.

I have talked to a few non-regular US Army personal in country that were carrying a 45 ACP pistol. I asked if they thought it had plenty of stopping power and if they felt it was the right caliber. Their reply was the 45 ACP was a round that they knew would put the enemy down with a good thump and he would stay down. They said it was the best choice in caliber in their opine and they could never understand why the army went with the 9mm round to begin with, he said when your carry the larger caliber and you know how to use the weapon your don't need 13 round magazine to get the job done.

As for the body armor, I have yet to see single combatant wear body armor overseas. Has it happened, possibly but the 9mm itself would not fair any better at stopping that type of target, that at least the 45 will thump them enough to allow a quick follow up shot to the head or pelvis.

The studies do not bear this out, the 45 and 9 are both listed after results at two shot stops. The energy of both rounds is close to the same. Actually with larger sized individuals I would prefer the extra penetration that a 9 would deliver. Medically two things stop a attacker immediately. Disruption of the nervous system. This would include spinal, or brain injuries. Pain overwhelming pain, and that comes from damaged muscle tissue, usually a clean hit with penetration while it will kill does not produce pain. The third factor which is not physical is a persons desire to live and fight or run. Strictly mental, and probably in most cases this is what stops a person until they die. It is a proven fact that without spinal or brain disruption that a person can continue to fight for several seconds after the heart stops.

I like the 45 for civilian carry, and law enforcement carry for the legal issues of casualties of non intended targets. To be honest if I was in the military field I would prefer the 9. Ammo interchangeability with allies, higher capacity, the capability to get through walls and doors and still enough energy to kill the target. The Soviets did quite well with the Makarov a lower powered 9.

Yes there will be incidents when the 9 does not drop a threat, and the same is true of the 45. If you(general you) want one shot stops in a handgun consider the 44 magnum. But that would be expensive and not provide enough rounds. The place the military really needs to focus is a replacement for the M4. There are more stories about it's failures in battle than the 9mm pistol round. For close combat the military needs to return to the Thompson sub-machine-gun if that is the desire. For the battle rifle they need to return to the 308 which is NATO round, then they will not need a sidearm. The 308 has the shock energy to knock the wind out of a target, it has the energy to drop a horse. Probably the way to go would be retool the m4 to 308, and the FN556 for the sidearm, penetration of armor, and more shocking power than both the 9 and 45.
 
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Maine Expat

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Love the 1911, however they really should have went with a double stack magazine design.

An eight round magazine is not something I would want to take into combat.
Especially since in a combat role, your sidearm is 99% of the time your last resort.

ETA: Not to mention, the .45 is a slow moving cartridge that has a hard time penetrating light cover.

For instance, if I want to fire at an enemy behind a metal or thick wood door, I want to make sure there's enough wallop on the target afterward.

That's what the C-4 is for mate.

Although its not a NATO approved cartridge, I believe the .357 SIG round would be a perfect combat cartridge.

Im not trying to cause a pi**ing match, but lets face it, there have been some incredible advancements in cartridge design and ballistics since a 100+ years ago when the .45ACP was invented.

.45 ACP! Because shooting twice is just silly. :D

I am just kidding. The 9 mm, though considered the little brother to the .45 is every bit as capable. I just like the .45 more, probably the nostalgia factor from my MP days.
 
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j4l

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Love the 1911, however they really should have went with a double stack magazine design.

An eight round magazine is not something I would want to take into combat.
Especially since in a combat role, your sidearm is 99% of the time your last resort.

ETA: Not to mention, the .45 is a slow moving cartridge that has a hard time penetrating light cover.

For instance, if I want to fire at an enemy behind a metal or thick wood door, I want to make sure there's enough wallop on the target afterward.

Although its not a NATO approved cartridge, I believe the .357 SIG round would be a perfect combat cartridge.

Im not trying to cause a pi**ing match, but lets face it, there have been some incredible advancements in cartridge design and ballistics since a 100+ years ago when the .45ACP was invented.


rly? a hard time penetrating cover? Sure if you are talking about a stack of sandbags, or perhaps a few inches of concrete, but the very weight (230 grn in military use) and velocity of that round are WHY it penetrates most, common obstacles very well indeed.
I've tested my own TMJ rounds for penetration on a lot of items- steel doors, auto body panels, glass and auto safety glass, wood from framing, bricks, cinder blocks, boards of 1" pine, etc. for myself, and it punches right into and through almost everything that you can reasonably expect a handgun round to penetrate, and even more important- it holds that mass, and is not easily deflected off-course/point of aim the way lighter rounds-including even 5.56 rifle rounds do.

No, it's not a magic bullet, but it will do 99% of what a combat troop needs it to do under 99% of the situations they are likely to encounter, and it does it very well indeed.
100 yrs later- (for .45 acp) and 139 yrs later (for .45 in general- approx same velocity/weights +/- 100fps) and it STILL kicks ass.
 

Sig229

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I've tested my own TMJ rounds for penetration on a lot of items- steel doors, auto body panels, glass and auto safety glass, wood from framing, bricks, cinder blocks, boards of 1" pine, etc. for myself, and it punches right into and through almost everything that you can reasonably expect a handgun round to penetrate, and even more important-

And were you able to measure the energy of your .45acp projectile AFTER it penetrated those obstacles?

There's a news story out there I'll have to find about two officers showing up to a scene and a man was barricaded in his home and began to fire on police.
One officer had a .45acp and the other a .357-Sig cartridge.

The .45acp round wasnt doing anything to the man after it penetrated the walls of the structure.
However, the .357-Sig did deliver fatal strikes after going through multiple walls .

You have to understand that soldiers going into combat all over the world are faced with the MOST diverse situations.
They could be in jungle, woodlands, mountains but most likely this day and age urban combat.

Im NOT saying the .45acp is junk, I am saying there are better alternatives out there now for SOLDIERS than the .45acp these days.
 
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WalkingWolf

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And were you able to measure the energy of your .45acp projectile AFTER it penetrated those obstacles?

There's a news story out there I'll have to find about two officers showing up to a scene and a man was barricaded in his home and began to fire on police.
One officer had a .45acp and the other a .357-Sig cartridge.

The .45acp round wasnt doing anything to the man after it penetrated the walls of the structure.
However, the .357-Sig did deliver fatal strikes after going through multiple walls .

You have to understand that soldiers going into combat all over the world are faced with the MOST diverse situations.
They could be in jungle, woodlands, mountains but most likely this day and age urban combat.

Im NOT saying the .45acp is junk, I am saying there are better alternatives out there now for SOLDIERS than the .45acp these days.

I want to know why these soldiers are going to their handgun so much. I doubt it is they are running out of ammo, because the solution would then be more ammo. I have to call BS on some of the claims I have heard, because the soldiers making claims of inadequacy of the 9, are not major biotching about the their primary weapon. It just doesn't make sense.

I see nothing inherently wrong with returning to the .45, but if I had a choice I would prefer the 9. But if they are going to spend the money the military should get the most bang for the buck. Higher mag capacity, easier training platform(Glock style). Personally if not the 9 it should be the 5.56. 45 has big advantages for law enforcement, less penetration, and imparts the energy in a aggressor(safety to bystanders). The military needs that extra penetration for hard targets. A handgun round should have enough energy to go through a door frame and at least injure the person on the other side.
 

marshaul

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...there have been some incredible advancements in cartridge design and ballistics since a 100+ years ago when the .45ACP was invented.

Not really, no. There has been iterated marginal improvement, sure, but cartridge design is little changed in 100 years. The improvements engendered by better ballistics modeling are hardly "incredible" or game changing.

The biggest improvement is metallurgy, which custom loaded .45 ACP can benefit from the same as any cartridge (i.e. higher peak pressures, leading to more velocity for a given quantity of "felt" recoil).
 

marshaul

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For the battle rifle they need to return to the 308 which is NATO round, then they will not need a sidearm. The 308 has the shock energy to knock the wind out of a target, it has the energy to drop a horse. Probably the way to go would be retool the m4 to 308, and the FN556 for the sidearm, penetration of armor, and more shocking power than both the 9 and 45.

Way to miss out on the last half century of military science.
 

marshaul

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And were you able to measure the energy of your .45acp projectile AFTER it penetrated those obstacles?

There's a news story out there I'll have to find about two officers showing up to a scene and a man was barricaded in his home and began to fire on police.
One officer had a .45acp and the other a .357-Sig cartridge.

The .45acp round wasnt doing anything to the man after it penetrated the walls of the structure.
However, the .357-Sig did deliver fatal strikes after going through multiple walls .

You have to understand that soldiers going into combat all over the world are faced with the MOST diverse situations.
They could be in jungle, woodlands, mountains but most likely this day and age urban combat.

Im NOT saying the .45acp is junk, I am saying there are better alternatives out there now for SOLDIERS than the .45acp these days.

A news story doesn't tell squat. What do we know about bullet construction – bonded or non bonded? Configuration – presumably JHP, but what shape (all JHPs are not created equal)? What about the powder charge behind the load? Bullet weight? Barrel length of the gun firing the bullet? All of these factors must be known and considered before an iota of useful information can be gleaned from such an anecdote.

Incidentally, for a given caliber and muzzle energy, a heavier bullet penetrates further than a lighter, faster bullet. This is easily confirmed empirically as well as using classical physics.
 
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