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Thread: Out Of State CPL (purchases) ??

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    Out Of State CPL (purchases) ??

    How does that work?

    I'll be getting an out of state CPL soon, and I wondered if I could use that, or do I still need to get a purchase permit to buy a handgun.

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    Regular Member TheQ's Avatar
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    Oh...so you are moving to Kentucky?

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    That wouldn't be an out of state CPL in this context.

    I have a Maine CWP on the way.

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    I could be wrong, but I don't believe a non-resident CPL will allow you to bypass the purchase permit.
    "God created man, Sam Colt made them equal."

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    I'm looking for cites.

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    Quote Originally Posted by stainless1911 View Post
    I'm looking for cites.
    not really a cite but this MAY cover it


    http://www.michigan.gov/msp/0,4643,7...5113--,00.html

    In Michigan, a person "shall not purchase, carry, or transport a pistol in this state without first having obtained a license for the pistol," as prescribed in MCL 28.422. These licenses shall be obtained by the local police agency. If the city, township, or village does not have an organized police agency, the license shall be obtained by the county sheriff department.

    There is an exception for a person licensed in Michigan to carry a concealed pistol. He or she must obtain a Pistol Sales Record (RI-060) any time he or she purchases or otherwise acquires a pistol, pursuant to MCL 28.422a.

    You are licensed in Maine not Michigan so IMHO you wouldn't qualify, Mi allows you to use your Maine CPL through reciprocality. But IANAL.
    "God created man, Sam Colt made them equal."

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    You're probably right. Let's see what others come up with.

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    Regular Member Raggs's Avatar
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    Is this looking to utilize a loop hole in the state law?

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    My plain reading of the law says you will still have to use a purchase permit.
    Anything I post may be my opinion and not the law... you are responsible to do your own verification.

    Blackstone (1753-1765) maintains that "the law holds that it is better that ten guilty persons escape than that one innocent suffer."

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    Regular Member TheQ's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by autosurgeon View Post
    My plain reading of the law says you will still have to use a purchase permit.
    Now the next question is: will OCSD give him one?

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    Campaign Veteran smellslikemichigan's Avatar
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    they will need cause to deny. do they have that? i guess the only way to find out is to apply for a PP.
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    Regular Member TheQ's Avatar
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    They don't need good cause. Just like Lansing didn't need good cause to yank Tyler around.

    Why not? They knew Tyler didn't have the money or resources to fight it in court. I'd wager same applies here.

    Why do you think Neil started this thread? He's afraid OCSD is going to yank him around and he knows he doesn't have the resources to fight it.


    This isn't trolling, it's just reality.

    If LPD gave me to hassle (I have a MI CPL so I don't deal with them), I do have the resources to take them to court, I'd file a motion for a writ if mandamus, and sue for costs and punitive.

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    Regular Member xmanhockey7's Avatar
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    The law provides an exemption for a U.S. citizen to be exempt from obtaining a license to purchase if they are licensed by this state or another. However I think the another state part means if you're from Ohio and you're in Michigan carrying on you Ohio CHL.

    28.432 Inapplicability of MCL 28.422; amendatory act as “Janet Kukuk act”.
    Sec. 12. (1) Section 2 does not apply to any of the following:
    (f) A United States citizen holding a license to carry a pistol concealed upon his or her person issued by another state.
    "No state shall convert a liberty to a privilege, license it, and charge a fee therefor.- Murdock vs Pennsylvania 319 US 105

    ...If the state converts a right into a privelege, the citizen can ignore the license and fee and engage in the right... with impunity.
    - Shuttleworth vs City of Birmingham, Alabama 317 US 262

    Where rights secured by the Constitution are involved, there can be no legislation which would abrogate them.
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    Quote Originally Posted by stainless1911 View Post
    How does that work?

    I'll be getting an out of state CPL soon, and I wondered if I could use that, or do I still need to get a purchase permit to buy a handgun.
    28.422a Individual licensed under MCL 28.425b or a federally licensed firearms dealer; completion of record by seller; duties of purchaser; noncompliance as state civil infraction; penalty; forwarding copy of record to state police; exemption; material false statement as felony; penalty; rules; "federally licensed firearms dealer" defined. Sec. 2a.
    (1) An individual who is licensed under section 5b to carry a concealed pistol or who is a federally licensed firearms dealer is not required to obtain a license under section 2 to purchase, carry, possess, or transport a pistol.
    28.422 and 28.422a does not exempt Michigan residents who possess a non-resident license/permit to carry. Regardless of the state in which you obtain a license/permit, other than Michigan, you must obtain a LTP for handguns.

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    Quote Originally Posted by TheQ View Post
    They don't need good cause. Just like Lansing didn't need good cause to yank Tyler around.

    Why not? They knew Tyler didn't have the money or resources to fight it in court. I'd wager same applies here.

    Why do you think Neil started this thread? He's afraid OCSD is going to yank him around and he knows he doesn't have the resources to fight it.


    This isn't trolling, it's just reality.

    If LPD gave me to hassle (I have a MI CPL so I don't deal with them), I do have the resources to take them to court, I'd file a motion for a writ if mandamus, and sue for costs and punitive.
    I do not believe you are trolling.

    I have no intentions of buying another pistol in the foreseeable future. I have the one I want. The only handgun out there that I want besides the M&P, is about 5 grand.

    The only hassle I might expect if I were in the market, would be probation. It's only until April/
    Last edited by stainless1911; 08-02-2012 at 11:00 PM.

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    Regular Member Bronson's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by SpringerXDacp View Post
    28.422 and 28.422a does not exempt Michigan residents who possess a non-resident license/permit to carry.
    My personal opinion is that it wouldn't work but playing the Devil's advocate here....

    28.432 does provide an exemption from 28.422 for any U.S. citizen licensed to CC by any state.

    (1) Section 2 does not apply to any of the following:

    . . .

    (f) A United States citizen holding a license to carry a pistol concealed upon his or her person issued by another state.
    The "Section 2" in red above referes to MCL 28.422 in its entirety. So a plain reading of 28.432 states that any citizen licensed by any state to CC is exempt from 28.422. There are no residency requirements listed, Michigan or otherwise.

    28.422 License to purchase, carry, possess, or transport pistol; issuance; qualifications; applications; sale of pistol; exemptions; nonresidents; basic pistol safety brochure; forging application; implementation during business hours.

    Sec. 2.
    Still, I don't think it would work.

    Bronson
    Last edited by Bronson; 08-02-2012 at 11:20 PM.
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    Regular Member Ezerharden's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by stainless1911 View Post
    How does that work?

    I'll be getting an out of state CPL soon, and I wondered if I could use that, or do I still need to get a purchase permit to buy a handgun.
    Quote Originally Posted by stainless1911 View Post
    I do not believe you are trolling.

    I have no intentions of buying another pistol in the foreseeable future. I have the one I want. The only handgun out there that I want besides the M&P, is about 5 grand.

    The only hassle I might expect if I were in the market, would be probation. It's only until April/
    Not trying to start anything, just wondering why you asked the question, and seemed to indicate the desire to buy another handgun, then state you are not looking to buy one?
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    It was just general education question that crossed my mind while walking home last night. Besides, it's been a while since we explored laws in this way, its a different, not very common issue.

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    Regular Member Ezerharden's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by stainless1911 View Post
    It was just general education question that crossed my mind while walking home last night. Besides, it's been a while since we explored laws in this way, its a different, not very common issue.
    Ah ok
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    Regular Member autosurgeon's Avatar
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    Many times in the past we explored laws just in this way.. not because of any special issue but because someone wondered. I enjoyed and learned from those discussions let's keep em coming and everyone remember we can always learn something new if we explored!

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    Michigan Moderator DrTodd's Avatar
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    Two separate set of laws come into play here: Federal Law and State Law.

    Under Federal Law, in order to purchase a handgun in a state, you must be a resident of that state. Additionally, an NCIS check must be completed before the sale to verify that the person is not prohibited, under federal law, from purchasing firearms. However, there is an exception in Federal Law for certain state permits to serve in the place of an NCIS check. see: http://www.atf.gov/publications/down...rmit_chart.pdf

    If you look at the list above, you will notice that Michigan's CPL serves as an exception to the NCIS check; Maine's license does not. So, even if Maine wanted to give an exception for an NCIS check to Maine license holders, they could not do so.

    Remember, under Federal Law, in order to purchase a handgun in a state, you must be a resident of that state. For residents without a CPL, Michigan (MSP) also is considered a Point of Contact (POC) for the check under the Brady law ie the local PD runs the check, not NCIS. What this means is that a person with a License to Purchase from their PD technically does not need to have an NCIS completed at the sale; the check has already been completed at the state level. I know, however, that most FFLs will still do a check if the purchaser has a License to Purchase from the local PD.http://www.atf.gov/publications/down...ence_table.pdf

    Since Michigan's License to Purchase is the state POC's certification that the check has been done, and all resident's need to get the License to Purchase or have a CPL, you would be out of luck. Additionally, Maine's license to conceal is not acceptable as an NCIS exception so, even in the state of Maine, the license to conceal does not provide an exception to the NCIS check.

    So Stainless, on both accounts, I think you are out of luck.
    Last edited by DrTodd; 08-03-2012 at 11:20 AM.
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  22. #22
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    Quote Originally Posted by DrTodd View Post
    Two separate set of laws come into play here: Federal Law and State Law.

    Under Federal Law, in order to purchase a handgun in a state, you must be a resident of that state. Additionally, an NCIS check must be completed before the sale to verify that the person is not prohibited, under federal law, from purchasing firearms. However, there is an exception in Federal Law for certain state permits to serve in the place of an NCIS check. see: http://www.atf.gov/publications/down...rmit_chart.pdf

    If you look at the list above, you will notice that Michigan's CPL serves as an exception to the NCIS check; Maine's license does not. So, even if Maine wanted to give an exception for an NCIS check to Maine license holders, they could not do so.

    Remember, under Federal Law, in order to purchase a handgun in a state, you must be a resident of that state. For residents without a CPL, Michigan (MSP) also is considered a Point of Contact (POC) for the check under the Brady law ie the local PD runs the check, not NCIS. What this means is that a person with a License to Purchase from their PD technically does not need to have an NCIS completed at the sale; the check has already been completed at the state level. I know, however, that most FFLs will still do a check if the purchaser has a License to Purchase from the local PD.http://www.atf.gov/publications/down...ence_table.pdf

    Since Michigan's License to Purchase is the state POC's certification that the check has been done, and all resident's need to get the License to Purchase or have a CPL, you would be out of luck. Additionally, Maine's license to conceal is not acceptable as an NCIS exception so, even in the state of Maine, the license to conceal does not provide an exception to the NCIS check.

    So Stainless, on both accounts, you I think you are out of luck.
    Great analysis and summary.
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    Regular Member Bronson's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by DrTodd View Post
    Two separate set of laws come into play here: Federal Law and State Law....
    Very nice.

    Bronson
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