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Thread: Pastor arrested for holding home Bible study

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    Pastor arrested for holding home Bible study

    Pastor arrested for holding home Bible study
    July 11, 2012

    Today, Michael Salman sits in jail following a raid on his home because the city doesn't allow people to hold private Bible studies on their own property! Fox News quoted Phoenix City Prosecutor Vicki Hall as saying, "It came down to zoning and proper permitting. Anytime you are holding a gathering of people continuously as he does, we have concerns about people being able to exit the facility properly in case there is a fire."

    http://www.examiner.com/article/past...me-bible-study

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    Regular Member Beretta92FSLady's Avatar
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    It makes sense.

    One of the comments from the link you provided: "Sean KirkI am a Born again Christian but disagree with your assertion that this is purely about religious persecution. All cities have zoning ordnances. Churches are not exempt from the law. In fact the bible tells us that we are to respect local authority unless it flies in the face of God. In my opinion this pastor, willfully circumvented the law from the beginning, and is using the religious persecution argument to get away with it. Having said that, I don't think throwing him in jail is warranted."
    Last edited by Beretta92FSLady; 07-29-2012 at 04:10 PM.
    I don't mind watching the OC-Community (tea party 2.0's, who have hijacked the OC-Community) cannibalize itself. I do mind watching OC dragged through the gutter. OC is an exercise of A Right. I choose to not OC; I choose to not own firearms. I choose to leave the OC-Community to it's own self-inflicted injuries, and eventual implosion. Carry on...

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    State Researcher lockman's Avatar
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    I disagree, the zoning laws of this nature should only be applicable if it is a commercial use. Under that same city theory a weekly gathering of neighbors and friends can lead to enforcement of ADA and other laws applicable to commercial establishments.

    And this "occasional" provision is very vague. It is either a crime or not. I can imagine if that standard were applied to more serious crimes. How about an occasional armed robbery or rape is overlooked unless you do it regularly.

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    Founder's Club Member thebigsd's Avatar
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    15-20 people is not a lot on a 4 1/2 acre property. This story stinks... What if someone had 25 people over for a party every Friday night? Would they enforce the ordinance then? How do they go about enforcin this law evenly? What happened to private property?

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    Anytime you are holding a gathering of people continuously as he does, we have concerns about people being able to exit the facility properly in case there is a fire."

    Time to start holding routine meetings to change zoning laws! And if they are worried about egress, then a one time "over capacity" issue would be a concern...repeated meetings? Red herring.

    I guess our freedom of assembly is not well liked in AZ.

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    Regular Member Jack House's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by lockman View Post
    I disagree, the zoning laws of this nature should only be applicable if it is a commercial use. Under that same city theory a weekly gathering of neighbors and friends can lead to enforcement of ADA and other laws applicable to commercial establishments.

    And this "occasional" provision is very vague. It is either a crime or not. I can imagine if that standard were applied to more serious crimes. How about an occasional armed robbery or rape is overlooked unless you do it regularly.
    Quote Originally Posted by thebigsd View Post
    15-20 people is not a lot on a 4 1/2 acre property. This story stinks... What if someone had 25 people over for a party every Friday night? Would they enforce the ordinance then? How do they go about enforcin this law evenly? What happened to private property?
    Both of these. My family routinely has family friends over for little family gatherings which easily amounts to 15+ people. And we're talking about a tiny, three bedroom duplex. Should our family(our friends are like extended family) be banned from gathering together regularly because we don't have permits?

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    Regular Member Beretta92FSLady's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jack House View Post
    Both of these. My family routinely has family friends over for little family gatherings which easily amounts to 15+ people. And we're talking about a tiny, three bedroom duplex. Should our family(our friends are like extended family) be banned from gathering together regularly because we don't have permits?
    He can call it Bible Study, but it is Church. There is a difference between you having your family over for a BBQ (for example), every week if you liked, and holding a formal church session.--although, I am sure the pastor, the disingenuous man that he appears to be, would prefer to call the meeting not formal. The pastor described in the article how church was done 'back in the day'. There is Intent, and Actual Intent; seeing how the pastor would prefer to play with terminology, the city, and the court, were forced to go with Actual Intent, since the pastor can't see through his own delusion of what is really going on at his so-called Bible Study Group.
    Last edited by Beretta92FSLady; 07-29-2012 at 08:54 PM.
    I don't mind watching the OC-Community (tea party 2.0's, who have hijacked the OC-Community) cannibalize itself. I do mind watching OC dragged through the gutter. OC is an exercise of A Right. I choose to not OC; I choose to not own firearms. I choose to leave the OC-Community to it's own self-inflicted injuries, and eventual implosion. Carry on...

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    Regular Member OC for ME's Avatar
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    http://www.phoenixnewtimes.com/relat...ichael+Salman/

    There is a great deal more to this than is 'occasionally' reported.
    "I would rather be exposed to the inconveniences attending too much liberty than to those attending too small a degree of it." - Thomas Jefferson.

    "Better that ten guilty persons escape, than that one innocent suffer" - English jurist William Blackstone.
    It is AFAIK original to me. Compromise is failure on the installment plan, particularly when dealing with so intractable an opponent as ignorance. - Nightmare

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    Regular Member sudden valley gunner's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Beretta92FSLady View Post
    He can call it Bible Study, but it is Church. There is a difference between you having your family over for a BBQ (for example), every week if you liked, and holding a formal church session.--although, I am sure the pastor, the disingenuous man that he appears to be, would prefer to call the meeting not formal. The pastor described in the article how church was done 'back in the day'. There is Intent, and Actual Intent; seeing how the pastor would prefer to play with terminology, the city, and the court, were forced to go with Actual Intent, since the pastor can't see through his own delusion of what is really going on at his so-called Bible Study Group.
    Who cares and why would it be different?
    I am not anti Cop I am just pro Citizen.

    U.S. v. Minker, 350 US 179, at page 187
    "Because of what appears to be a lawful command on the surface, many citizens, because
    of their respect for what only appears to be a law, are cunningly coerced into waiving their
    rights, due to ignorance." (Paraphrased)

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    Campaign Veteran since9's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ca Patriot View Post
    This is America, freedom and liberty left here about 100 years ago.
    That's pure defeatist B.S., Ca Patriot, and you know it.

    As an American Patriot who spent twenty years of my life fighting for our freedoms and our liberties both here and abroad, getting shot at and loosing good friends and compatriots in the process, I find your remark insulting to their sacrifices.

    Freedom and Liberty remain, but we have to fight for it, every day. That's never changed. It was true more than ten thousand years ago when the first Americans had to eek out an existence in a new and foreign land, often against rival tribes. It was true thousands of years later, when settlers arrived from other continents within the last 500 years. I was true when our Founding Fathers agreed it was time to throw off an oppressive government, one for whom injustice had become routine, one hundred years later when our nation was torn asunder by significant cultural and ideological differences, and decades later when oppressive governments attacked us while subjugating our allies, killing millions in the process, not once, but twice.

    It remains true today, and will always be true, for the tide of injustice and human suffering at the hands of other humans will always be with us, so long as there remains greed and avarice among us, whenever the love of money eclipses virtues necessary for our common good.

    Defeatism is not one of those virtues.

    A patriot doesn't disparage his duty. He welcomes it, accepting the responsibility gladly, knowing that by determination and effort, he can make a difference, sometimes in his own lifetime, but surely in the lives of those to follow.

    I accept my duty as an American Patriot. I took my oath of office seriously when I first took it back in the late '80s, and I take it seriously now. Our nation is threatened, yes. Our enemies, both foreign and domestic have made advances into our society and threaten to undermine our Freedom and our Liberty, but they haven't won, not yet. As one who has visited more than thirty countries, and seen first-hand the depravity and oppression in many, I can assure you although we're not perfect, we're better than most.

    Our Founding Fathers had a dream, a vision of something wonderful, and it was well worth fighting for.

    It still is.
    The First protects the Second, and the Second protects the First. Together, they protect the rest of our Bill of Rights and our United States Constitution, and help We the People protect ourselves in the spirit of our Declaration of Independence.

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    Founder's Club Member thebigsd's Avatar
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    Thank you since9, you nailed it buddy!

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    Regular Member sudden valley gunner's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by since9 View Post
    That's pure defeatist B.S., Ca Patriot, and you know it.

    As an American Patriot who spent twenty years of my life fighting for our freedoms and our liberties both here and abroad, getting shot at and loosing good friends and compatriots in the process, I find your remark insulting to their sacrifices.

    Freedom and Liberty remain, but we have to fight for it, every day. That's never changed. It was true more than ten thousand years ago when the first Americans had to eek out an existence in a new and foreign land, often against rival tribes. It was true thousands of years later, when settlers arrived from other continents within the last 500 years. I was true when our Founding Fathers agreed it was time to throw off an oppressive government, one for whom injustice had become routine, one hundred years later when our nation was torn asunder by significant cultural and ideological differences, and decades later when oppressive governments attacked us while subjugating our allies, killing millions in the process, not once, but twice.

    It remains true today, and will always be true, for the tide of injustice and human suffering at the hands of other humans will always be with us, so long as there remains greed and avarice among us, whenever the love of money eclipses virtues necessary for our common good.

    Defeatism is not one of those virtues.

    A patriot doesn't disparage his duty. He welcomes it, accepting the responsibility gladly, knowing that by determination and effort, he can make a difference, sometimes in his own lifetime, but surely in the lives of those to follow.

    I accept my duty as an American Patriot. I took my oath of office seriously when I first took it back in the late '80s, and I take it seriously now. Our nation is threatened, yes. Our enemies, both foreign and domestic have made advances into our society and threaten to undermine our Freedom and our Liberty, but they haven't won, not yet. As one who has visited more than thirty countries, and seen first-hand the depravity and oppression in many, I can assure you although we're not perfect, we're better than most.

    Our Founding Fathers had a dream, a vision of something wonderful, and it was well worth fighting for.

    It still is.
    Please explain how you fought for our freedoms. I haven't seen a war this past century that protected our freedoms. I have seen the steady erosion of our freedoms, due to war, and crisis that are not allowed to go to waste. The huge increase in "defense" spending (they really should name this "offense" spending would be more accurate).
    I am not anti Cop I am just pro Citizen.

    U.S. v. Minker, 350 US 179, at page 187
    "Because of what appears to be a lawful command on the surface, many citizens, because
    of their respect for what only appears to be a law, are cunningly coerced into waiving their
    rights, due to ignorance." (Paraphrased)

  13. #13
    Regular Member twoskinsonemanns's Avatar
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    I love your optimism guys, but the truth is our freedom is becoming more of an illusion than ever.
    This is a prime example. We are unbelievably over-regulated. I personally think church in general is a bad idea but this type of move IMHO seems to be specific and tactical. The best way to prevent another Waco type fiasco is to keep religious people from gathering in large groups privately. The government is doing a pretty good job of it.
    "I support the ban on assault weapons" - Donald Trump

    We are fast approaching the stage of the ultimate inversion: the stage where the government is free to do anything it pleases, while the citizens may act only by permission - Ayn Rand

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    Regular Member sudden valley gunner's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ca Patriot View Post
    I think WWII was about freedom. The Japanese were intent on invading America and were in the process. I have to assume that if America did nothing during that war that Japan and Germany would have invaded.
    Only if you buy into the propoganda by the victors.

    Both Germany and Japan were reluctant.

    FDR was intent on maneuvering us into war, they just need (like Lincoln) to manipulate the foreigners into firing the first shot.

    Hitler killed a million (we didn't know about) FDR's beloved "Uncle Joe" killed millions we did know about and our politicians gave half of Europe to him........

    WWII was a great way of spending, Fed's printed money, using up ammo and increasing the industrial war machine that has steadily increased since then.
    Last edited by sudden valley gunner; 08-01-2012 at 10:20 PM.
    I am not anti Cop I am just pro Citizen.

    U.S. v. Minker, 350 US 179, at page 187
    "Because of what appears to be a lawful command on the surface, many citizens, because
    of their respect for what only appears to be a law, are cunningly coerced into waiving their
    rights, due to ignorance." (Paraphrased)

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