Just out of curiosity.

Fallschirmjäger said:

Are you certain of that?
In most states, drinking alcohol and tobacco are taxed and must have stamps affixed to the bottle or cigarette package (at least from memory, I haven't seen either in 10 years.) Does Officer Friendly have the authority to see if the package of smokes in your shirt pocket is wearing a properly affixed tax stamp?

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http://www.ar15.com/forums/t_6_17/367276_.html

It is not necessary to carry the actual tax stamp along with the NFA item but it is necessary to be able to conclusively demonstrate that the tax was paid and the stamp issued. The only folks who need to see the actual stamp are BAFTEIEIO agents and they cannot require you to produce it on the spot. Some states have laws that prohibit possession of NFA firearms "unless possessed in accordance with federal law." Non-ATFEIEIO cops in those states can demand to see proof that your silencer is possessed in accordance with federal law in order to determine that a state law violation has not occurred.

As to your specific question - while Ossifer Friendly usually is not be empowered to investigate whether or not the federal tax stamp for alchohol or tobacco is affixed, he can investigate whether or not the state tax has been paid. The only way he can determine if the state tax has been paid is by seeing the federal tax stamp which is affixed only after the state tax is paid. Sort of round-about, but as long as he stays within his authorization to enforce state law and does not venture into trying to enforce a federal law he is not authorized to enforce, he still gets to look at the stamp.

Easier to understand than a used car warranty, isn't it?

stay safe.

So sad that the burden of proof lies on the shoulders of law abiding citizens.

:O So, wait, Gutshot isn't single!? Ah well, C'mere Hotrod

On a less than serious, but more than jokingly so~

How hard is it exactly, to obtain all the permission, and form waiting and stuff, to get a NFA suppressor, or, assuming it's labeled under the same process as going for a NFA Auto weapon, whats the difficulty in getting the forms and permission to own a non-firing howitzer, or replica firing civil war cannon? I'm really tired of finding my nosy neighbor helping himself to my backyard garden [CCTV confirmed], and want more of a deterrent to people who insist on using my drive-way to make a turn-around. LOL.

I want a Howitzer. Fill the barrel with concrete, dun care, just having it pointing down my driveway >.>

Yep, you can have a fully working modern howitzer for the same $200 tax stamp, if you can find someone to sell it.

The problem, aside from the outrageous cost of feeding the beast, is that each individual explosive projectile would also be a destructive device that had to be taxed and registered.

If I am not mistaken, all muzzle loading cannons are exempt for the law. I remember reading somewhere (you know how reliable that is) that only breech loading weapons, such as modern cannons, are DDs.

I don't think the BATFE regs allow a mere citizen to possess or own any modern firearm with a rifled barrel larger than .50cal. I believe antiques and relics are excluded for this regulation.
I believe the same regs require the payment of a "making tax" and approval prior to one making the own firearm. I believe this also covers mortars and cannons.

JoeSparky said:

I don't think the BATFE regs allow a mere citizen to possess or own any modern firearm with a rifled barrel larger than .50cal.

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Anything larger is a Destructive Device, as already covered above. Perfectly legal, with taxation and registration.

And let's not forget that some >.50 rifles have been given exemptions; .577, .600 Nitro Express, 9.5 JDJ but those are the rare exemptions.

KBCraig said:

Yep, you can have a fully working modern howitzer for the same $200 tax stamp, if you can find someone to sell it.

The problem, aside from the outrageous cost of feeding the beast, is that each individual explosive projectile would also be a destructive device that had to be taxed and registered.

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JoeSparky said:

I don't think the BATFE regs allow a mere citizen to possess or own any modern firearm with a rifled barrel larger than .50cal. I believe antiques and relics are excluded for this regulation.
I believe the same regs require the payment of a "making tax" and approval prior to one making the own firearm. I believe this also covers mortars and cannons.

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I don't know where you have heard this but it's incorrect. I'm fairly certain it is anything over .50 caliber if it is an anti-tank round.

From ATF website:

Q: The types of firearms that must be registered in the National Firearm Registration and Transfer Record are defined in the NFA and 27 CFR, Part 479. What are some examples?
Some examples of the types of firearms that must be registered are:
Machine guns;
The frames or receivers of machine guns;
Any combination of parts designed and intended for use in converting weapons into machine guns;
Any part designed and intended solely and exclusively for converting a weapon into a machine gun;
Any combination of parts from which a machine gun can be assembled if the parts are in the possession or under the control of a person;
Silencers and any part designed and intended for fabricating a silencer;
Short-barreled rifles;
Short-barreled shotguns;
Destructive devices; and,
“Any other weapon.”
A few examples of destructive devices are:
Molotov cocktails;
Anti-tank guns (over caliber .50);
Bazookas; and,
Mortars.
A few examples of “any other weapon” are:
H&R Handyguns;
Ithaca Auto-Burglar guns;
Cane guns; and,
Gadget-type firearms and “pen” guns which fire a projectile by the action of an explosive.
[26 U.S.C. 5845]

From ATF website:

Q: Are muzzleloading cannons classified as destructive devices?
Generally, no. Muzzleloading cannons not capable of firing fixed ammunition and manufactured in or before 1898 and replicas thereof are antiques and not subject to the provisions of either the GCA or the NFA.
[26 U.S.C. 5845, 27 CFR 479.11]


Anyone wanting to watch an NFA Howitzer in action should search for "fpsrussia" on YouTube. He has videos of most any full-auto weapon there is. His videos are awesome, and he is really from the states, not Russia.

gutshot said:

Possession of a machine gun or suppressor is a crime (both state and federal) in KY. They are illegal to possess. Possession of one of these items is probable cause for an arrest, if they want to push it. Having the required federal registration excepts you from that law. You have to show you have registered the item before you are excepted, but this is Ky. I have never been excessively bothered, by anyone.
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I was wrong about carrying the actual stamp, but not about carrying proof of registration. He asked if police can inspect the proper paper work to determine if you are indeed legally possessing the NFA item and I said they can. I messed up a word, buy not the whole statement. The simple possession of an NFA item gives law enforcement PC to examine your registration without any type of warrant. This is KY and is indeed very gun friendly, but like you always say, "If you haven't been harassed yet then you will be." I would never suggest someone go out of their house without documentation that proves they are legally possessing an NFA item. Not only will it get you arrested, it is stated on the ATF website that copies of registration SHOULD always be kept with every registered item. Afterall, if you don't have proof the NFA item is legal you will be setting in a jail cell.

KYGlockster said:

I don't know where you have heard this but it's incorrect. I'm fairly certain it is anything over .50 caliber if it is an anti-tank round.

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Here's the definition of "destructive device" from the actual law (26 USC 5845(f)).

(1) any explosive, incendiary, or poison gas, (A) bomb, (B) grenade, (C) rocket having a propellant charge of more than 4 ounces, (D) missile having an explosive charge of more than 1/4 ounce, (E) mine or (F) similar device.

(2) Any weapon by whatever name known which will, or which may be readily converted to, expel a projectile by the action of an explosive or other propellant, the barrel or barrels of which have a bore of more than one-half inch in diameter (.50 inches or 12.7mm), except a shotgun or shotgun shell which the Secretary finds is generally recognized as particularly suitable for sporting purposes; and

(3) Any combination of parts either designed or intended for use in converting any device into a destructive device as defined in subparagraphs (1) and (2) and from which a destructive device may be readily assembled.

The term destructive device shall not include any device which is neither designed nor redesigned for use as a weapon; any device, although originally designed for use as a weapon, which is redesigned for use as a signaling, pyrotechnic, line throwing, safety or similar device; surplus ordnance sold, loaned or given by the Secretary of the Army, pursuant to the provisions of section 4684(2), 4685, or 4686 of Title 10 of the United States Code; or any other device the Secretary finds is not likely to be used as a weapon, or is an antique or is a rifle which the owner intends to use solely for sporting purposes.

You are 100% right and I am completely wrong! I have just started to heavily research the NFA and GCA and I was thinking that definition applied to importers and manufacturers who had to pay a certain tax to do so with DDs. I do apologize for my ill informed mind making assumptions. Only weapons (firearms over .50 cal.) that are deemed to have a legitimate sporting purpose are available for possession without registration.

Hmm, I do wonder, how well "tannerite" fits into the destructive device laws/policy. It has uses of being a target thingy, mostly on the range, is only denotated by being shot at with a fast moving round... Yet, in large amounts [1litre] can open up a VW Beetle like a sardine can. Basically, off-topic for a moment, since this thread has covered much of my curiosity, xD, of various topics, then answer this; tannerite, Destructive device under the law, or legal target marker?

gutshot said:

I own a 12 guage Remington 870 shotgun with a rifled barrel for sabot slugs and its got a bore greater than .50 cal. Perfectly legal and no registration required.

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Yep, shotguns ate excluded per my recollection. Thanks!

Adding: after reading the rest of the posts I'll gladly defer to the posted quote of the actual law.
Carry on!

There are two components mixed to get tannerite: Basically it is ammonium nitrate and aluminum powder. These two components by themselves are legal to transport and possess, but once they are mixed to make tannerite you must follow strict regulations to transport and store. You can buy the products separately in large quantities and make numerous exploding targets. Tannerite is a cool way to practice with hyper velocity rifles, and does make a fairly large bang, therefore most of your gun clubs and ranges have prohibited its use.

KYGlockster said:

There are two components mixed to get tannerite: Basically it is ammonium nitrate and aluminum powder. These two components by themselves are legal to transport and possess, but once they are mixed to make tannerite you must follow strict regulations to transport and store. You can buy the products separately in large quantities and make numerous exploding targets. Tannerite is a cool way to practice with hyper velocity rifles, and does make a fairly large bang, therefore most of your gun clubs and ranges have prohibited its use.

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I understand, and know that, silly~ the BF likes his targets to go boom when he hits them, and goes through 50lb a week it seems. I was more focusing on the documented proof that it's legal to own the two compounds, and to own, and use the end-result of the mixing of the two together. Besides the lil orange labels on the tannerite jars that says it's legal to use as a target marker, non of the jars, or the boxes they come in, link back/provide a solid statue/code that makes it all okay. We haven't been able to find a state law that makes it all fine and dandy, and although the BF doesn't care about being pulled over and being detained and having an illegal search conducted and a eager LEO finding the two compounds and wanting to make a fuss over it, I do happen to care enough to ask, xD.

The law normally tells us what we can't do or have, etc, so if it isn't specified it is legal to have or possess. There are stipulations on transporting and such, but nothing that says it is not legal to possess. If there was a law that prohibited its possession by individuals, it would not be available for our use. There are still small restrictions on the transport of the two compounds that make tannerite, but not like there is once it is mixed.

I'm sure there are some STATES that prohibit its possession, but not in KY. Keep in mind that if it was used to cause damage you could find yourself in serious trouble.

50lbs a week?

Holy crap! That's a load of cash!

KYGlockster said:

The law normally tells us what we can't do or have, etc, so if it isn't specified it is legal to have or possess. There are stipulations on transporting and such, but nothing that says it is not legal to possess. If there was a law that prohibited its possession by individuals, it would not be available for our use. There are still small restrictions on the transport of the two compounds that make tannerite, but not like there is once it is mixed.

I'm sure there are some STATES that prohibit its possession, but not in KY. Keep in mind that if it was used to cause damage you could find yourself in serious trouble.

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Well, I suppose you're right on that then, xD Thanks glockster~ <3

flb_78 said:

50lbs a week?

Holy crap! That's a load of cash!

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Oh, it's not that bad, though ya know, I thought we'd both save lots of cash since we quit smoking, but it turns out all the spare money is going to fuel his addiction to making things down range go boom, and my addiction to needing just one more box of ammo xD.

Are you buying tannerite proper? Because it is a whole lot cheaper to buy dark aluminum powder (easy to find online) by the pound and it goes a long ways and 50lbs of potassium nitrate. Potassium nitrate is a common fertilizer, but you have to get "prill" (spelling?) not the modified version. The modified version has too much clay in in for most hobby uses. They keep potassium nitrate available because it is still a better fertilizer.