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Thread: Exercise with Thomas Jefferson!

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    Regular Member M-Taliesin's Avatar
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    Exercise with Thomas Jefferson!

    Howdy Folks!
    I just stumbled on this gem from Thomas Jefferson to his nephew, Peter Carr, on health and exercise.
    ===========

    A strong body makes the mind strong. As to the species of exercise, I advise the gun. While this gives a moderate exercise to the body, it gives boldness, enterprise, and independence to the mind. Games played with the ball, and others of that nature, are too violent for the body, and stamp no character on the mind. Let your gun therefore be the constant companion of your walks.
    ===========

    Then again, what would he know. He only wrote our Constitution of the United States and all.

    Blessings,
    M-Taliesin

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    Quote Originally Posted by M-Taliesin View Post

    Then again, what would he know. He only wrote our Constitution of the United States and all.
    No, he didn't. Not sure I agree with the advice either. "That was a different time" and life was less sedentary now. I agree shooting is a good mental exercise, but it should be supplemented with other physical training to maintain good health.

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    I have never taken any exercise except sleeping and resting. - Mark Twain
    Water, taken in moderation, cannot hurt anybody. - Mark Twain
    Mark Twain.....right smart fella there.
    "I would rather be exposed to the inconveniences attending too much liberty than to those attending too small a degree of it." - Thomas Jefferson.

    "Better that ten guilty persons escape, than that one innocent suffer" - English jurist William Blackstone.
    It is AFAIK original to me. Compromise is failure on the installment plan, particularly when dealing with so intractable an opponent as ignorance. - Nightmare

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    Quote Originally Posted by M-Taliesin View Post
    Howdy Folks!
    I just stumbled on this gem from Thomas Jefferson to his nephew, Peter Carr, on health and exercise.
    ===========

    A strong body makes the mind strong. As to the species of exercise, I advise the gun. While this gives a moderate exercise to the body, it gives boldness, enterprise, and independence to the mind. Games played with the ball, and others of that nature, are too violent for the body, and stamp no character on the mind. Let your gun therefore be the constant companion of your walks.
    ===========

    Then again, what would he know. He only wrote our Constitution of the United States and all.

    Blessings,
    M-Taliesin

    Jefferson wrote the Declaration of Independence. He was in France during the constitutional convention.

    Separately, I consider it noteworthy that on his grave marker he wanted three accomplishments listed: author of the Declaration of Independence and the VA statute for religious freedom, and founder of UVa. Note that he didn't mention the presidency, secretary of state, or minister to France.

    http://www.monticello.org/site/jeffe...omas-jefferson
    Last edited by Citizen; 08-02-2012 at 01:21 PM.
    I'll make you an offer: I will argue and fight for all of your rights, if you will do the same for me. That is the only way freedom can work. We have to respect all rights, all the time--and strive to win the rights of the other guy as much as for ourselves.

    If I am equal to another, how can I legitimately govern him without his express individual consent?

    There is no human being on earth I hate so much I would actually vote to inflict government upon him.

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    Quote Originally Posted by mahkagari View Post
    No, he didn't. Not sure I agree with the advice either. "That was a different time" and life was less sedentary now. I agree shooting is a good mental exercise, but it should be supplemented with other physical training to maintain good health.
    Have you ever hiked the mountains around Monticello with a 10 lb rifle?
    I'll make you an offer: I will argue and fight for all of your rights, if you will do the same for me. That is the only way freedom can work. We have to respect all rights, all the time--and strive to win the rights of the other guy as much as for ourselves.

    If I am equal to another, how can I legitimately govern him without his express individual consent?

    There is no human being on earth I hate so much I would actually vote to inflict government upon him.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Citizen View Post
    Have you ever hiked the mountains around Monticello with a 10 lb rifle?
    Yes, but near Drake, with a 40 lb pack on top of that. And wondering how many trips in and out it would take if I managed to take a buck. But that's hunting, not shooting.

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    Quote Originally Posted by mahkagari View Post
    No, he didn't. Not sure I agree with the advice either. "That was a different time" and life was less sedentary now. I agree shooting is a good mental exercise, but it should be supplemented with other physical training to maintain good health.
    Really? Do you think back then, in those horse and buggy days, with everyone walking on average more than a mile a day, and by TJ's suggestion of "walks" to his nephew he was talking about around an hour i.e. three miles, that perhaps they weren't anywhere near as bereft of cardiovascular exercise as we are today?

    I maintain, kind Sir, understanding Mr. Jefferson's considerations as they are, as such: "it gives boldness, enterprise, and independence to the mind," that perhaps those of us who're bold, full of enterprise, and mindfully independent might wish to give at least some consideration to good TJ's words. Even Jefferson said that walks (an hour was considered a "short walk" back then) with a firearm was only moderate exercise.

    His most important observation, key during this Olympiad, is that our human condition can be perfect, the state of our souls before God can be perfect, and yet, when it comes to the administration of our affairs with our brothers, if our minds be sour, our time on this Earth may very well be for naught.

    In short, I think TJ was shooting (pun intended) for a greater character of our minds.

    M-T: Outstanding find, my friend!
    The First protects the Second, and the Second protects the First. Together, they protect the rest of our Bill of Rights and our United States Constitution, and help We the People protect ourselves in the spirit of our Declaration of Independence.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Citizen View Post
    Jefferson wrote the Declaration of Independence. He was in France during the constitutional convention.
    I believe, Sir, you are correct.

    Separately, I consider it noteworthy that on his grave marker he wanted three accomplishments listed: author of the Declaration of Independence and the VA statute for religious freedom, and founder of UVa. Note that he didn't mention the presidency, secretary of state, or minister to France.
    Regardless of the democratic (hereafter to forever replace the term 'sophomoric') attempts at his discreditation, or of any genuine discretion, he remains one of the brightest and most learned among our Founding Fathers. I find his letter to the Danbury Baptist Church as brilliant as I find all subsequent mentions of "church and state" abhorrently moronic.

    More...
    The First protects the Second, and the Second protects the First. Together, they protect the rest of our Bill of Rights and our United States Constitution, and help We the People protect ourselves in the spirit of our Declaration of Independence.

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    Regular Member M-Taliesin's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Citizen View Post
    Jefferson wrote the Declaration of Independence. He was in France during the constitutional convention.

    http://www.monticello.org/site/jeffe...omas-jefferson
    Howdy Citizen!
    The resounding thud heard by neighbors hereabouts this morning would have been my forehead coming down hard upon the desktop!

    Yeah, I blew that one alright. That's what I get for posting early in the morning.
    I shouldn't try writing until I'm on my second coffee at least!
    All I can tell ya is..................
    DUH!!!!
    Can't explain it, just gotta accept that I hosed that one up pretty good!

    Thanks for setting the thing straight.
    Now if you'll excuse me, I need to fetch a second cuppa coffee.

    Blessings,
    M-Taliesin

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    Quote Originally Posted by since9 View Post
    Regardless of the democratic (hereafter to forever replace the term 'sophomoric') attempts at his discreditation, or of any genuine discretion, he remains one of the brightest and most learned among our Founding Fathers. I find his letter to the Danbury Baptist Church as brilliant as I find all subsequent mentions of "church and state" abhorrently moronic
    Although I have read it before, I only noticed this time his comment about refraining from prescribing devotions. The date of the letter puts it during his presidency.

    Separately, I suppose there is a lesson here. A king or president should be careful about his metaphors. Before long certain knuckleheads will demand enforcement of the metaphor instead of the law.
    I'll make you an offer: I will argue and fight for all of your rights, if you will do the same for me. That is the only way freedom can work. We have to respect all rights, all the time--and strive to win the rights of the other guy as much as for ourselves.

    If I am equal to another, how can I legitimately govern him without his express individual consent?

    There is no human being on earth I hate so much I would actually vote to inflict government upon him.

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    Quote Originally Posted by since9 View Post
    really? Do you think back then, in those horse and buggy days, with everyone walking on average more than a mile a day, and by tj's suggestion of "walks" to his nephew he was talking about around an hour i.e. Three miles, that perhaps they weren't anywhere near as bereft of cardiovascular exercise as we are today?

    I maintain, kind sir, understanding mr. Jefferson's considerations as they are, as such: "it gives boldness, enterprise, and independence to the mind," that perhaps those of us who're bold, full of enterprise, and mindfully independent might wish to give at least some consideration to good tj's words. Even jefferson said that walks (an hour was considered a "short walk" back then) with a firearm was only moderate exercise.

    His most important observation, key during this olympiad, is that our human condition can be perfect, the state of our souls before god can be perfect, and yet, when it comes to the administration of our affairs with our brothers, if our minds be sour, our time on this earth may very well be for naught.

    In short, i think tj was shooting (pun intended) for a greater character of our minds.
    !
    what????

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    Quote Originally Posted by Citizen View Post
    Jefferson wrote the Declaration of Independence. He was in France during the constitutional convention.

    Separately, I consider it noteworthy that on his grave marker he wanted three accomplishments listed: author of the Declaration of Independence and the VA statute for religious freedom, and founder of UVa. Note that he didn't mention the presidency, secretary of state, or minister to France.

    http://www.monticello.org/site/jeffe...omas-jefferson
    Or being a slave owner !!!!

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    Quote Originally Posted by davidmcbeth View Post
    Or being a slave owner !!!!
    True.

    Keep in mind that none of the Founders were angels. They were for the most part politicians and lawyers--Jefferson was the latter. And, that slavery was the institution in which some of them were raised.

    Anybody can spot contradictions by today's standards against those of the late 17th and early 18th centuries. Its far better, I think, to try to understand the thinking/rationale/justifications of those who seemingly contradicted themselves.

    For myself, I've got two biographies and a book on the dark side of Jefferson under my belt.

    Thus, I know that both Jefferson and George Mason (agitator for the Bill of Rights, author of VA's declaration of rights) disliked slavery. Yet, kept slaves. Why? Were their anti-slavery comments just political rhetoric? Were they locked-in to their situation where freeing their slaves meant penury to them and their loved ones? Even if lies, I can hardly imagine anyone short of a saint freeing his slaves when it likely meant he would become a pauper or take a dramatic loss in his standard of living. (And, likely his ability to influence political events for the better in the cases of Jefferson and Mason.)

    Jefferson was a man of contradictions, like most. For example, he was firmly on the side of freedom, yet he prompted a Bill of Attainder during the revolution! Huh!?! A legislative declaration of outlawry, authorizing the killing of the people named in the bill without trial or due process? Yep. Jefferson did that.

    And, if you look closely, you will see no constitutional authority for the Lousiana Purchase. He also came close to beggaring New England by blocking trade with (England or France?) As vice-president under Adams, he authored the Kentuck Resolves--resolutions that states could ignore unconstitutional federal actions. Huh!?! The vice-president undermined the federal government? Yep.

    Furthermore, there were rumors of a conspiracy to separate some western states--Mississipi? Tennessee?--which he took seriously and acted against. Not entirely fairly.

    Why?

    I know he felt the LA Purchase was too great an opportunity to pass up, what with the territorial expansion it would allow. And, during the conspiracy business I think he remarked that sometimes the law did not foresee certain circumstances and had to be circumvented or ignored. This last sounds pretty dire, until you realize he was a lawyer by training; if anybody would understand that concept, it would be a lawyer. Otherwise, I can't really speak to his motives for the contradictions.

    But, I can say with a certain level of confidence that some of the Founders left us with very good guiding principles. Jefferson was one of those. George Mason another. Patrick Henry. Others are counted as great for their deeds--Washington and Adams for their presidencys, administrations that saw our monetary future handed to bankers (Washington at the advice of Hamilton), and a bald-faced affront to the Bill of Rights (Alien and Sedition Acts--Adams). They were great because they moved in circles greater than your average farmer or fish-monger.

    But, only a very few left us principles. Like those in the Declaration of Independence and the VA Statute for Religious Freedom.
    Last edited by Citizen; 08-03-2012 at 07:48 PM.
    I'll make you an offer: I will argue and fight for all of your rights, if you will do the same for me. That is the only way freedom can work. We have to respect all rights, all the time--and strive to win the rights of the other guy as much as for ourselves.

    If I am equal to another, how can I legitimately govern him without his express individual consent?

    There is no human being on earth I hate so much I would actually vote to inflict government upon him.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Citizen View Post
    For myself, I've got two biographies and a book on the dark side of Jefferson under my belt.

    Thus, I know that both Jefferson and George Mason (agitator for the Bill of Rights, author of VA's declaration of rights) disliked slavery. Yet, kept slaves. Why? Were their anti-slavery comments just political rhetoric? Were they locked-in to their situation where freeing their slaves meant penury to them and their loved ones? Even if lies, I can hardly imagine anyone short of a saint freeing his slaves when it likely meant he would become a pauper or take a dramatic loss in his standard of living. (And, likely his ability to influence political events for the better in the cases of Jefferson and Mason.)

    Jefferson was a man of contradictions, like most. For example, he was firmly on the side of freedom, yet he prompted a Bill of Attainder during the revolution! Huh!?! A legislative declaration of outlawry, authorizing the killing of the people named in the bill without trial or due process? Yep. Jefferson did that.
    AND....he played the violin.....


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    Quote Originally Posted by mahkagari View Post
    AND....he played the violin...
    I loved Franklin's humor about the pen being mightier than the sword.


    I'll see your video and raise you four notches of patriotism with another video. And, one that speaks to Jefferson and slavery in the introduction at that. Take note of Mr. Freeman's comments at 2:15.

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jYytt...eature=related
    I'll make you an offer: I will argue and fight for all of your rights, if you will do the same for me. That is the only way freedom can work. We have to respect all rights, all the time--and strive to win the rights of the other guy as much as for ourselves.

    If I am equal to another, how can I legitimately govern him without his express individual consent?

    There is no human being on earth I hate so much I would actually vote to inflict government upon him.

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    Regular Member M-Taliesin's Avatar
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    Howdy Folks!
    I enjoy the heck out of the movie 1776. It was a neat little musical about the Continental Congress trying to cobble together a new nation. In the film, and I suppose a reflection of the actual turmoil, you see the debate regarding slavery. Even though presented in song, the fire and passion of those men comes through. Actors, yeah... but they managed to deliver a tremendous insight into how contentious an issue slavery was at the time.

    They ended up settling by leaving the subject of slavery for subsequent generations to work out, and left it stand, knowing that their attempt to form this union would be doomed to fail if they didn't. It is made pretty clear in the film (which I believe was intended to be accurate in that particular) that this nation very nearly didn't happen. All the while, a messenger would appear from time to time with word from Washington. Things were not always going well in the battle against Britain. That we became a nation at all is nearly remarkable considering they were up against the super-power of their day.

    Were any of those men perfect gentlemen? Nope! Nary any. Yet, they had the resolve to throw off the chains of tyrrany. They stood up against the most powerful navy and military forces of their day, and fought to win Independence.

    And not many kids graduating from high school today can name most of those men, or their deeds that set us free. Guess they don't elaborate on history much in schools these days. That is a thing of great shame in a nation such as ours. We ought celebrate our flawed fathers, for in nearly every respect, they were little different than we are today. They drank, slept around, had odd proclivities, but when called upon by destiny, rose above themselves to achieve greatness among men, and create an even greater nation that still stands on the concepts they devised for these new people calling themselves Americans.

    Anyhow, without them, we'd all be signing God Save the Queen!

    Blessings,
    M-Taliesin
    Last edited by M-Taliesin; 08-03-2012 at 11:57 PM.

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    Quote Originally Posted by M-Taliesin View Post
    SNIP Anyhow, without them, we'd all be signing God Save the Queen!
    Would the deafness be the result of tyranny? Loud music?
    I'll make you an offer: I will argue and fight for all of your rights, if you will do the same for me. That is the only way freedom can work. We have to respect all rights, all the time--and strive to win the rights of the other guy as much as for ourselves.

    If I am equal to another, how can I legitimately govern him without his express individual consent?

    There is no human being on earth I hate so much I would actually vote to inflict government upon him.

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    Quote Originally Posted by M-Taliesin View Post
    They ended up settling by leaving the subject of slavery for subsequent generations to work out, and left it stand, knowing that their attempt to form this union would be doomed to fail if they didn't. It is made pretty clear in the film (which I believe was intended to be accurate in that particular) that this nation very nearly didn't happen. All the while, a messenger would appear from time to time with word from Washington. Things were not always going well in the battle against Britain. That we became a nation at all is nearly remarkable considering they were up against the super-power of their day.


    Doesn't include "Molasses to Rum", an impassioned pro-slavery number which I really enjoy contemplating. Not that I'm pro-slavery, but that on any issue, you may be against something in principle, but you need to consider all the implications lest you find yourself a hypocrite.

    Anyhow, without them, we'd all be signing God Save the Queen!
    We do sing that. Or rather, people sing "My Country 'Tis of Thee" while our Brit friends are trying to sing their anthem. Seriously, y'all. Cut that $#!+ out. It's rude.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Citizen View Post
    I loved Franklin's humor about the pen being mightier than the sword.


    I'll see your video and raise you four notches of patriotism with another video. And, one that speaks to Jefferson and slavery in the introduction at that. Take note of Mr. Freeman's comments at 2:15.

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jYytt...eature=related
    Worth quoting Wikipedia:

    "In 2008, the TV series African American Lives 2 revealed that some of Freeman's great-great-grandparents were slaves who migrated from North Carolina to Mississippi. Freeman also discovered that his caucasian maternal great-great-grandfather had lived with, and was buried beside, Freeman's African-American great-great-grandmother (the two could not legally marry at the time, in the South)."

    Also note the man's surname etymology.

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    Quote Originally Posted by M-Taliesin View Post
    Howdy Folks!
    I enjoy the heck out of the movie 1776. It was a neat little musical about the Continental Congress trying to cobble together a new nation.
    More little important tidbits coming.

    Rather than cobble together a nation, they severed ties, declaring, "That these united Colonies are, and of Right ought to be Free and Independent States" The result was thirteen independent countries, rather than one.

    Even the soon-to-be Articles of Confederation and Perpetual Union did not create a nation, merely a confederacy or league of independent sovereign states.

    Similar for the Constitution. If the federalists admitted they were forming a single country, there would have been more fighting. They focused more on the idea of a "vigorous" government able to meet exigencies. (Vigorous was their spin word for powerful.)

    It was not until the end of Lincoln's War to Prevent Southern Independence that it became a (singular) nation. Even as far along as the late 1850's, the states were considered independent countries, the fedgov in effect their agent for dealing with each other and other countries. Mark Twain reveals an interesting viewpoint in his essays on steamboat piloting. The pilot who trained him, Bixby, told him one day that pilots did not run the narrow, shallow channels between islands and shores during "low water". Bixby remarked that he thought there was "a law of the United States against it." Meaning, The United States, was an alternate term for the federal government, not a country. Another example would be Robert E. Lee's reasoning for resigning his commission in the US Army: he could not lift his sword against his country--Virginia.

    An interesting little side note that tells you a lot about the possible mentality of people in power. The Articles of Confederation and Perpetual Union were meant to last forever. Says so right in its name. Yet, in 1787 the federalists morphed* a convention to improve the articles into a convention to write a different form of government, the intention being to abolish a confederacy that was agreed to be perpetual. But! In 1861, when a number of states--countries holding membership in a union that was not perpetual--decided to un-unite, they got cannon balls for a reply. So much for Jefferson's idea, "That whenever any Form of Government becomes destructive of these ends, it is the Right of the People to alter or abolish it, and to institute new Government, laying its foundation on such principles and organizing its powers in such form, as to them shall seem most likely to effect their Safety and Happiness."

    And, of course, that "one nation under God" business in the Pledge of Allegiance didn't help understanding matters any.

    The lesson is that public school history lessons leave something to be desired.

    Of course, in the foregoing I am misusing the term nation. Mainly because I use it in the same way I perceive Taliesin misused it. I was just keeping the terminology consistent. Country, state, and nation are of course not synonymous. Even if we use nation properly, the congress that gave us the Declaration would not have been creating a new nation. In this meaning, the colonials were already one nation: English colonists.

    *They did this without authority from their state governments. In fact, a number of delegates quit early in protest, saying they did not have the authority to re-write the scheme of the federation.
    Last edited by Citizen; 08-04-2012 at 01:15 AM.
    I'll make you an offer: I will argue and fight for all of your rights, if you will do the same for me. That is the only way freedom can work. We have to respect all rights, all the time--and strive to win the rights of the other guy as much as for ourselves.

    If I am equal to another, how can I legitimately govern him without his express individual consent?

    There is no human being on earth I hate so much I would actually vote to inflict government upon him.

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    Quote Originally Posted by mahkagari View Post
    SNIP We do sing that. Or rather, people sing "My Country 'Tis of Thee" while our Brit friends are trying to sing their anthem. Seriously, y'all. Cut that $#!+ out. It's rude.
    He didn't say sing. Read again what he wrote. Carefully.
    I'll make you an offer: I will argue and fight for all of your rights, if you will do the same for me. That is the only way freedom can work. We have to respect all rights, all the time--and strive to win the rights of the other guy as much as for ourselves.

    If I am equal to another, how can I legitimately govern him without his express individual consent?

    There is no human being on earth I hate so much I would actually vote to inflict government upon him.

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    Quote Originally Posted by mahkagari View Post
    Worth quoting Wikipedia:

    "In 2008, the TV series African American Lives 2 revealed that some of Freeman's great-great-grandparents were slaves who migrated from North Carolina to Mississippi. Freeman also discovered that his caucasian maternal great-great-grandfather had lived with, and was buried beside, Freeman's African-American great-great-grandmother (the two could not legally marry at the time, in the South)."

    Also note the man's surname etymology.
    I did notice the significance of his name. Didn't know the other stuff, though. Thanks!
    I'll make you an offer: I will argue and fight for all of your rights, if you will do the same for me. That is the only way freedom can work. We have to respect all rights, all the time--and strive to win the rights of the other guy as much as for ourselves.

    If I am equal to another, how can I legitimately govern him without his express individual consent?

    There is no human being on earth I hate so much I would actually vote to inflict government upon him.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Citizen View Post
    He didn't say sing. Read again what he wrote. Carefully.
    Ah. A bit harder to "mishear" the tune that way.


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    Quote Originally Posted by mahkagari View Post
    Ah. A bit harder to "mishear" the tune that way.
    In that case:



    Now to see how badly tears will effect my keyboard's function.

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    Quote Originally Posted by JTHunter View Post
    He also made a reference toe the game of golf, calling it "a good walk spoiled."
    He was also an OCer for a while. I can't recall exactly, but I think he said it was a little S&W. The book is Roughing It.

    Found it: I was armed to the teeth with a pitiful little Smith & Wesson's seven-shooter, which carried a ball like a homoeopathic pill, and it took the whole seven to make a dose for an adult. But I thought it was grand. It appeared to me to be a dangerous weapon. It only had one fault—you could not hit anything with it. One of our "conductors" practiced awhile on a cow with it, and as long as she stood still and behaved herself she was safe; but as soon as she went to moving about, and he got to shooting at other things, she came to grief.

    http://www.gutenberg.org/files/3177/3177-h/3177-h.htm Chapter II, paragraph 2.
    Last edited by Citizen; 08-05-2012 at 02:49 AM.
    I'll make you an offer: I will argue and fight for all of your rights, if you will do the same for me. That is the only way freedom can work. We have to respect all rights, all the time--and strive to win the rights of the other guy as much as for ourselves.

    If I am equal to another, how can I legitimately govern him without his express individual consent?

    There is no human being on earth I hate so much I would actually vote to inflict government upon him.

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