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Thread: Neighbors guns seized and SN's run

  1. #1
    Regular Member MagiK_SacK's Avatar
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    Neighbors guns seized and SN's run

    We had some police presence in my cul de sac today and I had a question. Now I don't know the exact back story as to what lead up to the land lord calling the cops, what I do know though is that my neighbors(the renters) were moving out, and after their second trip that day the land lord showed up. This is when I came back home from work (the neighbors were gone dropping off a second load. I saw the land lord looking around the property, and force the garage open to get inside. Shortly after that the cops showed up.

    The cop entered the house and not too long after that he came back out with all of the renters guns (about 6K worth) and put them in the trunk of his car. About 15 minutes after that the renters showed back up with their uHual to continue packing up only to be greeted by the cop. He wasn't allowed to enter the property for about 15 minutes so I took that chance to inform him about the guns.

    A little later he came over and explained to me that apparently the land lord called abandonment and that is what got the cops involved. He had gotten all but one gun back because they had to run the s/n's to make sure they weren't stolen. The final gun was an older rifle with a 4 or 5 digit s/n and the cop got a partial hit on a stolen gun so they were told the cops were going to hang on to it until it was cleared up.

    Now that just doesn't sound right to me. Did the cops have the right to seize the guns, and run the s/n's? I expressed my concerns to him, and urged him to look into the legality of it. I gave him one of ed's OC cards and recommended they speak with Dan Hues about it. I figured he would know best.
    .45 ACP - Because shooting twice is silly

    A cop pulled me over and said, "Papers..." So I said "Scissors, I win!" and drove away.

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    Regular Member Uber_Olafsun's Avatar
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    I would wonder more about the landlords abandonment claim. If he is just claiming the apartment was abandoned and was entering property he could be on trouble. Our property has a 24 hour notice before they can come in for routine inspection etc. they tried to do it with less notice and I sent then away and called them on it.

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    Regular Member MagiK_SacK's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Uber_Olafsun View Post
    I would wonder more about the landlords abandonment claim. If he is just claiming the apartment was abandoned and was entering property he could be on trouble. Our property has a 24 hour notice before they can come in for routine inspection etc. they tried to do it with less notice and I sent then away and called them on it.
    He did mention his concern for this, and that he will be looking into that. He said that from leaving after loading his second load, and the time he got back was no more than three hours. The land lord may be the property owner but that does not mean the renters don't have any rights.
    .45 ACP - Because shooting twice is silly

    A cop pulled me over and said, "Papers..." So I said "Scissors, I win!" and drove away.

  4. #4
    Moderator / Administrator Grapeshot's Avatar
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    There are real estate/property laws that must be satisfied before a landlord/property owner/agent may enter leased property. Taking legal possession involves a court order and gives him no claim to the personal property.

    I've been away from that aspect too long to even attempt to cite the law. However IMHO the landlord has committed breaking and entering + possibly grand larceny, the LEO had no PC or RAS to allow him to seize the personal property.

    I would recommend contacting a lawyer ASAP - initial consultations are normally w/o charge.
    You will not rise to the occasion; you will fall back on your level of training. Archilochus, 650 BC

    Old and treacherous will beat young and skilled every time. Yata hey.

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    // If Landlord's right of reentry is exercised following abandonment of the Premises by Tenant, then Landlord shall consider any personal property belonging to Tenant and left on the Premises to also have been abandoned, in which case Landlord may dispose of all such personal property in any manner Landlord shall deem proper and Landlord is hereby relieved of all liability for doing so.//

    http://www.luoffcampus.com/lease.doc

    Just a sample but all the leases i have had contained similar language. Obviously in this case it wasnt abandoned but the landlord will claim as much. Was he delinquient on his rent or have unpaid damages? Im not sure why the landlord would come in such a situation otherwise.

    In this case i would not fault the police the landlord probably called them and sai dhe found abandoned guns. However once the real situation became apparent they should have returned all of them immediately

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    Moderator / Administrator Grapeshot's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by conhntr View Post
    // If Landlord's right of reentry is exercised following abandonment of the Premises by Tenant, then Landlord shall consider any personal property belonging to Tenant and left on the Premises to also have been abandoned, in which case Landlord may dispose of all such personal property in any manner Landlord shall deem proper and Landlord is hereby relieved of all liability for doing so.//

    http://www.luoffcampus.com/lease.doc

    Just a sample but all the leases i have had contained similar language. Obviously in this case it wasnt abandoned but the landlord will claim as much. Was he delinquient on his rent or have unpaid damages? Im not sure why the landlord would come in such a situation otherwise.

    In this case i would not fault the police the landlord probably called them and sai dhe found abandoned guns. However once the real situation became apparent they should have returned all of them immediately
    Your link is definitely not a recommended or approved lease agreement - note spelling errors on it also. This is an example of why some RE companies/agents are considered in the same light as unscrupulous used car salesman. There is no "official" Virginia Rental Agreement.

    This is what the Virginia Tenant Landlord Act says about abandonment:
    http://leg1.state.va.us/cgi-bin/legp...+cod+55-248.33

    You may read or peruse the entire act here.

    There is absolutely no doubt (nada, zip, point zero) in my mind that the landlord violated the law and incurred potential liability thereby nor that the police officers did therefore operate outside their scope.
    You will not rise to the occasion; you will fall back on your level of training. Archilochus, 650 BC

    Old and treacherous will beat young and skilled every time. Yata hey.

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    Regular Member MagiK_SacK's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Grapeshot View Post
    There are real estate/property laws that must be satisfied before a landlord/property owner/agent may enter leased property. Taking legal possession involves a court order and gives him no claim to the personal property.

    I've been away from that aspect too long to even attempt to cite the law. However IMHO the landlord has committed breaking and entering + possibly grand larceny, the LEO had no PC or RAS to allow him to seize the personal property.

    I would recommend contacting a lawyer ASAP - initial consultations are normally w/o charge.
    I think I need to clear this up. The land lord did not seize the guns, the cop did.
    .45 ACP - Because shooting twice is silly

    A cop pulled me over and said, "Papers..." So I said "Scissors, I win!" and drove away.

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    Regular Member MagiK_SacK's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Grapeshot View Post
    Your link is definitely not a recommended or approved lease agreement - note spelling errors on it also. This is an example of why some RE companies/agents are considered in the same light as unscrupulous used car salesman. There is no "official" Virginia Rental Agreement.

    This is what the Virginia Tenant Landlord Act says about abandonment:
    http://leg1.state.va.us/cgi-bin/legp...+cod+55-248.33

    You may read or peruse the entire act here.

    There is absolutely no doubt (nada, zip, point zero) in my mind that the landlord violated the law and incurred potential liability thereby nor that the police officers did therefore operate outside their scope.
    Thanks for the link grape, I'll be sure to pass this along.
    .45 ACP - Because shooting twice is silly

    A cop pulled me over and said, "Papers..." So I said "Scissors, I win!" and drove away.

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    Regular Member wylde007's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by MagiK_SacK View Post
    I think I need to clear this up. The land lord did not seize the guns, the cop did.
    The landlord "forced" the door open and entered the property without notice. The police, without RAS or PC (and certainly without warrant) confiscated private property and subjected it to invasive procedures in direct violation of law.

    The landlord should be sued and the police department should be held in a civil suit for 4th Amendment violations.
    The quiet war has begun, with silent weapons
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    Regular Member wylde007's Avatar
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    Call Dan.
    The quiet war has begun, with silent weapons
    And the newest slavery is to keep the people poor, and stupid
    Novos ordo seclorum ~ Mustaine

    Never argue with an idiot. He will drag you down to his level and beat you with experience.

  11. #11
    Moderator / Administrator Grapeshot's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by wylde007 View Post
    Call Dan.
    http://www.virginialegaldefense.com/
    You will not rise to the occasion; you will fall back on your level of training. Archilochus, 650 BC

    Old and treacherous will beat young and skilled every time. Yata hey.

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    Accomplished Advocate peter nap's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Grapeshot View Post
    +1+1+1

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    Regular Member DocWalker's Avatar
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    Lesson for the day:

    The guns go in the first load to the new place.......

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    Quote Originally Posted by MagiK_SacK View Post
    . Now I don't know the exact back story as to what lead up to the land lord calling the cops, w.
    When you find all the facts regarding this incident, post another thread .. right now, everything is just speculation as to the reasons behind the police actions.

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    I had a similar situation with a property I own, no guns or police involved. My tenant had put up some nice curtains and I wanted take pictures of the exterior of the house. By the way rent was being paid albeit slow at times. I pull up to the house and notice the curtains are gone and no one is at home. I look in several of the windows and see furniture missing. Since I had not heard from my tenant in some time and rent was past due. I entered the property after first knocking and ringing the door bell and calling out for the tenant. The tenant had moved out and was attempting to repair damages they had made in the course of living there.

    I immediately changed the locks and tried to reach the tenant. I reached him at his place of employment the next day. As for the firearms if he had them he would have been in violation of his lease if he had left them open and unsecured. Of course he didn't because my guy had no guns.

    I suspect the property owner was within his rights and I don't understand why he involved the police unless he suspected something else was going on besides someone living in his property. Property owners rights go a very long way.

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    Accomplished Advocate peter nap's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by kenny View Post
    As for the firearms if he had them he would have been in violation of his lease if he had left them open and unsecured. Of course he didn't because my guy had no guns.
    You were doing fine until you got here Kenny!

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    Regular Member vt800c's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by kenny View Post
    Property owners rights go a very long way.
    Woah there KennyBoy, this is WAAAAY wrong. As a landlord, I know my rights pertaining to my own property are SEVERLY curtailed when I rent it out to someone. Even tho I am legally responsibility for the property, the tennant has more rights than I do. (reference 'squatter's rights)

    but as far as firearms go.. based on my experience, a pet does MUCH more damage than a firearm.

    I mean ALOT!!
    I sell ObamaBlades: Single-edged razors you can use to either remove the bumper sticker off your car, or slash your wrists..whichever works best for you.

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    Moderator / Administrator Grapeshot's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by kenny View Post
    --snip--
    I suspect the property owner was within his rights and I don't understand why he involved the police unless he suspected something else was going on besides someone living in his property. Property owners rights go a very long way.
    The property owner exceeded his rights rights under Virginia law - previously cited.

    Also to changing the locks as you suggest is to effectively lock-out the tenant w/o benefit of court order and prevent his making repairs or enjoying any other rights under the lease terms - additionally other liabilities may be incurred by you.

    Please site under what statute or ordinance you may specify how a leasehold tenant may be required to store guns in any fashion. I will wait.
    You will not rise to the occasion; you will fall back on your level of training. Archilochus, 650 BC

    Old and treacherous will beat young and skilled every time. Yata hey.

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    Quote Originally Posted by DocWalker View Post
    Lesson for the day:

    The guns go in the first load to the new place.......
    I had movers .... I asked if any were felons .. one was. So I moved the guns myself...would not want the guns taken as evidence of a felon having access to firearms.

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    Regular Member DocWalker's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by davidmcbeth View Post
    I had movers .... I asked if any were felons .. one was. So I moved the guns myself...would not want the guns taken as evidence of a felon having access to firearms.
    All my guns and important papers always travel with me in my vehicle when moving, good thing I have a 1 ton truck as I have a LOT of firearms......

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    Campaign Veteran skidmark's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by DocWalker View Post
    Lesson for the day:

    The guns go in the first load to the new place.......

    And have a babysitter while additional trips are made. Especially if a) folks in the neighborhood know you have guns b) know/can see you are moving, and especially c) if they know/can see where you are moving to.

    It can be rather obvious when a professional safe-moving company (best $$ ever spent on a move) is rolling down the street and setting up to try and squeeze that thing through the door with only 1/16th inch (total, not each side!) clearance.

    stay safe.
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  22. #22
    Moderator / Administrator Grapeshot's Avatar
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    Yes door openings, stairs, and turn radius can make moving a gun safe difficult. Consider too that a gun safe may overload the design capacity of a floor system.
    You will not rise to the occasion; you will fall back on your level of training. Archilochus, 650 BC

    Old and treacherous will beat young and skilled every time. Yata hey.

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    Regular Member wylde007's Avatar
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    Talking

    Quote Originally Posted by Grapeshot View Post
    Consider too that a gun safe may overload the design capacity of a floor system.
    Why would you purchase or rent a home like this?

    The quiet war has begun, with silent weapons
    And the newest slavery is to keep the people poor, and stupid
    Novos ordo seclorum ~ Mustaine

    Never argue with an idiot. He will drag you down to his level and beat you with experience.

  24. #24
    Moderator / Administrator Grapeshot's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by wylde007 View Post
    Why would you purchase or rent a home like this?

    Because my bunker is not complete.
    You will not rise to the occasion; you will fall back on your level of training. Archilochus, 650 BC

    Old and treacherous will beat young and skilled every time. Yata hey.

  25. #25
    Regular Member Mayhem's Avatar
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    Who is in the wrong?

    Sounds like the landlord could not wait and called the cops. If he told the cops the renters were gone/moved out are the cops wrong for taking possession of the property? Not seeing why they need any RAS or PC to take the guns if the building owner was there. Sounds like someone was getting tricked.

    I would expect the cops to do some kind of report and intentory or whatever. So if the owners did surface they could get them back.
    Last edited by Mayhem; 08-04-2012 at 03:45 PM.

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