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Thread: Legal Resident Aliens and the 2A

  1. #1
    Regular Member GTShooter's Avatar
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    Legal Resident Aliens and the 2A

    Although I really dont like the term "Alien" it is mostly used and recognized so Ill go with that.

    I have tons of friends that are Legally here in the US. Do they have the same right to Bear & Keep arms? At some point I believe I had read something about it but cannot seem to find it.
    Last edited by GTShooter; 08-01-2012 at 12:52 PM.

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    I work in translation and have a foreign born-wife so I've got lots of friends in this category. DW has her citizenship now, so she'd better not face any issues getting her CHP. Another friend had a delay on her background check because of her non-citizen status, but it eventually went through.

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    Regular Member GTShooter's Avatar
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    Well my concern is misinforming them about OC. is there an article in the constitution or some type of law that excludes legal residents from OC?

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    Quote Originally Posted by GTShooter View Post
    Well my concern is misinforming them about OC. is there an article in the constitution or some type of law that excludes legal residents from OC?
    Not that wouldn't be applicable in any other "right", IMO. But that's the arguement over Gitmo.

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    Quote Originally Posted by GTShooter View Post
    . Do they have the same right to Bear & Keep arms?
    Might depend where they are; I think a Mass. federal case said yes. If other districts would agree or have also agreed is unknown to me.

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    Regular Member GTShooter's Avatar
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    Hmmm im surprised Ive gotten so little response to this thread.

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    Regular Member M-Taliesin's Avatar
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    The second amendment says the right of the people to keep and bear arms shall not be infringed. Note that it does not say the right of the citizen. It says the right of the people shall not be infringed.
    Blessings,
    M-Taliesin

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    Quote Originally Posted by M-Taliesin View Post
    The second amendment says the right of the people to keep and bear arms shall not be infringed. Note that it does not say the right of the citizen. It says the right of the people shall not be infringed.
    Blessings,
    M-Taliesin
    RIGHTS are something citizens have, not just visitors to the country. If it's not so, then what is the value in being a citizen?

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    I had a friend from England who is a permanent resident and has a visa and was able to buy a handgun with no problems.

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    Quote Originally Posted by bogidu View Post
    RIGHTS are something citizens have, not just visitors to the country. If it's not so, then what is the value in being a citizen?
    But are legal "permanent residents" visitors? Main value in being a citizen is being able to vote issues regarding said rights and not being able to have your residency status yanked from you.

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    Permament resident aliens, i.e., green card holders, are treated the same as US citizens under the federal Gun Contol Act.

    A couple courts have held state laws invalid as applied to resident aliens under Second Amendment analysis, but usually these alien cases are decided in favor of the resident aliens on equal protection grounds.

    These cases google up pretty easy, many of them recent.

    I expect all state statutes discriminating against resident aliens on guns to be extinct with about 18 months.

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    Quote Originally Posted by GTShooter View Post
    Hmmm im surprised Ive gotten so little response to this thread.
    Not something that comes up enough for people to have informed answers on.

    Quote Originally Posted by Mike View Post
    Permament resident aliens, i.e., green card holders, are treated the same as US citizens under the federal Gun Contol Act.
    Ah, there we go.

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    Regular Member GTShooter's Avatar
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    Ill try to look them up on google thanks for the info and thanks all for your comments.

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    Here is an article raising Second Amendment issues in an alien context: http://www.examiner.com/article/obam...endment-rights

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    Regular Member GTShooter's Avatar
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    Dont know if I missed something but this seems to be focused more on Illegal Alien Residents.

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    Quote Originally Posted by bogidu View Post
    RIGHTS are something citizens have, not just visitors to the country. If it's not so, then what is the value in being a citizen?
    There have been plenty of court cases on this issue.

    Graham v Richardson is the controlling case law.

    There has been numerous cases in the past few years including but not limited to...

    Fletcher v Haas
    NRA V State of Washington
    The Smith Case in South Dakota
    The settlement in Omaha, Nebraska.

    You are historically inaccurate about rights. The constitution uses the term people, and citizen.... both have meanings.

    You are reading what you want into the document and ignoring the writings of some of the Founders and what the author of the 14th Amendment intended.

    Eugene Volokh has written good reviews of this subject matter.

    If rights are based on citizenship, then they are simply government granted privileges that can be revoked.

    The value of being a citizen you ask? There are three actually...

    1. The ability to never be deported or subject to immigration policy.

    2. The right to vote

    3. The ability for the U.S. Government to own your body and they demonstrate that by taxing U.S. Citizens worldwide, some who haven't lived here in years and some who have NEVER stepped foot in the United States.

    North Korea and the United States are the only two countries who not only claim to own the land, but they also claim to own you... not even the U.K. or China taxes money earned outside of their boundaries.... just North Korea and The United States.
    Last edited by Jared; 08-03-2012 at 02:53 PM.

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    Regular Member GTShooter's Avatar
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    Just to add to Jared's post and provide more info as to who Legal Permanent Resident Aliens are


    Who are LPRAs?

    LPRs are aliens who are granted permanent residence in the United States of America after petitioning the United States Citizenship and Immigration Services. Most people obtain an LPR status (ie a “green card”) using an employment based application process or a family based petition. Other less common routes include political asylum, adoption, refugee status and diversity visa lottery. With the employment-based petition the aliens must show that they qualify as (in decreasing order of preference/priority, probability of successful petition and visa number availability):

    Workers of extraordinary ability in the sciences, arts, education, business or athletics

    Outstanding professors or researchers

    Multinational managers

    Advanced degree professionals.

    Workers who because of their exceptional ability in the sciences, arts, or business will substantially benefit prospectively the national economy, cultural or educational interests, or welfare of the United States

    Professionals with bachelor’s degrees

    Skilled workers

    The process includes extensive background checks (10-fingerprint FBI criminal background checks, namechecks), reports of medical exams by a US civil surgeon ruling out tubercolosis, HIV, syphilis, gonorrhea, chancroid, granuloma inglunalis, lymphogranuloma venereum, hensen’s disease, mental disorders and use of controlled substances. This is followed by a complete vaccination record and redo of immunization in case of its absence (DtaP, IPV, MMR, Hib, HepB, Varicella, Meningococcus, Rotavirus, …). The petitions require extensive supporting evidence, often including a labor certification, evidence of scientific production, citation in the press, reference letters, citation scores, honors and awards, etc. The success rate oscillates around 60% for the first and second priority categories, less for other groups. The process include ~$1800 in federal fees plus lawyer fees (up to $6000).

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    Quote Originally Posted by Jared View Post
    Eugene Volokh has written good reviews of this subject matter.

    If rights are based on citizenship, then they are simply government granted privileges that can be revoked.

    The value of being a citizen you ask? There are three actually...

    1. The ability to never be deported or subject to immigration policy.

    2. The right to vote

    3. The ability for the U.S. Government to own your body and they demonstrate that by taxing U.S. Citizens worldwide, some who haven't lived here in years and some who have NEVER stepped foot in the United States.

    North Korea and the United States are the only two countries who not only claim to own the land, but they also claim to own you... not even the U.K. or China taxes money earned outside of their boundaries.... just North Korea and The United States.
    Firstly let me state, no, I have not studied this issue in detail but as time has gone on I'm coming to the conclusion that I need to do so.

    If those are the 3 reasons, the first is irrelevant as immigration is unchecked, the second seems more and more pointless (although I do continue to do so) and the third makes me WANT to leave.

    In a nutshell, if that is all citizenship in the great USA amounts to anymore, it's hard to continue being patriotic.

    Oh, and as an aside, you're the second person in a month who has mentioned Eugene Volokh, I'm taking that as an omen
    Last edited by bogidu; 08-03-2012 at 04:12 PM.

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    Quote Originally Posted by GTShooter View Post
    The process includes extensive background checks (10-fingerprint FBI criminal background checks, namechecks), reports of medical exams by a US civil surgeon ruling out tubercolosis, HIV, syphilis, gonorrhea, chancroid, granuloma inglunalis, lymphogranuloma venereum, hensen’s disease, mental disorders and use of controlled substances. This is followed by a complete vaccination record and redo of immunization in case of its absence (DtaP, IPV, MMR, Hib, HepB, Varicella, Meningococcus, Rotavirus, …). The petitions require extensive supporting evidence, often including a labor certification, evidence of scientific production, citation in the press, reference letters, citation scores, honors and awards, etc. The success rate oscillates around 60% for the first and second priority categories, less for other groups.


    And when you've filled in all the forms
    And been passed clear of all disease
    Debriefed debugged dedrugged disarmed
    And disinfected please
    Don't forget the guys
    Who cut your keys

    The process include ~$1800 in federal fees plus lawyer fees (up to $6000).
    Lawyers are overrated. If you've got time and patience, the info is all on CIS's website. What you pay a lawyer for is to have already read and memorized it all. And occasionally to be someone to blame for screwing up your paperwork.
    Last edited by mahkagari; 08-03-2012 at 07:02 PM.

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    When you have so much as they do on the line to have the opportunity to be in this country legally people much rather not risk it and hire someone familiar with the process. Not to mention not everyone comes already speaking the language or is familiar with all the different laws.

    I can assure you it is an intimidating process.

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    Quote Originally Posted by GTShooter View Post
    I can assure you it is an intimidating process.
    Oh, I know. I met my wife online on a listserv 14 years ago, traveled to South Africa to meet her in person, proposed 10 days later, then had the fun over the past 12 and a half years of going through getting her in on a fiancee visa, her conditional status, then permanent status, and ultimately citizenship. Now, she's looking at starting over with getting her parents over on relative visas.

    Somewhere in the beginning of that, I accompanied her to the then INS for moral support. The officer assumed my pigmented melon was the immigrant despite her accent and continued referral to HER fiancée paperwork. After several comments directed to my assumed status, I stated I was a US citizen born here and that SHE came here to marry ME. I left out the part about my family founding Santa Fe in 1598.

    You're right on the language. It's not just English. It's the bureacracish legalese. But like the saying goes, "Bureaucracy is a challenge to be conquered with a righteous attitude, a tolerance for stupidity, and a bulldozer when necessary." A friend of mine was recently going through it with his Canadian fiancée/wife. After he spent $1500 on a legal consultation and coming back with basic info from CIS's FAQs, I asked him, "Why didn't you ask us?"

    But I'm not one to cast stones. I'm currently printing a work authorization to install an A/C since I don't have the patience to spend a few hours on DIY YouTube videos.
    Last edited by mahkagari; 08-03-2012 at 05:37 PM.

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    Regular Member SFCRetired's Avatar
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    @mahkagari: You'd have been better off to get her here on a tourist visa, marry her, and then go through the process.

    My wife was here to help our daughter with her baby while daughter attended an advanced degree course. I, too, met my lovely bride online, but I only had to travel the length of the state to meet her.

    The original green card issued to her was for only two years because we had not been married very long. But we had no trouble getting it or in getting the ten-year card.

    We're still working on the citizenship. Plenty of time. We've only been married four years!!
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    Quote Originally Posted by SFCRetired View Post
    @mahkagari: You'd have been better off to get her here on a tourist visa, marry her, and then go through the process.
    I should clarify. It only took a couple of months for her to get through on the fiancée visa. IIRC, we declined going the tourist visa route to a) avoid red flagging her case and b) it would delay her employment authorization. She needed time to wrap up her life in SA anyhow.

    With her K1, she was able to get a 90 day EAD right away while she got her temp green card (the two year conditional you refer to). She also got her 10 year easily. The delay in getting her citizenship was actually on the SA side. She had to remotely renew her passport, then apply for permission to accept foreign citizenship, and then some other stuff I don't recall. All of which took saving up for the processing fees.

    Having her green card stolen with her wallet while complying with her reading of Federal law that she needed to carry it didn't help. Those things aren't cheap to replace. Wonder how much it went for on the black market. Her driver's license turned up being used by another motorist.
    Last edited by mahkagari; 08-03-2012 at 06:20 PM.

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    Regular Member M-Taliesin's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by M-Taliesin View Post
    The second amendment says the right of the people to keep and bear arms shall not be infringed. Note that it does not say the right of the citizen. It says the right of the people shall not be infringed.
    Blessings,
    M-Taliesin
    Quote Originally Posted by bogidu View Post
    RIGHTS are something citizens have, not just visitors to the country. If it's not so, then what is the value in being a citizen?
    Howdy Amigo!
    Let's take a look at the actual language of the 2nd Amendment:

    A well regulated militia being necessary to the security of a free state, the right of the people to keep and bear arms shall not be infringed.

    Considering the wording, it is clear that they meant 'people', and did not stipulate 'citizens'.
    It is considered a natural human right to keep and bear arms, one unalienable and bestowed by a creator.
    Not a gift of government, or exercised according to the whim of such institution.

    Meanwhile, I think it entirely reasonable that the founders did not stipulate 'citizen' for a very simple reason.
    Many Americans considered themselves subjects of the crown.
    Even during the Revolutionary war, many tried to remain 'loyal' to the king.
    It may be supposed, I believe rightly, that many still thought of themselves as Englishmen and subjects of the crown even after the war was over and the Constitution of the United States was signed.

    So the people had this right, and it did not derive from governments crafted by men, but existed as an unalienable right endowed by the creator.
    That right dated back to the Declaration of Independence, when nobody was a citizen of the United States, because the United States wasn't actually a nation at that point.

    We hold these truths to be self-evident, that all men are created equal, that they are endowed by their Creator with certain unalienable Rights, that among these are Life, Liberty and the pursuit of Happiness.

    Life, itself, was largely dependent upon the use of firearms. And it was the liberty of men to keep and bear a firearm.

    To carry my point further, let us look at the Colorado Constitution's version of a bill of rights:
    Note that Article 2 makes very plain the people are the ultimate source of authority as pertains to government. Does not say 'citizen', but people!

    Section 1. Vestment of political power. All political power is vested in and derived from the people; all government, of right, originates from the people, is founded upon their will only, and is instituted solely for the good of the whole.

    Now back to the point:
    Section 3. Inalienable rights. All persons have certain natural, essential and inalienable rights, among which may be reckoned the right of enjoying and defending their lives and liberties; of acquiring, possessing and protecting property; and of seeking and obtaining their safety and happiness.

    Notice the emphasis here: All persons.... not just citizens... have natural, essential and inalienable rights.
    This reflects what we see on the federal level perfectly.

    Now to the relevance as pertains to people and the right to keep and bear arms, whether a citizen or not:
    Section 13. Right to bear arms. The right of no person to keep and bear arms in defense of his home, person and property, or in aid of the civil power when thereto legally summoned, shall be called in question; but nothing herein contained shall be construed to justify the practice of carrying concealed weapons.

    It doesn't say "no citizen", but the right of no person to keep and bear shall be called into question.

    Clearly, the message is that every human being has certain inalienable rights. Just as a visitor to our nation has the right to worship as they are led, are free to speak as they will, and to enjoy liberty along with us all, so too they'd have the right to keep and bear arms.

    If we agree that the 2nd Amendment is worth the paper it is written on, we must embrace it as intended, for all people, to share the liberty that sets our nation apart from the rest of the world! God Bless America!

    Blessings,
    M-Taliesin

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