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Protecting our freedoms and the current/recent wars

Jack House

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A lot of people argue that the men and women in the military lost their lives in middle east protecting our freedom. But did they really? Who were they protecting our freedom from? Last I checked, the biggest threat to our freedom is occupying capitol hill.

So let's hear it, guys, how are they protecting our freedoms? This debate is not intended as neither an anti-war nor anti-military argument. That, I believe, is a different discussion. This is just a discussion on which of our freedoms are being protected by these wars, because I can point to many that have been lost due to them.
 

nobama

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I have always thought the same thing. The scum that are in the white house have done more to take away are freedoms than any other country. IMHO. I do believe we need to carry the bigger stick though,when other countries are a threat.
 

Guido

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I agree and have often wondered the same thing, as I don't really see which of our freedoms were/are at stake if we didn't/don't fight these wars.

When I see what is happening today with our government I am reminded of a series of books written by David Weber called the Honor Harrington series, The government of the Peoples Republic of Haven(from this series) really reminds me of our current government and the political discussions for the reason for some of their wars really disturbs me.

There are some really strong parallels to the military and the police state that our country is evolving into. Too bad these are science fiction books :)
 
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JmE

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I must chime in with my agreement. It's one of the main reasons that I've steered my children away from volunteering for military service. They will be the first generation in our family not to have served in some capacity.
 

Ca Patriot

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I agree with the OP and I got into a seriously bad situtation at a party with military folks back in 2008 when I said it.

There is a big difference between freedom and security/safety.

Personally I believe the war in Afghanistan was about Americans security and safety but not about our freedoms and liberties.

Al-Qaeda has never and will never take away my freedoms and liberty. They can however kill me.

Congress cant kill me but they can take away my freedoms and liberties and they do it all the time.

I think Alan Gura has done alot more for my freedom and liberty than the US military in the last 50 years.

The biggest robber of my freedom and liberty has been state and federal governments in the US. Unfortunatly, the US military cant or wont storm the capitol building.
 
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Beretta92FSLady

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War that doesn't involve fighting back an invasion contributes zero to retaining or gaining any Freedom. Basically, Iraq, Afghanistan, Vietnam, had zero to do with American Freedom being at risk.--I will state that all of those contributed to our loss of Freedom, and a swelling of the Industrial Military Complex in the US; what does one expect when a half a trillion dollars per year are devoted to the Complex? Americans helped build this bed, now we must sleep in it.
 

Beretta92FSLady

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[snippers]

Al-Qaeda has never and will never take away my freedoms and liberty. They can however kill me.[snippers]

Yes, they can take away your Liberty, and Freedom--it's called Stoking Irrational Fear, and the spawn of that fear: The Patriot Act I, II.... Our Freedom is efficiently, and effectively eroded with Fear--the State has perfected it over decades of studying human behavior.
 

Jack House

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Yes, they can take away your Liberty, and Freedom--it's called Stoking Irrational Fear, and the spawn of that fear: The Patriot Act I, II.... Our Freedom is efficiently, and effectively eroded with Fear--the State has perfected it over decades of studying human behavior.
I was waiting for someone to come in with the cause and effect argument. I'm just kind of surprised it was you. But in hindsight, it makes sense.

I disagree. A lot of that fear stems from congress, the politicians telling us about the big bad boogey man trying to get us. They also had a choice, a choice to not give into any fear they may have felt. But even if you wanted to accept the cause and effect argument, it only explains PATRIOT Act I, not the sequel. There hasn't been a serious attack or even threat of attack since 9/11. There's been a few minor incidences and a couple big ones over seas. But nothing domestic on US soil in the last 10 years.
 

PistolPackingMomma

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The scum that are in the white house have done more to take away are freedoms than any other country.

I agree and have often wondered the same thing, as I don't really see which of our freedoms were/are at stake if we didn't/don't fight these wars.

Agreed. Our government uses the words 'freedoms' and 'safeties' interchangeably until sheeple think it's the same thing.
 

OC for ME

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I was waiting for someone to come in with the cause and effect argument. I'm just kind of surprised it was you. But in hindsight, it makes sense.

I disagree. A lot of that fear stems from congress, the politicians telling us about the big bad boogey man trying to get us. They also had a choice, a choice to not give into any fear they may have felt. But even if you wanted to accept the cause and effect argument, it only explains PATRIOT Act I, not the sequel. There hasn't been a serious attack or even threat of attack since 9/11. There's been a few minor incidences and a couple big ones over seas. But nothing domestic on US soil in the last 10 years.
....and who exactly is responsible for our elected officials enacting these troublesome laws?
 

Beretta92FSLady

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I was waiting for someone to come in with the cause and effect argument. I'm just kind of surprised it was you. But in hindsight, it makes sense.

I disagree. A lot of that fear stems from congress, the politicians telling us about the big bad boogey man trying to get us. They also had a choice, a choice to not give into any fear they may have felt. But even if you wanted to accept the cause and effect argument, it only explains PATRIOT Act I, not the sequel. There hasn't been a serious attack or even threat of attack since 9/11. There's been a few minor incidences and a couple big ones over seas. But nothing domestic on US soil in the last 10 years.

I was wrong to state Patriot Act I, and II.--you are correct, Patriot Act I, yes, but not II. Fort Hood wasn't a terrorist attack? The so-called D.C Snipers weren't terrorists? The Anthrax postal attacks?--we could pick those examples down as not being terrorist attacks, but I think you know where I am going with it, albeit loosely, I admit.

I am not stating that Politicians felt fear, IMO, it was a Power Grab, and politically motivated.
 

Jack House

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....and who exactly is responsible for our elected officials enacting these troublesome laws?
If you have a point, could you get to it?
I was wrong to state Patriot Act I, and II.--you are correct, Patriot Act I, yes, but not II. Fort Hood wasn't a terrorist attack? The so-called D.C Snipers weren't terrorists? The Anthrax postal attacks?--we could pick those examples down as not being terrorist attacks, but I think you know where I am going with it, albeit loosely, I admit.
One guy running around with a rifle shooting people is not a major attack. A couple letters containing anthrax and a million more fakes is not a major attack. One guy going on a rampage at Ft. Hood is not a major attack, even if it was a Major that attacked. :uhoh:

I said there were a few minor instances, but nothing even close to the scale of the 9/11 attacks.
 

sudden valley gunner

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None of the wars we fought in protected our freedom.....

Fed was created....Then War after war after war.

You have to spend the secret thieving of the value of your money somewhere.

I have high respect for warriors/soldiers....I hold the politicians who lie to them about why they are there in total disregard.

It has been progressive after progressive (socialist, fascist communist etc) who have unnecessarily involved us in these wars.

Lincoln, Woodrow Wilson, FDR, LBJ, Bush, Obama
 

RetiredOC

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One guy going on a rampage at Ft. Hood is not a major attack, even if it was a Major that attacked. :uhoh:

well_played_sir.jpg
 

Jack House

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Nope, if you are incapable of figuring this one out you're on your own.....sorry.
I'm sorry, I wasn't aware that I was responsible to constructing your arguments and creating your points for you, oh great one. :rolleyes:

So let me give it a shot, Santa Claus is responsible for the laws and policies that the fed has created and forced on us, quite violently I might add. He has brain washed and now controls Congress, The Senate, POTUS, members of the administration and the heads of various alphabet soup groups. So I guess this leaves us with only one option. We must bombard the North Pole with every bomb and missile we have! A threat this serious requires a serious response, we have no choice but to respond with thermonuclear warheads.

CRY HAVOC AND LET SLIP THE RADIATION OF OUR MISSILES!
 

Freedom First

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Ike warned our Grandparents...

All these so called wars for the protection fo Freedom relate back to this warning about the Military-Industrial Complex. The important part starts at 8:15

[video=youtube;CWiIYW_fBfY]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CWiIYW_fBfY&feature=related[/video]

This is not a generally accepted or popular position since we have been trained for the last decade that the lives spent are done in our defense. Not true.

Here's another good example of your government betraying your trust and in this case, 68,000 Americans died.

http://www.commondreams.org/headlines05/1202-06.htm said:
Vietnam War Intelligence 'Deliberately Skewed,' Secret Study Says
by Scott Shane

WASHINGTON - The National Security Agency has released hundreds of pages of long-secret documents on the 1964 Gulf of Tonkin incident, which played a critical role in significantly expanding the American commitment to the Vietnam War.

The material, posted on the Internet overnight Wednesday, included one of the largest collections of secret intercepted communications ever made available. The most provocative document is a 2001 article in which an agency historian argued that the agency's intelligence officers "deliberately skewed" the evidence passed on to policy makers and the public to falsely suggest that North Vietnamese ships had attacked American destroyers on Aug. 4, 1964.

Based on the assertion that such an attack had occurred, President Lyndon B. Johnson ordered airstrikes on North Vietnam and Congress passed a broad resolution authorizing military action.

The historian, Robert J. Hanyok, wrote the article in an internal publication and it was classified top secret despite the fact that it dealt with events in 1964 (This was a 2001 article). Word of Mr. Hanyok's findings leaked to historians outside the agency, who requested the article under the Freedom of Information Act in 2003.

Nice.
 

Ca Patriot

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Yes, they can take away your Liberty, and Freedom--it's called Stoking Irrational Fear, and the spawn of that fear: The Patriot Act I, II.... Our Freedom is efficiently, and effectively eroded with Fear--the State has perfected it over decades of studying human behavior.

did you even bother to read my post or do you just consider your god given mission to argue in every post with every person over things they didnt even say ?
 

Beretta92FSLady

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did you even bother to read my post or do you just consider your god given mission to argue in every post with every person over things they didnt even say ?

I reade your fancy post.

I am a Nihilist--some have accused me of being a cynicist--, I argue with myself--what makes you any different?
 

OC for ME

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I'm sorry, I wasn't aware that I was responsible to constructing your arguments and creating your points for you, oh great one. :rolleyes:

So let me give it a shot, Santa Claus is responsible for the laws and policies that the fed has created and forced on us, quite violently I might add. He has brain washed and now controls Congress, The Senate, POTUS, members of the administration and the heads of various alphabet soup groups. So I guess this leaves us with only one option. We must bombard the North Pole with every bomb and missile we have! A threat this serious requires a serious response, we have no choice but to respond with thermonuclear warheads.

CRY HAVOC AND LET SLIP THE RADIATION OF OUR MISSILES!
Maybe.....sure, go ahead, if that is what you wish to think.

Me, I chide my neighbor, I know who he voted for.
 
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