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Thread: Man arrested in Thorton for open carrying in Cine-bar movie theater

  1. #1
    Regular Member Scotsman's Avatar
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    Man arrested in Thorton for open carrying in Cine-bar movie theater

    Hey everybody, I heard about this on KHOW this morning as I was driving in to work.

    http://www.denverpost.com/breakingne...-movie-theater

    Can someone better informed than I please comment on the specifics of what this guy did wrong? I am assuming that since the CineBar theater serves alcohol that this is where this guy tripped up with his open carry??? If so, this won't reflect well on the cause. I'm sure I and others could use clarification on any statutes that prohibit such a scenario... Anyone? Anyone? Bueller???
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    Regular Member Polynikes's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Scotsman View Post
    Hey everybody, I heard about this on KHOW this morning as I was driving in to work.

    http://www.denverpost.com/breakingne...-movie-theater

    Can someone better informed than I please comment on the specifics of what this guy did wrong? I am assuming that since the CineBar theater serves alcohol that this is where this guy tripped up with his open carry??? If so, this won't reflect well on the cause. I'm sure I and others could use clarification on any statutes that prohibit such a scenario... Anyone? Anyone? Bueller???
    Based on the limited info in the story, the gentleman didn't break the law. It's not against the law to carry into a theater or a venue that serves alcohol. My guess is that another patron freaked out and called the police and an officer with little understanding of the law overreacted. I smell a lawsuit on the wind.
    "Liberty lies in the hearts of men and women; when it dies there, no constitution, no law, no court can save it; no constitution, no law, no court can even do much to help it." - Judge Learned Hand

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    Regular Member Scotsman's Avatar
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    Yeah, I'm kind of curious on this one myself. I am curious if he did something illegal or if someone just freaked out. I'm also curious if he was charged with anything if indeed he didn't do anything illegal. I cannot substantiate it but the radio reported that all patrons in the theater were searched for weapons as well. I see a problem with that for sure. It's smacks of the APD tactics when they held all those people at the intersection at gunpoint a couple of months ago.

    Well, I hope the guy sues if he was within the bounds of the law when he open carried in to the theater.
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    Regular Member M-Taliesin's Avatar
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    Howdy Folks!
    Info is a bit limited, but here is what I found:

    http://www.denverpost.com/dontmiss/c...t-into-theater

    http://www.thedenverchannel.com/news...29/detail.html

    http://kwgn.com/2012/07/30/man-arres...movie-theater/

    Each of those links adds a little something to the story overall.

    He was arrested on a muni code violation.
    Can anybody say "Preemption"?
    I anticipate the gentleman arrested is going to be quite wealthy once the suit is prosecuted.
    Respondents should be the City of Thornton, and the movie theater plus their parent company.

    Blessings,
    M-Taliesin

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    Regular Member manveru's Avatar
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    fox 31 is saying he was arrested because they served alcohol there, which last i knew was completely legal unless your in possession of a firearm while under the influence of alcohol. the way it sounds i hope he sues the pants off them.

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    Regular Member Scotsman's Avatar
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    It sounds like he was arrested for something akin to "brandishing" if that last article was correct in its facts. He was carrying a gun in such a manner as to "cause alarm" according to the last article. Sounds like a crock but it also sounds like it was a convenient excuse for Thornton PD to flex their muscle. This is the kind of thing that I dread happening while OC'ing.

    As for the Denver comPost article...what a bunch of jerks. I love how the last snippet of that article ties the Aurora shooter to this event. That paper isn't fit to line a litter box.

    So, the next question is, "I wonder if this guy is a member of this forum?". This event has the potential to spin out of control (in a bad way) given the idiot media in this town. The one article already has comments from readers such as "this guy thinks he's Wyatt Earp", etc.

    Quote Originally Posted by M-Taliesin View Post
    Howdy Folks!
    Info is a bit limited, but here is what I found:

    http://www.denverpost.com/dontmiss/c...t-into-theater

    http://www.thedenverchannel.com/news...29/detail.html

    http://kwgn.com/2012/07/30/man-arres...movie-theater/

    Each of those links adds a little something to the story overall.

    He was arrested on a muni code violation.
    Can anybody say "Preemption"?
    I anticipate the gentleman arrested is going to be quite wealthy once the suit is prosecuted.
    Respondents should be the City of Thornton, and the movie theater plus their parent company.

    Blessings,
    M-Taliesin
    Last edited by Scotsman; 07-30-2012 at 10:01 AM.
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  7. #7
    Regular Member M-Taliesin's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by manveru View Post
    fox 31 is saying he was arrested because they served alcohol there, which last i knew was completely legal unless your in possession of a firearm while under the influence of alcohol. the way it sounds i hope he sues the pants off them.
    Howdy Amigo!
    Hey, good to see you posting again. Haven't seen your handle in awhile.
    Anyhow....
    He is being charged on a muni-code violation.
    Likely as not, it will be thrown out as preempted by state law.
    Once again, we see a locality trying to enforce municipal codes that are preempted by state law.

    Blessings,
    M-Taliesin

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    From the Thornton municipal code;
    "Sec. 38-241. - Prohibition on the open carrying of firearms.

    The City of Thornton hereby prohibits the open carrying of a firearm, as defined in Section 38-237 of the Code, in any city building or in or upon any city property including but not limited to parks, open spaces or trails that exist within the City of Thornton and that have a sign posted at the entrance to any city building or city property informing persons that the open carrying of firearms is prohibited in such building or area. "
    Nothing about a movie theater here.




    I'll have to dig and find it, but there is/ was a case that I read stating that a business that serves alcohol as a Secondary measure, such as a restaurant, movie theater, etc was not bound, above and beyond the fact that he was (assuming) not under the influence of a controlled substance or alcohol.

    This is another perfect example of the uninformed reacting to an individual exercising his rights. In the end, I can only hope that he is free and clear, with the exception of lost time.

    One article I read this morning said that he was carrying, and caused fear to others. Disorderly conduct?? Nope "18-9-106. Disorderly conduct.

    (1) A person commits disorderly conduct if he or she intentionally, knowingly, or recklessly:

    (f) Not being a peace officer, displays a deadly weapon, displays any article used or fashioned in a manner to cause a person to reasonably believe that the article is a deadly weapon, or represents verbally or otherwise that he or she is armed with a deadly weapon in a public place in a manner calculated to alarm.

    (3) An offense under…(1) (f) of this section is a class 2 misdemeanor."

    Menacing?? Nope "18-3-206. Menacing.

    (1) A person commits the crime of menacing if, by any threat or physical action, he or she knowingly places or attempts to place another person in fear of imminent serious bodily injury. Menacing is a class 3 misdemeanor, but, it is a class 5 felony if committed:

    (a) By the use of a deadly weapon or any article used or fashioned in a manner to cause a person to reasonably believe that the article is a deadly weapon; or

    (b) By the person representing verbally or otherwise that he or she is armed with a deadly weapon."

    Reckless endangerment? Nope. "18-3-208. Reckless endangerment



    A person who recklessly engages in conduct which creates a substantial risk of serious bodily injury to another person commits reckless endangerment, which is a class 3 misdemeanor."

    Brandishing? Nope. Taken from Thornton municipal code 38-237-b-5

    "It shall be unlawful for any person to display or flourish a dangerous weapon, firearm, air gun, bludgeon, chemical agent or slingshot in a manner calculated to alarm another person. "

    Any more, its arrest now, "Protect" the uninformed, save face in the media, sort it out later, let the innocent guy go free, and never follow up with the public.
    Last edited by Shadetreezj; 07-30-2012 at 10:09 AM.

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    Quote Originally Posted by M-Taliesin View Post
    Respondents should be the City of Thornton, and the movie theater plus their parent company.
    Would the movie theater and the parent company be held accountable? As I understand it, the owner/ agent has the right to ask you to leave. Whether it be in person or cowering behind the police (as it was).

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    Further digging turned up this from the Thornton municipal code, under the heading of "Thornton, Colorado, Code of Ordinances >> - CODE >> Chapter 42 - LICENSES, PERMITS AND BUSINESSES >> ARTICLE II. - ALCOHOLIC BEVERAGES >> DIVISION 3. - RETAIL ESTABLISHMENTS >> Part III. - Operational Rules >> "

    Sec. 42-156. - Unlawful acts; signs to be posted; violations and penalties.

    (d)

    Each licensee shall post and keep at all times visible to the public in a conspicuous place on the premises signs furnished by the city clerk's office in the following form:

    (1)

    "Warning! Thornton police must be notified of all disturbances in this establishment and on the grounds which are part of this establishment."

    (2)

    "Warning! A fine of up to $1,000.00 and imprisonment up to one year may be levied on any person convicted of carrying or possessing any prohibited, or dangerous weapon, including knives with over 3-inch blades, into or onto any liquor or beer licensed premises."

    It would be a legitimate defense if the theater was not properly marked with the prescribed signage.
    Last edited by Shadetreezj; 07-30-2012 at 10:21 AM.

  11. #11
    Regular Member M-Taliesin's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Shadetreezj View Post
    Would the movie theater and the parent company be held accountable? As I understand it, the owner/ agent has the right to ask you to leave. Whether it be in person or cowering behind the police (as it was).
    Howdy Amigo!
    There is no information provided to suggest the man was asked to leave. They simply panicked, evacuated the theaters, and called the cops.
    No indication whatsoever he was directly approached or spoken with.

    So yeah, on face of it, they would be accountable indeed.

    Likely as not, they didn't even have a sign prohibiting the carry of firearms.

    Noteworthy as well is the fact they keep harping on whether or not he had a CCW permit, when he was open carrying, ergo irrelevant!

    Blessings,
    M-Taliesin

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    Regular Member Scotsman's Avatar
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    I don't like terminology such as "display" because in my mind that is a broad term. Can your weapon be considered "displayed" simply because it's in a holster and in plain sight? I think it's vague verbiage like this that is used to abuse rights. It would be nice to see verbiage to the effect of "if a person is carrying a properly holstered weapon in plain sight on his/her waist it is not considered 'displaying' for the purposes of causing alarm". I'm certainly no legal expert but there should be some type of verbiage that exempts and protects an individual who may be exercising the right to open carry.

    These vague terms are just an excuse to trample our rights.
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  13. #13
    Regular Member M-Taliesin's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Shadetreezj View Post
    Further digging turned up this from the Thornton municipal code, under the heading of "Thornton, Colorado, Code of Ordinances
    It would be a legitimate defense if the theater was not properly marked with the prescribed signage.
    Howdy Amigo!
    Irrelevant. Municipal codes are preempted under state law.
    That's the bottom line. They are trying to circumvent state law preemption language.

    Blessings,
    M-Taliesin

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    Quote Originally Posted by M-Taliesin View Post
    Howdy Amigo!
    Irrelevant. Municipal codes are preempted under state law.
    That's the bottom line. They are trying to circumvent state law preemption language.

    Blessings,
    M-Taliesin

    Do you have a link? As you can tell from the flavor of my posts here, that I am learning the rules of the road. I'm sure that there are other in the same fog as I am.

    Thanks,

    Mike

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    Regular Member M-Taliesin's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Shadetreezj View Post
    Do you have a link? As you can tell from the flavor of my posts here, that I am learning the rules of the road. I'm sure that there are other in the same fog as I am.
    Mike
    Howdy Mike!
    Here you go amigo!

    CRS 29-11.7-103. Regulation - type of firearm - prohibited.
    A local government may not enact an ordinance, regulation, or other law that prohibits the sale, purchase, or possession of a firearm that a person may lawfully sell, purchase, or possess under state or federal law. Any such ordinance, regulation, or other law enacted by a local government prior to March 18, 2003, is void and unenforceable.

    29-11.7-101. Legislative declaration.
    (1) The general assembly hereby finds that:
    ...
    (b) Section 13 of article II of the state constitution protects the fundamental right of a person to keep and bear arms and implements section 3 of article II of the state constitution;
    ...
    (d) There exists a widespread inconsistency among jurisdictions within the state with regard to firearms regulations;

    (e) This inconsistency among local government laws regulating lawful firearm possession and ownership has extraterritorial impact on state citizens and the general public by subjecting them to criminal and civil penalties in some jurisdictions for conduct wholly lawful in other jurisdictions;

    (f) Inconsistency among local governments of laws regulating the possession and ownership of firearms results in persons being treated differently under the law solely on the basis of where they reside, and a person's residence in a particular county or city or city and county is not a rational classification when it is the basis for denial of equal treatment under the law;
    ...
    (2) Based on the findings specified in subsection (1) of this section, the general assembly concludes that:

    (a) The regulation of firearms is a matter of statewide concern;

    (b) It is necessary to provide statewide laws concerning the possession and ownership of a firearm to ensure that law-abiding persons are not unfairly placed in the position of unknowingly committing crimes involving firearms.

    29-11.7-104. Regulation - carrying - posting.

    A local government may enact an ordinance, regulation, or other law that prohibits the open carrying of a firearm in a building or specific area within the local government's jurisdiction. If a local government enacts an ordinance, regulation, or other law that prohibits the open carrying of a firearm in a building or specific area, the local government shall post signs at the public entrances to the building or specific area informing persons that the open carrying of firearms is prohibited in the building or specific area.
    ----------------------------------------------------

    So, with preemption language as it exists, I would suggest that this gentleman's rights have been violated and therefore is actionable in court.
    Local ordiance or municipal codes are preempted (with the exception of city/county of Denver. Long story there, other threads already exist on that.

    My personal opinion is that the city of Thornton is about to get sued the snot out of. I am not an attorney, but suspect things will go badly for Thornton, along with the folks who run that theater and their parent company.

    Blessings,
    M-Taliesin

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    Regular Member manveru's Avatar
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    hmm maybe we should have an oc movie event lol

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    Thanks M-T.

    I'm going to print that on a business card for reference.

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    Man, the misinformation is FLYING on KKTV's article and comments...

    It is a crime to carry a firearm on to posted private property. If the theater is posted "no firearms allowed", he committed a crime.

    Also, if the firearm was not clearly visible from the front, back, and one side and he has no concealed carry permit, then he committed a crime.


    http://www.kktv.com/home/headlines/M...tml?mobile=yes
    "Liberty lies in the hearts of men and women; when it dies there, no constitution, no law, no court can save it; no constitution, no law, no court can even do much to help it." - Judge Learned Hand

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    Regular Member Scotsman's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Shadetreezj View Post
    Thanks M-T.

    I'm going to print that on a business card for reference.
    It would be cool to have a standard size business card available to carry in our wallets that:

    1.) Cites the Co Constitution on the right to bear arms (openly)

    2.) Cites the statute regarding state preemption

    If this could be feasibly fit on to a standard sized business card I'd chip in to get it done! Or has this already been done and I just haven't looked in the right place?
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    Hey all! I've been away for awhile as I had to sell my gun for financial reasons. Just getting back into the swing of it and I saw this story over on the AR-15 forums. I really can't believe that many people who are for gun rights have that much hatred for OC. Check it out for yourselves...

    http://www.ar-15.co/forums/showthread.php?t=58664

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    Regular Member O2HeN2's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by kanekutter05 View Post
    Hey all! I've been away for awhile as I had to sell my gun for financial reasons. Just getting back into the swing of it and I saw this story over on the AR-15 forums. I really can't believe that many people who are for gun rights have that much hatred for OC. Check it out for yourselves...

    http://www.ar-15.co/forums/showthread.php?t=58664
    Yhea, and I poked the hornet's nest, so if any of you are willing to give me a hand...

    O2
    When seconds count, the police are mere minutes away...
    They'll never take your "hunting rifle", they'll call it a "sniper rifle" first.
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    Regular Member kanekutter05's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by O2HeN2 View Post
    Yhea, and I poked the hornet's nest, so if any of you are willing to give me a hand...

    O2
    I'm glad you did, I was starting to feel alone in that forum. I just can't believe a bunch of 2A guys are that hostile to someone OCing...

  23. #23
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    you ever notice how the 'fringe' has a problem with the 'shall not be infringed' part.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Shadetreezj View Post
    "Warning! A fine of up to $1,000.00 and imprisonment up to one year may be levied on any person convicted of carrying or possessing any prohibited, or dangerous weapon, including knives with over 3-inch blades, into or onto any liquor or beer licensed premises."

    It would be a legitimate defense if the theater was not properly marked with the prescribed signage.
    Key word "prohibited". IANAL, but an OC'd firearm for legitimate self-defense is not listed anywhere as a prohibited or dangerous weapon. Moreover, he had a permit which makes possessing his firearm FAR from "prohibited".

    "Once theater managers learned of the gun, they quickly evacuated several theaters in the building. About 30 people were affected."

    30 people in "several" theaters? Slow business.
    Last edited by mahkagari; 07-30-2012 at 01:06 PM.

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    The comments on kdvr.com are getting heated.

    I smell a lawsuit cookin' up!

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