Neighbors guns seized and SN's run

DocWalker said:

Lesson for the day:

The guns go in the first load to the new place.......

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And have a babysitter while additional trips are made. Especially if a) folks in the neighborhood know you have guns b) know/can see you are moving, and especially c) if they know/can see where you are moving to.

It can be rather obvious when a professional safe-moving company (best $$ ever spent on a move) is rolling down the street and setting up to try and squeeze that thing through the door with only 1/16th inch (total, not each side!) clearance.

stay safe.

Yes door openings, stairs, and turn radius can make moving a gun safe difficult. Consider too that a gun safe may overload the design capacity of a floor system.

Grapeshot said:

Consider too that a gun safe may overload the design capacity of a floor system.

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Why would you purchase or rent a home like this?

:lol:

wylde007 said:

Why would you purchase or rent a home like this?

:lol:

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Because my bunker is not complete. :uhoh:

Who is in the wrong?

Sounds like the landlord could not wait and called the cops. If he told the cops the renters were gone/moved out are the cops wrong for taking possession of the property? Not seeing why they need any RAS or PC to take the guns if the building owner was there. Sounds like someone was getting tricked.

I would expect the cops to do some kind of report and intentory or whatever. So if the owners did surface they could get them back.

Mayhem said:

Sounds like the landlord could not wait and called the cops. If he told the cops the renters were gone are the cops wrong for taking possession of the property? Not seeing why they need any RAS or PC to take the guns if the property owner was there. Sounds like someone was getting tricked.

I would expect the cops to do some kind of report and intentory or whatever. So if the owners did surface they could get them back.

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If I told you someone was gone and you took possession of their property w/o their permission, would it be wrong?

The owner of the personal property was not there, did not give his permission.

Advance notice: There may be a pop quiz tomorrow.

Grapeshot said:

If I told you someone was gone and you took possession of their property w/o their permission, would it be wrong?

The owner of the personal property was not there, did not give his permission.

Advance notice: There may be a pop quiz tomorrow.

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It all depends on how long the owner had been gone. With a renter, if they are more than one rent period overdue and visual indications are they have removed all/most of their belongings I might call the cops to perform a community caretaking function of securing abandoned personal property. But more liklely I would put the stuff into some form of storage along with a notice posted and mailed to the tenant's last known address (yeah, I know) so my backside would be covered if any complaint of theft were ever brought. Then I'd get a court order to sell the abandoned stuff in an attempt to recover moving and storage costs.

In other words, following the letter if not the spirit of the law will keep my backside out of trouble.

OTOH, if the owner was merely not present (on vacation, in the hospital, rotting in jail, but making sure the rent was paid) then touching his stuff is some varient of theft, along with some sort varient of B&E to get in there to touch it.

More importantly - say the tenant had several months left on their lease and was making regular rent (and utility) payments via some variation of electronic bill paying but all their personal property was removed. What would you do? (Bonus points towards your own personal internets if you can properly name the program you are supposed to use to base your decision.)

stay safe.

skidmark said:

--snip--
More importantly - say the tenant had several months left on their lease and was making regular rent (and utility) payments via some variation of electronic bill paying but all their personal property was removed. What would you do? (Bonus points towards your own personal internets if you can properly name the program you are supposed to use to base your decision.)

stay safe.

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The lease document itself.

DocWalker said:

Lesson for the day:

The guns go in the first load to the new place.......

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I'll second that (unrelated). There was a hurricane headed into my brothers area of south Texas a couple years ago and he was on a business trip 4 states away. He told his wife (during evacuation), first thing you get is all the guns and if anything else fits into the truck, take it

Grapeshot said:

The lease document itself.

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Sorry, no internets for you.

"If you see something, Say something."

Brought to you by the friendly folks in the jackboots over at Homeland Security.:uhoh:

stay safe.

Grapeshot said:

The property owner exceeded his rights rights under Virginia law - previously cited.

Also to changing the locks as you suggest is to effectively lock-out the tenant w/o benefit of court order and prevent his making repairs or enjoying any other rights under the lease terms - additionally other liabilities may be incurred by you.

Please site under what statute or ordinance you may specify how a leasehold tenant may be required to store guns in any fashion. I will wait.

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Tenant signed a lease that he agreed to the rules. House was empty except for a new hallway door and some mud. Lease stated tenant was to do no repair or modification without prior consent of property owner. It's my property so that makes it my rules, which were all signed and agreed to by both tenants (husband & wife).

Grapeshot said:

The property owner exceeded his rights rights under Virginia law - previously cited.

Also to changing the locks as you suggest is to effectively lock-out the tenant w/o benefit of court order and prevent his making repairs or enjoying any other rights under the lease terms - additionally other liabilities may be incurred by you.

Please site under what statute or ordinance you may specify how a leasehold tenant may be required to store guns in any fashion. I will wait.

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kenny said:

Tenant signed a lease that he agreed to the rules. House was empty except for a new hallway door and some mud. Lease stated tenant was to do no repair or modification without prior consent of property owner. It's my property so that makes it my rules, which were all signed and agreed to by both tenants (husband & wife).

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Kenny, you're changing and modifying the facts as you go along + ignoring some questions.

So I'll reduce it to the basics - you may not legally (except in an emergency or by giving proper notice) enter or take constructive possession (changing the locks) without going through the proper legal procedures.

It may be your property, but not entirely your rules - there is the rule of law - yes? That and neither signing nor agreeing necessarily waives all rights of tenants.

kenny said:

Tenant signed a lease that he agreed to the rules. House was empty except for a new hallway door and some mud. Lease stated tenant was to do no repair or modification without prior consent of property owner. It's my property so that makes it my rules, which were all signed and agreed to by both tenants (husband & wife).

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So the tenant violated the conditions of the lease? Last I looked there were ways to deal with that which all involved going to court and asking for liquidated damages.

I agree that as landlord you would be fairly safe with "It's my property so that makes it my rules." But there are some rules that you just cannot impose without running afoul of the Landlord-Tenant Act, as well as some other actions that seem to everyone else to be clear violations of criminal law.

All your contributions smack of jackbooted thuggery carried out by a person so wrapped up in "protecting" what is yours that you cannot see how those actions are inherently wrong. There's no use in trying to explain this any further - you seem to be bound and determined to ignore what is being said to you.

I do wonder how you can claim to be a supporter of RKBA when you are so willing to trample other rights.

stay safe.

Grapeshot said:

I've been away from that aspect too long to even attempt to cite the law. However IMHO the landlord has committed breaking and entering + possibly grand larceny, the LEO had no PC or RAS to allow him to seize the personal property.

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It sounds as if the police officer was acting on incorrect information that the property was abandoned. He's going to be in the clear.

I started to say "false report", but we don't know that. If the rent was overdue (we don't know this), and the house was partially vacated (we do know this), the landlord may have acted in good faith.

I doubt it, but without evidence otherwise, I'll allow him the benefit of the doubt.

KBCraig said:

It sounds as if the police officer was acting on incorrect information that the property was abandoned. He's

going to be in the clear. [highlight]The police officer had no cause for action - no laws broken.[/highlight]

I started to say "false report", but we don't know that. If the rent was overdue (we don't know this), and the

house was partially vacated (we do know this), [highlight]no we don't - it is alleged[/highlight] the landlord may have acted in

good faith. [highlight]Not so, he entered illegally. He did not legally regain possession of the property.[/highlight]

I doubt it, but without evidence otherwise, I'll allow him the benefit of the doubt.

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There is no doubt but that he entered [highlight]w/o[/highlight] legal right.

You may familiarize yourself with some of Virginia's real estate laws following:
https://www.arlingtonva.us/departme...fo/CPHDHousingHousing_infoTenantLandlord.aspx

DocWalker said:

Lesson for the day:

The guns go in the first load to the new place.......

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+1. I just moved out of some rental property and the first thing out was my guns. Your neighbor needs to get a lawyer.

Grapeshot said:

Kenny, you're changing and modifying the facts as you go along + ignoring some questions.

So I'll reduce it to the basics - you may not legally (except in an emergency or by giving proper notice) enter or take constructive possession (changing the locks) without going through the proper legal procedures.

It may be your property, but not entirely your rules - there is the rule of law - yes? That and neither signing nor agreeing necessarily waives all rights of tenants.

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You were not there so the only facts you know are the ones I shared. Perhaps you should go to law school with some of the other "knowledgeable" members here. As has been said many times on this forum, if there is no law against it, you are good to go. I was entirely within my right to secure what appeared to be my abandoned property and that came directly from someone licensed by the Virginia State Bar. Yes I do have the right to require that unattended firearms be secured in and on my property. Show me where I can't require that and that I do not have the right to secure my abandon property. Better yet my tenants don't have a problem with it so why should you?

Mayhem said:

If (the landlord) told the cops the renters were gone/moved out, are the cops wrong for taking possession of the property?

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Nope. They have every right in the world to take possession of the firearms based upon what they were told.

skidmark said:

So the tenant violated the conditions of the lease? Last I looked there were ways to deal with that which all involved going to court and asking for liquidated damages.

I agree that as landlord you would be fairly safe with "It's my property so that makes it my rules." But there are some rules that you just cannot impose without running afoul of the Landlord-Tenant Act, as well as some other actions that seem to everyone else to be clear violations of criminal law.

All your contributions smack of jackbooted thuggery carried out by a person so wrapped up in "protecting" what is yours that you cannot see how those actions are inherently wrong. There's no use in trying to explain this any further - you seem to be bound and determined to ignore what is being said to you.

I do wonder how you can claim to be a supporter of RKBA when you are so willing to trample other rights.

stay safe.

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Facts: Tenants removed all of their property with rent due. Their lease was about up, except they had not notified in writing as required by lease 60 in advance of their departure. They had no authority to repair or otherwise improve my property without written consent. I would never take legal advice from anyone without a contractual relationship and never, if the person giving the advice was some unknown faceless person who does not use their real name or is a want to be lawyer. Some me where the law gives you or anyone the right to not pay their rent when it is due or a law that gives them the right not to follow what they signed and agreed to at the beginning of our business relationship? People on this forum who are not practicing attorneys should refrain from offering legal advice. Now if you have a Personal and Similar experience, I will be happy to listen to your experience, as you have listened to mine.

An you post a copy of your lease agreement with names removed? My lease has things spelled out such as if your payment is late it has to be made with a certified means such as bank check etc. it also defines how long it can be late before notice of eviction can be posted. If I do not give 60 days my lease is not up immediately but automatically goes to the current month to month rate.