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Thread: 5 minutes later and..

  1. #1
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    5 minutes later and..

    An old buddy of mine came by late last nite, and we decided to kill some time while waiting for his wife's flight to come in, to pick her up from the airport. We decided to find a place to chill, have a bite to eat, and maybe a coffee. We had driven to an Olive Garden nearby, but decided the place was a bit too crowded to be able to get in/eat/get-out in enough time, so we got back in the car and left.
    On our way out, however, some clown came walking over towards us at a fast pace, just as we reached our car. He shouted something that neither of us understood, but instincts being what they are.. so my buddy, who was also carrying CC, pulled his shirt aside just enough so the clown could see the grip of his Kimber .45.
    Sure enough the guy decided he has something important to do elsewhere, and performed an about-face.
    We got into the car, and drove off.

    Turns out, barely 5 minutes later, this clown car-jacked someone else in the same lot. I can only wonder what, if any deterrent we may have posed, had both of us been permitted to OC..
    I feel bad though, that this guy turned his attentions to others, who were not armed themselves. Not that I, or he, wanted to get into a gunfight in a parking lot, but..just that regret that we were spared this ordeal, being better equipped to deal with it, than the one who became his victims.

    By Clifford Davis

    An armed carjacking at a Northside restaurant Monday night led to a police chase and shooting on the Westside Tuesday morning.

    A man took a car at gunpoint about 11:30 p.m. outside the Olive Garden at 13040 City Center Drive.

    Not long after, an officer spotted the vehicle near the intersection of Plymouth Street and Roosevelt Boulevard, according to Assistant Chief Christopher Butler of the Jacksonville Sheriff’s Office.

    Police pursued the vehicle and performed a maneuver, sending the vehicle crashing through a fence. The car stopped in the 1900 block of Old Middleburg Road in the backyard of a home.

    The suspect, described as a 21-year-old man, ran from police after crashing the car, Butler said.

    “Preliminary reports indicate the suspect shot at the officers, he said. “The officers discharged their weapons at the suspect several times.”

    A perimeter was set up, and police were able to find the suspect and take him into custody.

    Neither the police nor the suspect were hit by the gunfire, Butler said.

    The victims of the initial carjacking were unharmed and the suspect was the only occupant at the time of the crash, police said.

    Old Middleburg Road remains closed between Hyde Grove Avenue and Wiley Road.

    Read more at Jacksonville.com: http://jacksonville.com/news/crime/2...#ixzz22CbGKbVp

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  3. #3
    Founder's Club Member thebigsd's Avatar
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    Wow, glad to hear that you're okay. Yes, open carry is definitely a deterrent, hopefully one day Florida will realize that.

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    Regular Member AAriondo's Avatar
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    I know how you feel but you cant help everyone. You got out safe and sound.
    Carrying isn't suppossed to feel comfortable...Its supposed to feel safe.

  5. #5
    Regular Member SouthernBoy's Avatar
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    I'd really be pissed if he crashed my car.
    In the final seconds of your life, just before your killer is about to dispatch you to that great eternal darkness, what would you rather have in your hand? A cell phone or a gun?

    Si vis pacem, para bellum.

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  6. #6
    Regular Member papa bear's Avatar
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    so it looks like OC is what stopped the guy CC made him a soft target
    Luke 22:36 ; 36Then said he unto them, But now, he that hath a purse, let him take it, and likewise his scrip: and he that hath no sword, let him sell his garment, and buy one.

    "guns are like a Parachute, if you don't have one when you need it, you will not need one again"
    - unknown

    i you call a CHP a CCW then you are really stupid. period.

  7. #7
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    Well, can't say I feel bad for the person who got jacked but it is a damn shame that person had to deal with that BS. Just glad you guys made it out ok.


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    Regular Member rushcreek2's Avatar
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    Excellent job of reacting quickly to a prickly encounter.

    For this very reason I WILL NOT ALLOW any person that causes my senses to prickle up - to get within, or remain within 10 feet of me.

    Excellent example of the deterrent value of OC vs the NONdeterrent value of CC.

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    I can understand feeling bad about the guy who got jacked but, at least you are safe. A criminal will always find another victim. All you can do is make sure that you and your family are not the victims. I hope the guy who did get jacked decides to OC now.

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    There are no victims, only volunteers

    There are no victims, only volunteers.

    If they have the option to be armed and alert, but choose not to be - thye have volunteered to be a victim.

    You and your friend, because you choose to be armed, and engage your instincts, avoided a criminal encounter.

  11. #11
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    Quote Originally Posted by Saxxon View Post
    There are no victims, only volunteers.

    If they have the option to be armed and alert, but choose not to be - thye have volunteered to be a victim.

    You and your friend, because you choose to be armed, and engage your instincts, avoided a criminal encounter.
    True enough, and I "get" that concept, but.. just cant seem to help this twinge of guilt I get, thinking how this bonehead passed on us, and went on to harm others, instead..while that always seems to be the "desired" outcome,when it ends up happening that way, cant help but wonder about what if we could have prevented it all-around, ya know?

    I know though, not rational thoughts on my part, but still..

    Also, I do not know the folks who were harmed, nor do I assume to have any knowledge of thier stance-one way or another- on arming themselves, CC or OC or whatever.Heck, for all I know they could have been CC themselves, and for whatever reason did not make use of thier arms..
    So, I cant say "well, they chose" this OR that, ya know?

  12. #12
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    Quote Originally Posted by j4l View Post
    SNIP On our way out, however, some clown came walking over towards us at a fast pace, just as we reached our car. He shouted something that neither of us understood, but instincts being what they are.. so my buddy, who was also carrying CC, pulled his shirt aside just enough so the clown could see the grip of his Kimber .45.
    Sure enough the guy decided he has something important to do elsewhere, and performed an about-face.
    We got into the car, and drove off.
    Glad y'all weren't hurt.

    But, I gotta point out that y'all need to find another way to take control of such a situation. Yelling a command to "STOP RIGHT THERE!" or something. (I've done the stop! command three times in the last three or four years. It worked all three times.)

    I say this because your friend may have committed a criminal offense. In VA it would be charged as brandishing. Other states have similar prohibitions but call it something else.

    All it would take is for the fella approaching you to call the police, report your license number, and your friend could be in serious trouble. You report no overt threats from the guy. You report you did not understand what he said. You report only approaching at a fast pace, and instincts. The key point being that your report completely lacks any overt, clearly recognizeable threat that would justify a return threat of lethal force.

    So, unless you've left out some important points, or unless your state's statutes have a loophole in them or expressly permit such a weapon display, your friend could get in a lot of trouble for such a weapon display.

    Please do think up some other way to take control of such a situation. We need all the OCers we can keep.
    Last edited by Citizen; 08-05-2012 at 05:01 PM.
    I'll make you an offer: I will argue and fight for all of your rights, if you will do the same for me. That is the only way freedom can work. We have to respect all rights, all the time--and strive to win the rights of the other guy as much as for ourselves.

    If I am equal to another, how can I legitimately govern him without his express individual consent?

    There is no human being on earth I hate so much I would actually vote to inflict government upon him.

  13. #13
    Campaign Veteran Cavalryman's Avatar
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    If the criminal had not known you were armed, he might have persisted in a course of action which would have gotten him (or worse, someone else) killed. Knowing you were armed probably saved his life. We could argue all day about whether that would be bad, but having to kill someone is always bad for the good guy. Less bad than being killed, but still bad.

  14. #14
    Regular Member 77zach's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Citizen View Post

    So, unless you've left out some important points, or unless your state's statutes have a loophole in them or expressly permit such a weapon display, your friend could get in a lot of trouble for such a weapon display.

    Please do think up some other way to take control of such a situation. We need all the OCers we can keep.
    790.053 says a person licensed to carry concealed may openly display a handgun "briefly" as long as it is not done in a "rude, angry, or threatening manner". There is a case in Fl right now seeking to give us OC. The statute is clearly "void for vagueness".
    Last edited by 77zach; 08-06-2012 at 12:32 PM.
    “If the natural tendencies of mankind are so bad that it is not safe to permit people to be free, how is it that the tendencies of these organizers are always good? Do not the legislators and their appointed agents also belong to the human race? Or do they believe that they themselves are made of a finer clay than the rest of mankind? ” -Bastiat

    I don't "need" to openly carry a handgun or own an "assault weapon" any more than Rosa Parks needed a seat on the bus.

  15. #15
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    Quote Originally Posted by 77zach View Post
    790.053 says a person licensed to carry concealed may openly display a handgun "briefly" as long as it is not done in a "rude, angry, or threatening manner". There is a case in Fl right now seeking to give us OC. The statute is clearly "void for vagueness".
    Thank you. Um, no. That is not quite what the statute says. (This is why direct quotes and links are important when making firm declarative statements about what the law says.) The statute, copied directly from the FL state legislature's website, says in relevant part:

    It is not a violation of this section for a person licensed to carry a concealed firearm as provided in s. 790.06(1), and who is lawfully carrying a firearm in a concealed manner, to briefly and openly display the firearm to the ordinary sight of another person, unless the firearm is intentionally displayed in an angry or threatening manner, not in necessary self-defense.

    http://www.leg.state.fl.us/statutes/.../0790.053.html

    Before I get to my construction (analysis of what the statute means), let me first be clear that I am not advocating or supporting this particular statute or others like it in other states. I consider it a somewhat dangerous legislative loophole that the law does not expressly make it safe for a citizen to ward off a potential or actual attack by brief display of a weapon. Such omission in the law sets up the law-abiding for either a more dangerous confrontation if they follow the law, or makes them easier prey for a rabid prosecutor if they ignore the law and make a weapon display to avert early a dangerous confrontation.

    Construction. The statute starts by making open carry illegal. The quoted phrasing is an exception to illegal open carry, giving protection to someone who accidentally reveals or wishes to display to someone in a non-threatening manner, say to a police officer who asks or a friend or fellow gunner who asks.

    However, note the part prohibiting intentional display in an angry or threatening manner. And, note the part about "not in necessary self-defense." This is where our OPers come into prosecutorial danger. First, the OPer friend's display was definitely done in an intentional threatening manner. While not wild-eyed and vicious, the gesture was definitely meant to communicate that lethal force was available and intimidate. The statute does not distinguish between subtle threats and brute threats.

    But, here is where I think our OPer friend really goofed: "not in necessary self-defense". The friend displayed the gun on too little evidence. There is reported no overt threat from the approaching man. Only that he approached at a fast pace, and the defender's instincts. There is no way the information reported can be made to satisfy the question that the display was necessary self-defense.
    I'll make you an offer: I will argue and fight for all of your rights, if you will do the same for me. That is the only way freedom can work. We have to respect all rights, all the time--and strive to win the rights of the other guy as much as for ourselves.

    If I am equal to another, how can I legitimately govern him without his express individual consent?

    There is no human being on earth I hate so much I would actually vote to inflict government upon him.

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