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Thread: Protecting our freedoms and the current/recent wars

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    Regular Member Jack House's Avatar
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    Protecting our freedoms and the current/recent wars

    A lot of people argue that the men and women in the military lost their lives in middle east protecting our freedom. But did they really? Who were they protecting our freedom from? Last I checked, the biggest threat to our freedom is occupying capitol hill.

    So let's hear it, guys, how are they protecting our freedoms? This debate is not intended as neither an anti-war nor anti-military argument. That, I believe, is a different discussion. This is just a discussion on which of our freedoms are being protected by these wars, because I can point to many that have been lost due to them.

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    I have always thought the same thing. The scum that are in the white house have done more to take away are freedoms than any other country. IMHO. I do believe we need to carry the bigger stick though,when other countries are a threat.

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    Regular Member Guido's Avatar
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    I agree and have often wondered the same thing, as I don't really see which of our freedoms were/are at stake if we didn't/don't fight these wars.

    When I see what is happening today with our government I am reminded of a series of books written by David Weber called the Honor Harrington series, The government of the Peoples Republic of Haven(from this series) really reminds me of our current government and the political discussions for the reason for some of their wars really disturbs me.

    There are some really strong parallels to the military and the police state that our country is evolving into. Too bad these are science fiction books
    Last edited by Guido; 07-29-2012 at 08:50 PM. Reason: Removed a double word post

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    I must chime in with my agreement. It's one of the main reasons that I've steered my children away from volunteering for military service. They will be the first generation in our family not to have served in some capacity.

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    Regular Member Beretta92FSLady's Avatar
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    War that doesn't involve fighting back an invasion contributes zero to retaining or gaining any Freedom. Basically, Iraq, Afghanistan, Vietnam, had zero to do with American Freedom being at risk.--I will state that all of those contributed to our loss of Freedom, and a swelling of the Industrial Military Complex in the US; what does one expect when a half a trillion dollars per year are devoted to the Complex? Americans helped build this bed, now we must sleep in it.
    I don't mind watching the OC-Community (tea party 2.0's, who have hijacked the OC-Community) cannibalize itself. I do mind watching OC dragged through the gutter. OC is an exercise of A Right. I choose to not OC; I choose to not own firearms. I choose to leave the OC-Community to it's own self-inflicted injuries, and eventual implosion. Carry on...

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    Regular Member Beretta92FSLady's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ca Patriot View Post
    [snippers]

    Al-Qaeda has never and will never take away my freedoms and liberty. They can however kill me.[snippers]
    Yes, they can take away your Liberty, and Freedom--it's called Stoking Irrational Fear, and the spawn of that fear: The Patriot Act I, II.... Our Freedom is efficiently, and effectively eroded with Fear--the State has perfected it over decades of studying human behavior.
    I don't mind watching the OC-Community (tea party 2.0's, who have hijacked the OC-Community) cannibalize itself. I do mind watching OC dragged through the gutter. OC is an exercise of A Right. I choose to not OC; I choose to not own firearms. I choose to leave the OC-Community to it's own self-inflicted injuries, and eventual implosion. Carry on...

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    Regular Member Jack House's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Beretta92FSLady View Post
    Yes, they can take away your Liberty, and Freedom--it's called Stoking Irrational Fear, and the spawn of that fear: The Patriot Act I, II.... Our Freedom is efficiently, and effectively eroded with Fear--the State has perfected it over decades of studying human behavior.
    I was waiting for someone to come in with the cause and effect argument. I'm just kind of surprised it was you. But in hindsight, it makes sense.

    I disagree. A lot of that fear stems from congress, the politicians telling us about the big bad boogey man trying to get us. They also had a choice, a choice to not give into any fear they may have felt. But even if you wanted to accept the cause and effect argument, it only explains PATRIOT Act I, not the sequel. There hasn't been a serious attack or even threat of attack since 9/11. There's been a few minor incidences and a couple big ones over seas. But nothing domestic on US soil in the last 10 years.

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    Quote Originally Posted by wethepeople View Post
    The scum that are in the white house have done more to take away are freedoms than any other country.
    Quote Originally Posted by Guido View Post
    I agree and have often wondered the same thing, as I don't really see which of our freedoms were/are at stake if we didn't/don't fight these wars.
    Agreed. Our government uses the words 'freedoms' and 'safeties' interchangeably until sheeple think it's the same thing.

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    Regular Member OC for ME's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jack House View Post
    I was waiting for someone to come in with the cause and effect argument. I'm just kind of surprised it was you. But in hindsight, it makes sense.

    I disagree. A lot of that fear stems from congress, the politicians telling us about the big bad boogey man trying to get us. They also had a choice, a choice to not give into any fear they may have felt. But even if you wanted to accept the cause and effect argument, it only explains PATRIOT Act I, not the sequel. There hasn't been a serious attack or even threat of attack since 9/11. There's been a few minor incidences and a couple big ones over seas. But nothing domestic on US soil in the last 10 years.
    ....and who exactly is responsible for our elected officials enacting these troublesome laws?
    "I would rather be exposed to the inconveniences attending too much liberty than to those attending too small a degree of it." - Thomas Jefferson.

    "Better that ten guilty persons escape, than that one innocent suffer" - English jurist William Blackstone.
    It is AFAIK original to me. Compromise is failure on the installment plan, particularly when dealing with so intractable an opponent as ignorance. - Nightmare

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    Regular Member Beretta92FSLady's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jack House View Post
    I was waiting for someone to come in with the cause and effect argument. I'm just kind of surprised it was you. But in hindsight, it makes sense.

    I disagree. A lot of that fear stems from congress, the politicians telling us about the big bad boogey man trying to get us. They also had a choice, a choice to not give into any fear they may have felt. But even if you wanted to accept the cause and effect argument, it only explains PATRIOT Act I, not the sequel. There hasn't been a serious attack or even threat of attack since 9/11. There's been a few minor incidences and a couple big ones over seas. But nothing domestic on US soil in the last 10 years.
    I was wrong to state Patriot Act I, and II.--you are correct, Patriot Act I, yes, but not II. Fort Hood wasn't a terrorist attack? The so-called D.C Snipers weren't terrorists? The Anthrax postal attacks?--we could pick those examples down as not being terrorist attacks, but I think you know where I am going with it, albeit loosely, I admit.

    I am not stating that Politicians felt fear, IMO, it was a Power Grab, and politically motivated.
    I don't mind watching the OC-Community (tea party 2.0's, who have hijacked the OC-Community) cannibalize itself. I do mind watching OC dragged through the gutter. OC is an exercise of A Right. I choose to not OC; I choose to not own firearms. I choose to leave the OC-Community to it's own self-inflicted injuries, and eventual implosion. Carry on...

  11. #11
    Regular Member Jack House's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by OC for ME View Post
    ....and who exactly is responsible for our elected officials enacting these troublesome laws?
    If you have a point, could you get to it?
    Quote Originally Posted by Beretta92FSLady View Post
    I was wrong to state Patriot Act I, and II.--you are correct, Patriot Act I, yes, but not II. Fort Hood wasn't a terrorist attack? The so-called D.C Snipers weren't terrorists? The Anthrax postal attacks?--we could pick those examples down as not being terrorist attacks, but I think you know where I am going with it, albeit loosely, I admit.
    One guy running around with a rifle shooting people is not a major attack. A couple letters containing anthrax and a million more fakes is not a major attack. One guy going on a rampage at Ft. Hood is not a major attack, even if it was a Major that attacked.

    I said there were a few minor instances, but nothing even close to the scale of the 9/11 attacks.

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    Regular Member OC for ME's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jack House View Post
    If you have a point, could you get to it?
    Nope, if you are incapable of figuring this one out you're on your own.....sorry.
    "I would rather be exposed to the inconveniences attending too much liberty than to those attending too small a degree of it." - Thomas Jefferson.

    "Better that ten guilty persons escape, than that one innocent suffer" - English jurist William Blackstone.
    It is AFAIK original to me. Compromise is failure on the installment plan, particularly when dealing with so intractable an opponent as ignorance. - Nightmare

  13. #13
    Regular Member sudden valley gunner's Avatar
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    None of the wars we fought in protected our freedom.....

    Fed was created....Then War after war after war.

    You have to spend the secret thieving of the value of your money somewhere.

    I have high respect for warriors/soldiers....I hold the politicians who lie to them about why they are there in total disregard.

    It has been progressive after progressive (socialist, fascist communist etc) who have unnecessarily involved us in these wars.

    Lincoln, Woodrow Wilson, FDR, LBJ, Bush, Obama
    I am not anti Cop I am just pro Citizen.

    U.S. v. Minker, 350 US 179, at page 187
    "Because of what appears to be a lawful command on the surface, many citizens, because
    of their respect for what only appears to be a law, are cunningly coerced into waiving their
    rights, due to ignorance." (Paraphrased)

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    Campaign Veteran Schlitz's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jack House View Post
    One guy going on a rampage at Ft. Hood is not a major attack, even if it was a Major that attacked.
    “The claim and exercise of a constitutional right cannot be converted into a crime.”
    [Miller vs. U.S., 230 F. Supp. 486, 489 (1956)]
    “There can be no sanction or penalty imposed upon one because of his exercise of constitutional rights.”
    [Sherar vs. Cullen, 481 F2d. 946 (1973)]

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    Regular Member Jack House's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by OC for ME View Post
    Nope, if you are incapable of figuring this one out you're on your own.....sorry.
    I'm sorry, I wasn't aware that I was responsible to constructing your arguments and creating your points for you, oh great one.

    So let me give it a shot, Santa Claus is responsible for the laws and policies that the fed has created and forced on us, quite violently I might add. He has brain washed and now controls Congress, The Senate, POTUS, members of the administration and the heads of various alphabet soup groups. So I guess this leaves us with only one option. We must bombard the North Pole with every bomb and missile we have! A threat this serious requires a serious response, we have no choice but to respond with thermonuclear warheads.

    CRY HAVOC AND LET SLIP THE RADIATION OF OUR MISSILES!

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    Regular Member Freedom First's Avatar
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    Ike warned our Grandparents...

    All these so called wars for the protection fo Freedom relate back to this warning about the Military-Industrial Complex. The important part starts at 8:15



    This is not a generally accepted or popular position since we have been trained for the last decade that the lives spent are done in our defense. Not true.

    Here's another good example of your government betraying your trust and in this case, 68,000 Americans died.

    Quote Originally Posted by http://www.commondreams.org/headlines05/1202-06.htm
    Vietnam War Intelligence 'Deliberately Skewed,' Secret Study Says
    by Scott Shane

    WASHINGTON - The National Security Agency has released hundreds of pages of long-secret documents on the 1964 Gulf of Tonkin incident, which played a critical role in significantly expanding the American commitment to the Vietnam War.

    The material, posted on the Internet overnight Wednesday, included one of the largest collections of secret intercepted communications ever made available. The most provocative document is a 2001 article in which an agency historian argued that the agency's intelligence officers "deliberately skewed" the evidence passed on to policy makers and the public to falsely suggest that North Vietnamese ships had attacked American destroyers on Aug. 4, 1964.

    Based on the assertion that such an attack had occurred, President Lyndon B. Johnson ordered airstrikes on North Vietnam and Congress passed a broad resolution authorizing military action.

    The historian, Robert J. Hanyok, wrote the article in an internal publication and it was classified top secret despite the fact that it dealt with events in 1964 (This was a 2001 article). Word of Mr. Hanyok's findings leaked to historians outside the agency, who requested the article under the Freedom of Information Act in 2003.
    Nice.
    Freedom can never be lost, only given away by ignorance, by choice, or at the point of a gun. Here in America we can still choose.

    Freedom First 1775

    "I aim to misbehave..." Malcolm Reynolds

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    Regular Member Beretta92FSLady's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ca Patriot View Post
    did you even bother to read my post or do you just consider your god given mission to argue in every post with every person over things they didnt even say ?
    I reade your fancy post.

    I am a Nihilist--some have accused me of being a cynicist--, I argue with myself--what makes you any different?
    I don't mind watching the OC-Community (tea party 2.0's, who have hijacked the OC-Community) cannibalize itself. I do mind watching OC dragged through the gutter. OC is an exercise of A Right. I choose to not OC; I choose to not own firearms. I choose to leave the OC-Community to it's own self-inflicted injuries, and eventual implosion. Carry on...

  18. #18
    Regular Member OC for ME's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jack House View Post
    I'm sorry, I wasn't aware that I was responsible to constructing your arguments and creating your points for you, oh great one.

    So let me give it a shot, Santa Claus is responsible for the laws and policies that the fed has created and forced on us, quite violently I might add. He has brain washed and now controls Congress, The Senate, POTUS, members of the administration and the heads of various alphabet soup groups. So I guess this leaves us with only one option. We must bombard the North Pole with every bomb and missile we have! A threat this serious requires a serious response, we have no choice but to respond with thermonuclear warheads.

    CRY HAVOC AND LET SLIP THE RADIATION OF OUR MISSILES!
    Maybe.....sure, go ahead, if that is what you wish to think.

    Me, I chide my neighbor, I know who he voted for.
    "I would rather be exposed to the inconveniences attending too much liberty than to those attending too small a degree of it." - Thomas Jefferson.

    "Better that ten guilty persons escape, than that one innocent suffer" - English jurist William Blackstone.
    It is AFAIK original to me. Compromise is failure on the installment plan, particularly when dealing with so intractable an opponent as ignorance. - Nightmare

  19. #19
    Campaign Veteran since9's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Beretta92FSLady View Post
    I reade your fancy post.

    I am a Nihilist...
    In short, CA Patriot, no - B92FS has not read your post. Why should he? After all, a nihilist is one with "a viewpoint that traditional values and beliefs are unfounded and that existence is senseless and useless b : a doctrine that denies any objective ground of truth and especially of moral truths." - Merriam Webster. Furthermore, by definition, the nihilist believes "that conditions in the social organization are so bad as to make destruction desirable for its own sake independent of any constructive program or possibility." By definition, the only reason for B92FS to ever read anyone's post is to destroy it.

    FYI, Nihilism's roots are in a 19th century Russian party advocating revolutionary reform and using terrorism and assassination. So, if you take B92FS's posts with that rather large block of salt, they'll be more palatable.
    The First protects the Second, and the Second protects the First. Together, they protect the rest of our Bill of Rights and our United States Constitution, and help We the People protect ourselves in the spirit of our Declaration of Independence.

  20. #20
    Regular Member Beretta92FSLady's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by since9 View Post
    In short, CA Patriot, no - B92FS has not read your post. Why should he? After all, a nihilist is one with "a viewpoint that traditional values and beliefs are unfounded and that existence is senseless and useless b : a doctrine that denies any objective ground of truth and especially of moral truths." - Merriam Webster. Furthermore, by definition, the nihilist believes "that conditions in the social organization are so bad as to make destruction desirable for its own sake independent of any constructive program or possibility." By definition, the only reason for B92FS to ever read anyone's post is to destroy it.

    FYI, Nihilism's roots are in a 19th century Russian party advocating revolutionary reform and using terrorism and assassination. So, if you take B92FS's posts with that rather large block of salt, they'll be more palatable.
    I reade the posts, and responded accordingly. Not that existence is senseless and useless, just that there is no intrinsic value to it. There is zero Objective ground of Truth, that is, perceivable by any of us--if there is such a Truth, or set of Truths, we will never see it. Nihilism does cover all of those things you outlined, but is not the culmination of A Nihilist. Nihilism is not a set of things, rather, it spans things.--but with any philosophical position (or stance), there is not The Nihilist, there is only A Nihilist.
    Last edited by Beretta92FSLady; 07-31-2012 at 04:10 PM.
    I don't mind watching the OC-Community (tea party 2.0's, who have hijacked the OC-Community) cannibalize itself. I do mind watching OC dragged through the gutter. OC is an exercise of A Right. I choose to not OC; I choose to not own firearms. I choose to leave the OC-Community to it's own self-inflicted injuries, and eventual implosion. Carry on...

  21. #21
    Regular Member DCKilla's Avatar
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    This is very interesting topic that most Americans will not discuss or be ridiculed for even speaking of it. Frankly, I was one of those folks who believed that troops fought for or freedom every time the walked out the door. But in the past couple of years my perspective has changed.
    Well, the last time our freedom as a country was fought for would have to be the Revolutionary War. Everything else was for unification, peace, and/or safety.

  22. #22
    Regular Member sudden valley gunner's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by DCKilla View Post
    This is very interesting topic that most Americans will not discuss or be ridiculed for even speaking of it. Frankly, I was one of those folks who believed that troops fought for or freedom every time the walked out the door. But in the past couple of years my perspective has changed.
    Well, the last time our freedom as a country was fought for would have to be the Revolutionary War. Everything else was for unification, peace, and/or safety.
    Yep...all in the name of centralized Federal control. Which has given us more division, less peace and definitely less safety......
    I am not anti Cop I am just pro Citizen.

    U.S. v. Minker, 350 US 179, at page 187
    "Because of what appears to be a lawful command on the surface, many citizens, because
    of their respect for what only appears to be a law, are cunningly coerced into waiving their
    rights, due to ignorance." (Paraphrased)

  23. #23
    Regular Member DCKilla's Avatar
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    I posted this question on my facebook page.

    When was the last time our troops fought for our freedom?

    Oh boy, talk about a firestorm of emotion. This came mainly from my father-in-law (ret. navy captain) and sister-in-law. I tell you what. This country may not be ready for this debate.
    Last edited by DCKilla; 07-31-2012 at 10:51 PM.

  24. #24
    Regular Member DCKilla's Avatar
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    Here is an interesting video. I have some issues with her opinion about Afghanistan, but for the most part on topic.


  25. #25
    Campaign Veteran MAC702's Avatar
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    I'm a US Navy veteran. Not once did I fight for your freedom.

    I did help put a dictator back into office in Haiti once, though.

    BUT, I was there READY to fight for your freedom. The problem is not in the military, but in its political puppet masters.
    "It's not important how many people I've killed. What's important is how I get along with the people who are still alive" - Jimmy the Tulip

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