Neighbors guns seized and SN's run

We had some police presence in my cul de sac today and I had a question. Now I don't know the exact back story as to what lead up to the land lord calling the cops, what I do know though is that my neighbors(the renters) were moving out, and after their second trip that day the land lord showed up. This is when I came back home from work (the neighbors were gone dropping off a second load. I saw the land lord looking around the property, and force the garage open to get inside. Shortly after that the cops showed up.

The cop entered the house and not too long after that he came back out with all of the renters guns (about 6K worth) and put them in the trunk of his car. About 15 minutes after that the renters showed back up with their uHual to continue packing up only to be greeted by the cop. He wasn't allowed to enter the property for about 15 minutes so I took that chance to inform him about the guns.

A little later he came over and explained to me that apparently the land lord called abandonment and that is what got the cops involved. He had gotten all but one gun back because they had to run the s/n's to make sure they weren't stolen. The final gun was an older rifle with a 4 or 5 digit s/n and the cop got a partial hit on a stolen gun so they were told the cops were going to hang on to it until it was cleared up.

Now that just doesn't sound right to me. Did the cops have the right to seize the guns, and run the s/n's? I expressed my concerns to him, and urged him to look into the legality of it. I gave him one of ed's OC cards and recommended they speak with Dan Hues about it. I figured he would know best.

I would wonder more about the landlords abandonment claim. If he is just claiming the apartment was abandoned and was entering property he could be on trouble. Our property has a 24 hour notice before they can come in for routine inspection etc. they tried to do it with less notice and I sent then away and called them on it.

Uber_Olafsun said:

I would wonder more about the landlords abandonment claim. If he is just claiming the apartment was abandoned and was entering property he could be on trouble. Our property has a 24 hour notice before they can come in for routine inspection etc. they tried to do it with less notice and I sent then away and called them on it.

Click to expand...

He did mention his concern for this, and that he will be looking into that. He said that from leaving after loading his second load, and the time he got back was no more than three hours. The land lord may be the property owner but that does not mean the renters don't have any rights.

There are real estate/property laws that must be satisfied before a landlord/property owner/agent may enter leased property. Taking legal possession involves a court order and gives him no claim to the personal property.

I've been away from that aspect too long to even attempt to cite the law. However IMHO the landlord has committed breaking and entering + possibly grand larceny, the LEO had no PC or RAS to allow him to seize the personal property.

I would recommend contacting a lawyer ASAP - initial consultations are normally w/o charge.

// If Landlord's right of reentry is exercised following abandonment of the Premises by Tenant, then Landlord shall consider any personal property belonging to Tenant and left on the Premises to also have been abandoned, in which case Landlord may dispose of all such personal property in any manner Landlord shall deem proper and Landlord is hereby relieved of all liability for doing so.//

http://www.luoffcampus.com/lease.doc

Just a sample but all the leases i have had contained similar language. Obviously in this case it wasnt abandoned but the landlord will claim as much. Was he delinquient on his rent or have unpaid damages? Im not sure why the landlord would come in such a situation otherwise.

In this case i would not fault the police the landlord probably called them and sai dhe found abandoned guns. However once the real situation became apparent they should have returned all of them immediately

conhntr said:

// If Landlord's right of reentry is exercised following abandonment of the Premises by Tenant, then Landlord shall consider any personal property belonging to Tenant and left on the Premises to also have been abandoned, in which case Landlord may dispose of all such personal property in any manner Landlord shall deem proper and Landlord is hereby relieved of all liability for doing so.//

http://www.luoffcampus.com/lease.doc

Just a sample but all the leases i have had contained similar language. Obviously in this case it wasnt abandoned but the landlord will claim as much. Was he delinquient on his rent or have unpaid damages? Im not sure why the landlord would come in such a situation otherwise.

In this case i would not fault the police the landlord probably called them and sai dhe found abandoned guns. However once the real situation became apparent they should have returned all of them immediately

Click to expand...

Your link is definitely not a recommended or approved lease agreement - note spelling errors on it also. This is an example of why some RE companies/agents are considered in the same light as unscrupulous used car salesman. There is no "official" Virginia Rental Agreement.

This is what the Virginia Tenant Landlord Act says about abandonment:
http://leg1.state.va.us/cgi-bin/legp504.exe?000+cod+55-248.33

You may read or peruse the entire act here.

There is absolutely no doubt (nada, zip, point zero) in my mind that the landlord violated the law and incurred potential liability thereby nor that the police officers did therefore operate outside their scope.

Grapeshot said:

There are real estate/property laws that must be satisfied before a landlord/property owner/agent may enter leased property. Taking legal possession involves a court order and gives him no claim to the personal property.

I've been away from that aspect too long to even attempt to cite the law. However IMHO the landlord has committed breaking and entering + possibly grand larceny, the LEO had no PC or RAS to allow him to seize the personal property.

I would recommend contacting a lawyer ASAP - initial consultations are normally w/o charge.

Click to expand...

I think I need to clear this up. The land lord did not seize the guns, the cop did.

Grapeshot said:

Your link is definitely not a recommended or approved lease agreement - note spelling errors on it also. This is an example of why some RE companies/agents are considered in the same light as unscrupulous used car salesman. There is no "official" Virginia Rental Agreement.

This is what the Virginia Tenant Landlord Act says about abandonment:
http://leg1.state.va.us/cgi-bin/legp504.exe?000+cod+55-248.33

You may read or peruse the entire act here.

There is absolutely no doubt (nada, zip, point zero) in my mind that the landlord violated the law and incurred potential liability thereby nor that the police officers did therefore operate outside their scope.

Click to expand...

Thanks for the link grape, I'll be sure to pass this along.

MagiK_SacK said:

I think I need to clear this up. The land lord did not seize the guns, the cop did.

Click to expand...

The landlord "forced" the door open and entered the property without notice. The police, without RAS or PC (and certainly without warrant) confiscated private property and subjected it to invasive procedures in direct violation of law.

The landlord should be sued and the police department should be held in a civil suit for 4th Amendment violations.

Call Dan.

wylde007 said:

Call Dan.

Click to expand...

http://www.virginialegaldefense.com/

Grapeshot said:

http://www.virginialegaldefense.com/

Click to expand...

+1+1+1

Lesson for the day:

The guns go in the first load to the new place.......

MagiK_SacK said:

. Now I don't know the exact back story as to what lead up to the land lord calling the cops, w.

Click to expand...

When you find all the facts regarding this incident, post another thread .. right now, everything is just speculation as to the reasons behind the police actions.

I had a similar situation with a property I own, no guns or police involved. My tenant had put up some nice curtains and I wanted take pictures of the exterior of the house. By the way rent was being paid albeit slow at times. I pull up to the house and notice the curtains are gone and no one is at home. I look in several of the windows and see furniture missing. Since I had not heard from my tenant in some time and rent was past due. I entered the property after first knocking and ringing the door bell and calling out for the tenant. The tenant had moved out and was attempting to repair damages they had made in the course of living there.

I immediately changed the locks and tried to reach the tenant. I reached him at his place of employment the next day. As for the firearms if he had them he would have been in violation of his lease if he had left them open and unsecured. Of course he didn't because my guy had no guns.

I suspect the property owner was within his rights and I don't understand why he involved the police unless he suspected something else was going on besides someone living in his property. Property owners rights go a very long way.

kenny said:

As for the firearms if he had them he would have been in violation of his lease if he had left them open and unsecured. Of course he didn't because my guy had no guns.

Click to expand...

You were doing fine until you got here Kenny!:banghead:

kenny said:

Property owners rights go a very long way.

Click to expand...

Woah there KennyBoy, this is WAAAAY wrong. As a landlord, I know my rights pertaining to my own property are SEVERLY curtailed when I rent it out to someone. Even tho I am legally responsibility for the property, the tennant has more rights than I do. (reference 'squatter's rights)

but as far as firearms go.. based on my experience, a pet does MUCH more damage than a firearm.

I mean ALOT!!

kenny said:

--snip--
I suspect the property owner was within his rights and I don't understand why he involved the police unless he suspected something else was going on besides someone living in his property. Property owners rights go a very long way.

Click to expand...

The property owner exceeded his rights rights under Virginia law - previously cited.

Also to changing the locks as you suggest is to effectively lock-out the tenant w/o benefit of court order and prevent his making repairs or enjoying any other rights under the lease terms - additionally other liabilities may be incurred by you.

Please site under what statute or ordinance you may specify how a leasehold tenant may be required to store guns in any fashion. I will wait.

DocWalker said:

Lesson for the day:

The guns go in the first load to the new place.......

Click to expand...

I had movers .... I asked if any were felons .. one was. So I moved the guns myself...would not want the guns taken as evidence of a felon having access to firearms.

davidmcbeth said:

I had movers .... I asked if any were felons .. one was. So I moved the guns myself...would not want the guns taken as evidence of a felon having access to firearms.

Click to expand...

All my guns and important papers always travel with me in my vehicle when moving, good thing I have a 1 ton truck as I have a LOT of firearms......