Results 1 to 22 of 22

Thread: DA/SA transition too difficult? says who?

  1. #1
    Regular Member
    Join Date
    Jan 2011
    Location
    fl
    Posts
    1,835

    DA/SA transition too difficult? says who?

    Got some practice in, out back today, since the weather was nice for once.
    Drill for today was 1 blast from shotty (#6 shot) @ 25 m, then advance while transitioning to the .45, and tap out a Mozambique...







    cept, I seem to have f-d up the Mozi.. 3rd shot should be much higher- @ head.. but..
    1st shot-out of holster was DA/Hammer-down on round. 2 and 3 immediately after were SA. Ammo was 230 grain Lawman TMJ, not the GDHP pictured for group-size comparison.
    Guess I need to work on timing that 3rd shot of the drill.. this one I fired off as fast as I could pull the trigger.

    I suppose it depends on the pistol and the amount of practice one put;'s in, but neither "recoil" nor DA/SA were an issue here in the least.
    Last edited by j4l; 08-01-2012 at 01:24 PM.

  2. #2
    Campaign Veteran Cavalryman's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jun 2010
    Location
    Anchorage, Alaska
    Posts
    308
    I've never had a problem with the DA-to-SA transition. I really don't know what the fuss is about.

  3. #3
    Regular Member
    Join Date
    Jan 2011
    Location
    fl
    Posts
    1,835
    Quote Originally Posted by Cavalryman View Post
    I've never had a problem with the DA-to-SA transition. I really don't know what the fuss is about.
    Well, it's just that I've heard a few folks here, and elsewhere go on and on about how "difficult" it is to shoot accurately,and rapidly, when going from DA 1st shot, to SA follow-on shots as though that were some sort of set-in-stone gospel....so,.....figured I'd demonstrate otherwise-for me, at least.

  4. #4
    Campaign Veteran skidmark's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jan 2007
    Location
    North Chesterfield VA
    Posts
    10,682
    Single-action shooters seem to believe that the longer and heavier trigger pull of double action will force them to drop the muzzle and have the bullet impact low - possibly in the dirt at their feet!

    DA/SA shooters seem to believe that SSA shooters who cannot keep their wrists straight through the DA pull deserve everything that is said about people with that affliction.

    But then I hear there are folks who insist that the jelly side of a PBJ sammich must be on top so as not to get the PB stuck to the roof of their mouth. And that there are folks who cannot get a corner of the sammich in their mouths for the first bite unless said sammich was cut in triangles and not rectangles. Get used to doing a certain thing a certain way and I guess it will feel "wrong" if you then try to do it any other way.

    stay safe.
    "He'll regret it to his dying day....if ever he lives that long."----The Quiet Man

    Because stupidity isn't a race, and everybody can win.

    "No matter how much contempt you have for the media in all this, you don't have enough"
    ----Allahpundit

  5. #5
    Regular Member Maine Expat's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jun 2012
    Location
    Ukraine & Bangor Maine
    Posts
    235
    I'm still working the kinks on that first DA shot with the long pull myself. I do pull it down, but usually hit the target in the legs or feet. Getting into the SA part isn't a problem though.
    “Good people do not need laws to tell them to act responsibly, while bad people will find a way around the laws.” ― Plato

    Plato knew this yet today's antis still don't get it!

    Join the fight for freedom
    Oathkeepers

  6. #6
    Regular Member
    Join Date
    Jan 2011
    Location
    fl
    Posts
    1,835
    Quote Originally Posted by Maine Expat View Post
    I'm still working the kinks on that first DA shot with the long pull myself. I do pull it down, but usually hit the target in the legs or feet. Getting into the SA part isn't a problem though.
    Hmm, not sure how to help with that, since I just dont have the issue. I'm going to guess it's a lot to do with a particular pistol, as to how good/bad/long etc. the DA pull is..I've fired some Makarovs that had horrible DA pulls-before getting a trigger-job,but the issue I had with those was I had a tendancy to torgue the pistol a bit to the right, as the finger pulled the trigger back- not down, or up..

    Barrettas DA pulls were always just too long a reach for my short fingers, after wrapping around those thick grips- but same issue- a torgue to the right as opposed to pulling up or down..

  7. #7
    Regular Member
    Join Date
    Mar 2011
    Location
    California
    Posts
    1,797
    The only DA/SA gun that I shoot is a 92FS, and I only get to "practice" (if you can call it that) once a year and I only get to shoot 90 rounds. I find that when I go to shoot that initial shot, if I attempt to go at any speed other than slow/methodical (which is NOT the speed I would want to go at if I was having to deploy the firearm) then I end up pulling the gun to the left. I don't have this issue with my XDm or when the 92FS is on SA. I also don't seem to really have this issue with my wife's TCP which is DAO.

    Maybe if I could practice with the gun more it would be different, but sadly I can't.

  8. #8
    Campaign Veteran skidmark's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jan 2007
    Location
    North Chesterfield VA
    Posts
    10,682
    Quote Originally Posted by Maine Expat View Post
    I'm still working the kinks on that first DA shot with the long pull myself. I do pull it down, but usually hit the target in the legs or feet. Getting into the SA part isn't a problem though.

    The easiest cure is exercise - strengthen the arm/wrist against the pull of the trigger finger. Lots of dry firing, which means you will need snap caps. Enough practice to wear out at least two sets of them. (Yes, they do wear out!)

    Another exercise is to put a pencil (long enough to stick out the end with the non-pointy end resting against the firing pin) down the barrel of an unloaded handgun and hold it so that the point is just barely touching some paper. (A nice painted wall also works, but you might end up needing to scrub pencil marks off.) Hold the gun at shoulder height and pull the trigger. If your pull is straight back and the barrel does not move you will get a pencil point mark. If not, you will see a line that shows which way the barrel moves and you can figure out if it is from the trigger finger or the wrist not being held.

    Once you figure out what needs correction and have worked on it, you can try the circle-dot test. Set up a piece of paper at shoulder height. Draw a horizontal row of circles about the size of a dime, about 6 or 8 inches apart, across the paper. You will want at least 6 circles. Pencil long enough to just barely stick out the end down the barrel of the unloaded gun. Hold the gun between 1/4 and 1 inch from the paper, sight on the circle and fire. Everything working will give you a nice dot inside the circle. Not working right will either give you a line inside the circle (very bad) or a dot outside the circle (even worse).

    Once you master dime-sized circles go progressively smaller until they are about the diameter of the pencil and you are getting dots inside all the circles.

    These are old-timey training techniques which is why many of you young whippersnappers never heard of them.

    stay safe.
    "He'll regret it to his dying day....if ever he lives that long."----The Quiet Man

    Because stupidity isn't a race, and everybody can win.

    "No matter how much contempt you have for the media in all this, you don't have enough"
    ----Allahpundit

  9. #9
    Regular Member Maine Expat's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jun 2012
    Location
    Ukraine & Bangor Maine
    Posts
    235
    Like the pencil practice thing.

    My Bersa Thunder .45 really has an easy pull in DA, its just a long pull and I think I'm anticipating the bang too much and pull the muzzle down because of that. I do take too long to get the shots off, trying to aim instead of letting the pistol become an extension of my arm and just pointing it where I want the round to go. Again, I just need more practice time. Still, I feel like I've accomplished quite a bit getting 5 of 7 rounds on an 8x11 sheet of paper consistently.

    I still have a few weeks left on my holiday and I'll be burning some FMJ up as I work through that issue.

    Draw, sweep safety off,
    Sight picture, breath control, trigger squeeze.
    Rinse & repeat over & over until the muscles are programmed where thought is no longer required to hit the target.
    “Good people do not need laws to tell them to act responsibly, while bad people will find a way around the laws.” ― Plato

    Plato knew this yet today's antis still don't get it!

    Join the fight for freedom
    Oathkeepers

  10. #10
    Regular Member
    Join Date
    Jan 2011
    Location
    fl
    Posts
    1,835
    Quote Originally Posted by Maine Expat View Post
    Like the pencil practice thing.

    My Bersa Thunder .45 really has an easy pull in DA, its just a long pull and I think I'm anticipating the bang too much and pull the muzzle down because of that. I do take too long to get the shots off, trying to aim instead of letting the pistol become an extension of my arm and just pointing it where I want the round to go. Again, I just need more practice time. Still, I feel like I've accomplished quite a bit getting 5 of 7 rounds on an 8x11 sheet of paper consistently.

    I still have a few weeks left on my holiday and I'll be burning some FMJ up as I work through that issue.

    Draw, sweep safety off,
    Sight picture, breath control, trigger squeeze.
    Rinse & repeat over & over until the muscles are programmed where thought is no longer required to hit the target.
    Snap-caps are good for this, as well- for the DA pull, anyway. Build up muscle-memory of that DA pull, etc.

  11. #11
    Activist Member
    Join Date
    Nov 2007
    Location
    Reno, Nevada, USA
    Posts
    1,713
    Quote Originally Posted by Aknazer View Post
    The only DA/SA gun that I shoot is a 92FS, and I only get to "practice" (if you can call it that) once a year and I only get to shoot 90 rounds. I find that when I go to shoot that initial shot, if I attempt to go at any speed other than slow/methodical (which is NOT the speed I would want to go at if I was having to deploy the firearm) then I end up pulling the gun to the left. I don't have this issue with my XDm or when the 92FS is on SA. I also don't seem to really have this issue with my wife's TCP which is DAO.

    Maybe if I could practice with the gun more it would be different, but sadly I can't.
    Why can you only practice once a year? Is the 92FS a gun you carry for self-defense? Military? Police work? Security? You can't even get a snap cap to practice the trigger pull with? Can you buy a D-Spring for it? (The D-Spring is used in the 92D and provides a better pull than the F spring, most people on the Beretta forum seem to think.)

    If it is an issued gun you aren't allowed to practice with, you might want to get yourself one so that you can practice more than once a year.
    Last edited by Felid`Maximus; 08-12-2012 at 03:23 PM.

  12. #12
    Regular Member Phoenix David's Avatar
    Join Date
    Sep 2009
    Location
    Glendale, Arizona, USA
    Posts
    629
    Quote Originally Posted by Maine Expat View Post
    I'm still working the kinks on that first DA shot with the long pull myself. I do pull it down, but usually hit the target in the legs or feet. Getting into the SA part isn't a problem though.
    Take the first accurately placed DA shot, de-cock, take accurately placed DA shot, rinse and repeat a couple of hundred times and it will not be a factor again.

    It's not oga boga magic it's just effective practice.
    Freedom is a bit like sex, when your getting it you take it for granted, when you're not you want it bad, other people get mad at you for having it and others want to take it away from you so only they have it.

  13. #13
    Regular Member
    Join Date
    Jul 2011
    Location
    northern wis
    Posts
    3,193
    People who don't paractice enough with double to single actions.

    All it takes is range time.

    I shot and called single actions and double action handguns I really don't see much differant in hit times as long as one is well trained with the one he has.

    I shoot them both well.

  14. #14
    Regular Member
    Join Date
    Mar 2011
    Location
    California
    Posts
    1,797
    Quote Originally Posted by Felid`Maximus View Post
    Why can you only practice once a year? Is the 92FS a gun you carry for self-defense? Military? Police work? Security? You can't even get a snap cap to practice the trigger pull with? Can you buy a D-Spring for it? (The D-Spring is used in the 92D and provides a better pull than the F spring, most people on the Beretta forum seem to think.)

    If it is an issued gun you aren't allowed to practice with, you might want to get yourself one so that you can practice more than once a year.
    It's a military issued gun and as such I can't simply choose to go practice with it whenever I want (though I did have my wife send me some Snap Caps and a spare mag so that I can do a bit of practice while I'm downrange). Also I don't exactly have the spare money to buy a 92FS simply to be able to practice with it for when I deploy (since when I deploy is the only time I would carry the gun).

  15. #15
    Regular Member
    Join Date
    Jan 2012
    Location
    High Point, NC
    Posts
    94
    Easy solution, carry it in single action I think because of these issues is why I carry striker fired guns only. And the 2 hammered fired guns I do have, they are single action only.

    Sent from my DROID RAZR using Tapatalk 2

  16. #16
    Campaign Veteran skidmark's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jan 2007
    Location
    North Chesterfield VA
    Posts
    10,682
    Quote Originally Posted by Aknazer View Post
    It's a military issued gun and as such I can't simply choose to go practice with it whenever I want (though I did have my wife send me some Snap Caps and a spare mag so that I can do a bit of practice while I'm downrange). Also I don't exactly have the spare money to buy a 92FS simply to be able to practice with it for when I deploy (since when I deploy is the only time I would carry the gun).
    http://www.opticsplanet.com/laserlyt...FY2b7QodLmsA3Q

    $100 is a significant chunk of change - until you balance it out against the cost of 5K rounds (not even factoring in shipping). I prefer the one that sits in the chamber because it allows draw&shoot exactly like it would be "in real life". Sorry, all you SAO folks, but there is just no way you can practice follow-up shots. Using the appropriate one of these http://www.piedmontnrainstructors.or...ChartRight.pdf - for righties

    http://www.piedmontnrainstructors.or...nChartLeft.pdf - for lefties

    and a target made of aluminum foil (scrunch it into a ball and then faltten it out carefully - makes for better reflection of the laser pulse) should get you all the practice you need without spending an additional penny. For more fun, make up 2-inch by 2-inch aluminum targets and pin the up around the house. Practice draw&shoot scenarios without travelling to a shoothouse or needing to purchase ammo. I do not care if you subscribe to "muscle memory" theories or not - your aim will improve over time.

    Just so the FTC does not come trying to kick in my door - I am not paid by the company to shill their products. I spent my own money to buy their stuff. I just really like how they work and the results I get from using them.

    stay safe.
    "He'll regret it to his dying day....if ever he lives that long."----The Quiet Man

    Because stupidity isn't a race, and everybody can win.

    "No matter how much contempt you have for the media in all this, you don't have enough"
    ----Allahpundit

  17. #17
    Regular Member DangerClose's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jun 2011
    Location
    The mean streets of WI
    Posts
    570
    Hmm, how'd that saying go... "The only thing worse than DAO is DA/SA."

  18. #18
    Regular Member
    Join Date
    Mar 2011
    Location
    California
    Posts
    1,797
    Quote Originally Posted by 11B2O View Post
    Easy solution, carry it in single action I think because of these issues is why I carry striker fired guns only. And the 2 hammered fired guns I do have, they are single action only.

    Sent from my DROID RAZR using Tapatalk 2
    No service allows you to carry the gun in SA. Or at least, none allow non-Spec Ops to carry that way (I don't know how Spec Ops can carry and don't want to talk for them).

    And thanks Skidmark, I'll be sure to take a look at that later.

  19. #19
    Regular Member
    Join Date
    Jan 2012
    Location
    High Point, NC
    Posts
    94

    Re: DA/SA transition too difficult? says who?

    Yea, I know how it is. I was referring the subject at hand, not specifically your instance. I wish they made the M9's so that you could carry it on safe on single action. Better yet, just replace it with the Glock 19 like ODA did. I guess it didnt really matter to me bc I always had the M4 or M14 EBR so I never got the M9.

    Sent from my DROID RAZR using Tapatalk 2
    The M4...serving scum the laws of terminal ballistics at 2,900FPS

  20. #20
    Regular Member
    Join Date
    Jul 2011
    Location
    northern wis
    Posts
    3,193
    Quote Originally Posted by 11B2O View Post
    Yea, I know how it is. I was referring the subject at hand, not specifically your instance. I wish they made the M9's so that you could carry it on safe on single action. Better yet, just replace it with the Glock 19 like ODA did. I guess it didnt really matter to me bc I always had the M4 or M14 EBR so I never got the M9.

    Sent from my DROID RAZR using Tapatalk 2

    Have used and carried both SA and DB/SA autos and trained hundreds in the use of DB/SA autos I personally don't see what the problem of useing a DB/SA auto. Or the need for SA only. With proper training and paractice there really isn't any differance with getting frist round or 2nd round or more hits.

    Its all about the training and learning to use what you carry. If one doesn't train properly or enough one is going to have trouble with any thing you carry.

    It dosen't take long when teaching to find out who in the class cares about what they are doing and the ones who do not care. The ones who don't care are the ones who well have a hard time no matter what type of firearm they are given.

  21. #21
    Regular Member
    Join Date
    Mar 2011
    Location
    California
    Posts
    1,797
    Quote Originally Posted by Firearms Iinstuctor View Post
    Have used and carried both SA and DB/SA autos and trained hundreds in the use of DB/SA autos I personally don't see what the problem of useing a DB/SA auto. Or the need for SA only. With proper training and paractice there really isn't any differance with getting frist round or 2nd round or more hits.

    Its all about the training and learning to use what you carry. If one doesn't train properly or enough one is going to have trouble with any thing you carry.

    It dosen't take long when teaching to find out who in the class cares about what they are doing and the ones who do not care. The ones who don't care are the ones who well have a hard time no matter what type of firearm they are given.
    I guess you don't understand the state of the military currently. Sure with proper training the issue is solved, but the military rarely gives "proper training" unless you are one of the few who somehow manage to "qualify" for it, something most military members don't. Not that people shouldn't take their training into their own hands, but that isn't something that the military really helps most people with.

    This training issue was also part of the reason for switching a bunch of guns from full auto to 3rd burst (or so I hear). A lot easier to simply mechanically limit the fire than to actually train the people how to handle full auto. And even now they only just added in 3rd burst training (and you get a whopping 9 rounds to practice with).

    So really, the military needs to work on supplying proper training for people in the military.

  22. #22
    Regular Member
    Join Date
    Jul 2011
    Location
    northern wis
    Posts
    3,193
    Quote Originally Posted by Aknazer View Post
    I guess you don't understand the state of the military currently. Sure with proper training the issue is solved, but the military rarely gives "proper training" unless you are one of the few who somehow manage to "qualify" for it, something most military members don't. Not that people shouldn't take their training into their own hands, but that isn't something that the military really helps most people with.

    This training issue was also part of the reason for switching a bunch of guns from full auto to 3rd burst (or so I hear). A lot easier to simply mechanically limit the fire than to actually train the people how to handle full auto. And even now they only just added in 3rd burst training (and you get a whopping 9 rounds to practice with).

    So really, the military needs to work on supplying proper training for people in the military.
    Thats why the military only allowed the 1911 to be carried with out a round in the chamber most of the time.

    It doesn't matter if its the military,LEOs or the normall average gun owner. Most gun owners do not train near enough with there firearms.

    Most people who have to carry a firearm no matter what type only shoot it, when they are forced to.

    What I found with LEOs that even with some exmilitary combat vets LEOs only shoot when they are told to. Thats about 90 percent of them another 7 percent of them do some training and shooting on their own.

    The other 3 percent are what I call hard core gun people who train and shoot and train and shoot a lot on their own.

    If a person wants to be a good shot they can't wait for the brass or someone else to tell when and where and how to do it. They have to have the drive to spent the time and money to do it themselves.

    No matter what firearm you give the frist 90 percent they are not going to be very good shots. The other 7 percent it might or might not make a differants depanding on the shooter but most can learn to use the fire arm given to them.

    The last 3 percent are going to shoot well with anything you give them. Because if it isn't something they are use to they well shoot it untill they master it.

    I think we are on the same page. My main point is for the good shooters it doesn't matter what type of firearm they use.

    For the rest one needs to give them the one that is the safest and least likely to cause problems for them.

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
  •