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Thread: Gun Show

  1. #1
    Regular Member CSINEV's Avatar
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    Gun Show

    Does anyone know if the Rocky Mountain Gun Show at Cashman Field in Las Vegas is open carry friendly?

    I wanted to take the kids out there today but not sure of their rules, anyone got a quick answer?
    Last edited by CSINEV; 08-05-2012 at 11:54 AM.
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    IIRC that place has gunbuster signs, but I can't say for sure.

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    Campaign Veteran MAC702's Avatar
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    You can open carry, but they will have police there to illegally search you and run your serial number to verify registration. It also must be unloaded.
    "It's not important how many people I've killed. What's important is how I get along with the people who are still alive" - Jimmy the Tulip

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    Quote Originally Posted by MAC702 View Post
    You can open carry, but they will have police there to illegally search you and run your serial number to verify registration. It also must be unloaded.
    Its too late this time for me, but we need to go as a few and video them trying this. And the response when we decide not to let them perform the search. If 2 or 3 of us want to go and we actually can get in, I will pay the entrance fee for us.

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    Campaign Veteran MAC702's Avatar
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    Here's another idea. Let's all spend the night in Pahrump. Then, we tell them we just drove in from Pahrump, as there is no handgun registration there. Of course, we aren't carrying ID's, neither.

    Of course, that doesn't accomplish quite the same thing, since the search is illegal for Clark residents also, and that's what we want to show them.
    "It's not important how many people I've killed. What's important is how I get along with the people who are still alive" - Jimmy the Tulip

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    I am heading down in a little while, and fully planned on being lawfully civilly disobedient.
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    Campaign Veteran MAC702's Avatar
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    PLEASE be recording. I know you will be hassled. I'm sorry I can't go with you today.

    Please also take note of the exact signage on the building.
    Last edited by MAC702; 08-05-2012 at 03:39 PM.
    "It's not important how many people I've killed. What's important is how I get along with the people who are still alive" - Jimmy the Tulip

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    Regular Member CSINEV's Avatar
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    I went and they checked my gun at the door to see if it was unloaded and put a zip tie through the muzzle. I said, "So your not open carry friendly?" The off duty Metro officer response, "yes we are, you just can't be loaded." I replied, "that pretty much makes it a large rock at that point don't ya think?" His partner pipes up and says, "well you see this is a public building and you can't carry in a public building." I said, "well according to Nevada state law you can." The other guy said, "well this is a private show and we can reserve the right to refuse service to anyone." I said, " I thought you said this was a public building? Now your saying its a private show. Which is it?" I went on, "Look I'm here for the first time with my kids to look around and enjoy the show I had no idea you were not an open carry supporter and I find that funny because its a gun show. But whatever, We'll just go in and have a good time and later I will do my best to let the Nevada community know you are anti-carry." The first guy, now pissed off says, "Well you can try and come in here loaded and we will arrest you." I asked, "on what charge? Can you site the NRS right now or would it just be trespassing in which case you would have to prove I was here to harass or vex the owners of the property which you might have a hard time getting the DA to believe when I'm here with my 10 year old son and my 12 year old daughter. We really look like a gang of thugs don't you think?" Both guys just looked at each other speechless for a few moments and said, "Never mind please just go in and have a nice day."

    It was a nice show but I am really disappointed at the policy. Oh and by the way there were three people in there running for state offices' and Danny Tarkanian had a booth also. huh go figure.
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    Campaign Veteran MAC702's Avatar
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    I've always wanted to know if the police officers doing the registration checks were on-duty (in which case, the private event argument loses a lot of ground) or hired for the event during their off-duty times (which probably makes the registration check even MORE illegal.)

    The last time I went was a few years ago. The officers were not in uniform, but were using a police-issued laptop to run the checks.
    "It's not important how many people I've killed. What's important is how I get along with the people who are still alive" - Jimmy the Tulip

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    Regular Member CSINEV's Avatar
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    I have retired Metro in my family, so I can say this with certainty. The were off-duty Merto police officers, meaning not part of their normal patrol or duties. The event pays Metro directly to have officers at their show and they are paid overtime rates by Metro to be there. This is a very common thing for large private events, Metro has a list of events that the officers can sign up for to get paid overtime if they choose. Which means they can use any and all equipment available to them while they are normally on duty they can also be in uniform or plain clothes. In patrol cars, on horse back, on bikes, or on foot. This is what I like to call a true Rent-a-cop lmao
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    Did they run the numbers on the gun?

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    I went to it (Crossroads at Cashman on Sat.) I thought it was funny that they are so paranoid about firearms, but there were 8-10" knives everywhere.

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    Campaign Veteran MAC702's Avatar
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    What would they do if getting to the serial number required special tools and a gunsmithing vise? I'd like to find out.
    "It's not important how many people I've killed. What's important is how I get along with the people who are still alive" - Jimmy the Tulip

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    Regular Member Fallschirmjäger's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by MAC702 View Post
    What would they do if getting to the serial number required special tools and a gunsmithing vise? I'd like to find out.
    Even better, what would they do with a lawfully homemade firearm that didn't even HAVE a serial number?

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    Campaign Veteran MAC702's Avatar
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    Well, they are only checking handguns for registration. So how do they register a homemade handgun? I'm sure there is some kind of official procedure. Perhaps they require you to give it a "serial number?"

    This is a good question. I've got a 4" barrel scrap from chopping my Mini-14. I've been thinking of reaming a .22 Long Rifle chamber and making something, just because I can. When done, I'll register it and see how it goes.
    "It's not important how many people I've killed. What's important is how I get along with the people who are still alive" - Jimmy the Tulip

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    Quote Originally Posted by MAC702 View Post
    Well, they are only checking handguns for registration. So how do they register a homemade handgun? I'm sure there is some kind of official procedure. Perhaps they require you to give it a "serial number?"

    This is a good question. I've got a 4" barrel scrap from chopping my Mini-14. I've been thinking of reaming a .22 Long Rifle chamber and making something, just because I can. When done, I'll register it and see how it goes.
    I have been to past shows; same thing had to have the firearm unloaded and checked. I am fairly sure they did not check the SR# and cannot remember if the asked if it was registered. I was carrying a firearm I purchased some years ago in Las Vegas not knowing any better at the time I did not stop them from doing the Clark County registration as I live in Nye County so it they did ask I had it. I carry a farily new 5.25” 40XDM now and do not have a blue card for it. I would like to think they would be up on the law and not ask once they see I am not a Clark County residence.
    On a side note as I walked in they asked if it was loaded and I said of course they told me to go to my car and unload it. I did not tell them however, I was on a motorcycle. I did not think it was a good idea clearing a firearm in the middle of a parking lot. Ended up finding a block wall corner to face into to clear it. I have not been back to another gun show since.

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    Below is a report from someone who was there. I make no claims of being this person, just posting the report. I don't guarantee the validity of the following report. I wouldn't give it any credibility beyond hearsay. It is entirely likely to be wrong, inaccurate, or missing pertinent details. Of course, it could be an incredibly accurate transcription of events that transpired, or it could be a complete work of fiction. I guess what I am saying here is that this information is completely useless to anyone in a court of law. A responsible OC'er would have video, but in a case like this, probably would not choose to make it public until consulting an attorney. If you have a suggestion of an attorney that might be interested in this case, PM me.



    I was there with my 10yr old son from about 15:00-16:00, and I was a little less compliant than previous posts. I purchased a ticket for $13 (note that), and entered the building. There was permanent signage indicating "No FIrearms" in the building, not compliant with NRS 202.3673, and certainly not being enforced (it's a gun show!). There was also temporary handwritten signs indicating no loaded firearms, again, not compliant.

    I entered, and my ticket was taken. I pass through the turnstile, and started to make my way into the show. I was flagged down by the man at the "gun check" table, and he asked me to check my gun. I politely declined, "No thank you" with a smile, and turned to be on my way. The guy instructs me to come to him immediately. He was clearly metro, but in plainclothes.

    I asked if he was giving me a lawful order. He ignored the question and asked if I had my ID on me. I ignored the question, as I had no obligation to answer. I repeated my question "Are you giving me a lawful order?". At this point, he stands up to get his badge out. He shows it to me. he is now a cop, on-duty or off doesn't matter. He has identified as LEO. I said "Excellent!", and politely requested his P#. He refused, and said "Can I see your ID first please?". I repeated my question, ignoring his. He stated "5256". I asked "And your name?". He ignored my question, and again asked for my ID.

    ME: Am I being detained?

    5256: No, you're not being detained. This is a city building, and it's a private show within a city building. The private show requires you to check your gun in, to make sure it's cleared. So if you're not willing to check your gun in to make sure it's cleared, then you can leave.

    ME: Are you giving me a lawful order?

    5256: Sir, I'm asking you to check your gun in. If you don't want to check your gun in, you can leave. Are you trying to provoke something?

    ME: Of course not. I would never do that.

    5256: Absolutely, that's exactly what you are trying to do. That's why you had to get your little phone out, and record everything...come on.

    ME: Well, that's logical. Of course I'm going to cover myself, you would.

    5256: No. I'm confident in who I am, and whats going on.

    ME: It IS a city building, you're right.

    5256: Are you gonna check your gun or not?

    ME: I don't intend to, no.

    5256: Then you can leave. (:oints to the exit:

    ME: Are you an authorized representative of the tenant?

    5256: Are you going to leave sir, or not?

    ME: Are you giving me a lawful order? As a police officer, since you've shown me your badge, Are you giving me a lawful order?

    5256: I'm trying to tell you who I am. Because I am not dressed like a police officer. I'm serving a function here. (::indicating to the gun check table:

    ME: I understand, I appreciate that. Well, since you've shown me your badge, you are representing the police department, correct?

    5256: I am representing the rules...

    ME: Are you on-duty, or off?

    With a very annoyed facial expression, he begins to circle around behind me, as if to try to corral me to the door. All this time, his partner, who will be introduced later, has been on the phone, and occasionally interjecting a word or two, but nothing significant yet.

    5256: I am on-duty.

    ME: You are on-duty? (no response, so I repeat)

    5256: I am on-duty.

    ME: Ok, so are you giving me a lawful order to leave the building?

    5256: We're going to wait for the convention people.

    ME: So you are not, at this time, giving me a lawful order to leave, is that correct?

    (He doesn't answer, and just gives me a raised-eyebrows-how-does-it-feel expression)

    ME: Ok! Am I being detained, or am I free to go?

    I should interject here that while he did tell me earlier that I was not being detained, he also impeded my further entrance to the show. Cop-blocked, as it were. So, I took his physical presence in my immediate path as detention.

    5256: No, you're not free to go yet.

    ME: I am being detained then? Am I correct?

    He mutters something, but doesn't really respond initially, then he steps in closer to me, and starts to grab me by the right arm (strong side). His touch was delicate, like a flower, almost a carress, if you will. And he really had a nice beard too. Very manly.

    Wait, where was I? Oh, right. SO he makes physical contact with me arm/shoulder area, and begins to direct me to the exit, and says..

    5256: Come on, let's go talk outside.

    ME: Please don't place your hands on me.

    5256: Come on, let's go talk outside.

    ME: Uhh, this is MY City of Las Vegas public building, and I prefer not to, and I have paid for access to this event.

    5256: But you also paid to uhh...also abide by the rules. Is that correct?

    ME: Uhh, I haven't signed any contracts, no.

    ::Long Pause::

    I believe the word to use here is "fuming". At this point, he is about 12 inches from me, up very close in my face, a real testiment to his tenacity, after my onion/garlic lunch.

    ME: I feel that my personal space is being infringed, would you please take 3 steps back?

    He takes about a half-step laterally.

    ME: A little further.

    At this point, I realize he has managed to step in between me and my son, a good indication that he may be getting ready to do something physical. I instruct my son to come back to my side.

    Worth mentioning, my son might have been doing his best to record this event as well. 2A activist in training. Good boy.

    5256 is still only about 2 feet from me, so I am still feeling physically impeded. He has managed to circle me, so his partner is behind me now. Show of force, color of law comes to mind.

    ME: Am I being detained, or am I free to go?

    5256: We are going to wait for the convention people to come talk to you.

    ME: That is not a question you can avoid under any circumstances. Am I being detained, or am I free to go?

    5256: You are being detained. Yes.

    ME: Do you have Reasonable Articulable Suspicion that I have committed a crime, or am about to?

    5256: No. We want someone to come explain the rules to you. The rules are..the guns have to be checked. If you're not willing to check the guns, then you have to leave. If you're not willing to leave, then we are going to bring someone who is a representative of the city building of your City of Las Vegas building that you keep referring to, to come talk to you.

    ME: Id like...if they'd bring a printed copy...(of their event permit)

    5256: So, you're not being detained, as per se.. but you're not allowed into the show until you abide by the rules. So if you want to leave the building, you are more than welcome to leave the building.

    (He's still blocking my path, so despite his words, I am being detained from my intended lawful direction of travel.)

    ME: Ok, so I am not being detained by you then?

    5256: Ok, now that you know who I...who I am, can you tell me who you are?

    ME: That won't happen.

    (He has already been given the opportunity to indicate any RAS, and has stated I am free to go, thus no Hiibel)

    5256: That won't happen?

    ME: You are barking up the wrong tree.

    5256: Barking up the wrong tree...

    (he smirks, and then looks to the camera, as if remembering that he was being recorded)

    ME: So I am not being detained by you, is that correct?

    5256: You can leave the building if you'd like, but you can't go into the show.

    ME: If you are politely requesting that I wait for the presence of the conventioneer, I will do so.

    (his partner has circled me again, show of force)

    5256: Sir, I am not going to keep reiterating things the way you want them said, for the little game that you're playing.

    ME: It is necessary that you answer certain questions...you've already denied that I am being detained.

    5256: It is also necessary for you to cooperate.

    ME: Actually, it's not. Not at all. Not even a little bit.

    5256: No? Ok..

    ME: As long as I am within my rights, which I am, and you know that I am...that's why you haven't arrested me.

    5256: Are you going to leave?

    ME: Not at this time.

    5256: So then you're going to stay here?

    ME: I will. But not, under detention?

    Partner chimes in while 5256 circles behind me...

    6475: Loaded firearms are not permitted in a City of Las Vegas Building.

    ME: Really?

    6475: Right.

    ME: Who are you?

    6475: I am detective Worthen(sp?) with Las Vegas Metro Police.

    ME: Excellent! What is your P#?

    6475: 6475.

    ME: Which statute is that that does not allow me to open carry a firearm in a public building?

    6475: They'll show you, a _loaded_ firearm.

    ME: They'll show me? Who will?

    6475: You'll see, they'll be here in a second.

    ME: I can tell you, if you'd like? (which statute)

    6475: Yeah, what's the statute?

    ME: 202.3673 - No _concealed_ firearms in a public building.

    6475 shakes his head in disagreement.

    ME: _Concealed_ firearms.

    6475: Give me one second. (walks around behind me, but 5256 is now on my 2 o'clock, and again, about 18 inches from me, impeding my further entry into the building. Detained by obstruction.)

    (this is about the 5-minute mark)

    Me: (to my boy) do you have your phone on? Good.

    About 45 seconds later, LVCVA security shows up.

    ME: Hi!

    XXXX: How are you sir?

    ME: Are you the gentleman I'm waiting for?

    XXXX: Yes sir..

    ME: Excellent! What's your name?

    Wesley: My name is Officer Wesley.

    Let me interject here that Ofc. Wesley was EXTREMELY friendly and respectful. I can't say that enough. While he makes some mistakes with regard to the law later, he doesn't use any of the bullying tactics that everyone else used. He is the kind of guy that I would've invited to go have a beer later.

    ME: Hi officer Wesley, are you with Metro, or are you private?

    Wesley: I am actually a Convention Authority Officer. So I...

    ME: So, sort of Metro, but specific to this property? Ok great. Does that mean oyu have a P#?

    Wesley: I have a P#, but it's not gonna be like Metro's.

    ME: Ok, just something to identify you besides your name?

    Wesley: You can use my call sign, I am Baker13.

    ME: Baker 13, excellent.

    Wesley: I am the only one of my kind. (smiles)

    ME: Excellent! So, this gentleman, detective (referring to 6475), that it is unlawful to carry an open firearm, a visible firearm in a public building?

    Wesley nods.

    ME: That is inaccurate, I know that to be inaccurate. 202.3673 says no _concealed_ firearms in a public building. That's why I didn't conceal today.

    Wesley: Ok..

    ME: Since I am not concealed, and no one...

    ( I looke around for any volunteers)

    ME: ...no one has any reasonable articulable suspicion that I've committed or am about to commit a crime, any detention is...unacceptable.

    Wesley: Ok..

    ME: Do you have any questions for me..? (or can I go about my business?)

    Wesley: Well, I'm not here to detain..

    ME: This gentleman (referring to 5256) did...we've established that I'm not _being detained_. I've willingly waited for you to arrive so that we could settle it, and I could go about...finish the show before it closes up.

    Wesley: Ok, umm, they (indicating the Metro cops) require you to check-in your firearm before you do that..

    ME: They do? (confirming he was referring to Metro)

    Wesley: The representatives here..

    ME: Are you referring to the detective here?

    Wesley: Yes.

    ME: He doesn't have the authority to require me to check my firearm.

    Wesley: Well, that's a condition to get into the show...

    ME: It's not...because..this is a public building. If they had had it on private property, that would be the case, they would be able to trespass me from the property... But because it's MY building, they can't actually do that. They can choose to not sell me a ticket, I suppose, but they did sell me a ticket. And I decline to refund it.

    Wesley: I mean, just out of curiosity, why won't you..just have your weapon cleared, and just come in. I mean, no one here is armed...

    ME: I'm not obligated to, and I think that's enough of a reason.

    Wesley kind of smirks and nods. He is amused.

    ME: I'm polite, and I am glad y'all are here to keep us safe..and I apprecaite it. And.. I'm not the problem.

    Wesley: Ok..

    (8:00 minute mark)

    ME: The bad guys are the ones that come in with it in their underwear. Not me.

    (Wesley, apparently waiting for the arrival of his supervisor, because he has nothing else, and clearly wants nothing to do with this one..)

    Wesley: Ok, pretty soon, we'll get to the bottom of this.

    Moments later...

    Wesley: This is MY supervisor..

    (Lookout, it's Helen Wheels!)

    ME: Ok. Excellent! Hi there!

    XXXX: Aaaiight, so what's da problem?

    ME: Sgt. Thomas, do you have an ID# or call sign or something?

    Thomas: Sgt. Thomas.

    ME: I mean, I see your badge, just something other than your name. For them (metro) I would ask for a P#, I don't know what it is in your...organization.

    Thomas: Sgt. Thomas.

    ME: Ok, Sgt. Thomas, Sgt. Diana Thomas. Excellent. Uhh, ok, so, I've pretty much already laid out everything for this gentleman (indicating Wesley). Did you have any questions for me?

    Thomas: No, I'm uhh... here to follow up on what's going on. I mean are you (looking to Wesley) satisfied with what's going on..? 'Cause I know there's rules, where any firearm does not leave this show without being inspected by Metro. That's the only way these people are allowed to have their show here.

    ME: ...is if they get to inspect it on the way out?

    Thomas: Exactly. That's, that's procedure.

    ME: That's interesting..

    Thomas: 'Cause I'm gonna follow up on it, because I know there is a statute on it, and I have it in the office. I didn't know this was the nature...I was brought in...but uhh, customers like you...continue to put on this kind of...uhh uhhh, stance..they'll (the conventioneer) lose their uhh, business here. (very smug, and quite satisfied with herself)

    ME: Hmm, ok.

    Thomas: Those are the rules, and we will not welcome them back again. And they'v ebeen coming here, coming here, for a long time.

    ME: So your affirmation is that my firearm must be inspected upon my departure, is that correct?

    Thomas: That is the procedure...Anyone brings a firearm....that's why we have these (indicating metro)...If that wasnt the case, we wouldnt have the Metro here..'cause you could just walk on out the door..

    (still with the same majestic smug grin....about to end in....3....2....)

    ME: Ok...uhh, Sgt. Thomas, I suppose we can address that when I'm departing........I'm entering now.

    (I would have stopped her sooner, but you can't get a word in edgewise with her)

    Thomas: Ok, ohh, ok, oh, you're bringing IN a firearm? Oh, well it has to be inspected anyway.

    ME: Under what statute?

    Thomas: Technically, this is a county facility..and we do not allow firearms on our property...

    (ahem...Gun show?)

    (worthy of note, she was actually right, the property owner is listed as "County of Clark(LV Conv Auth)", not that it matters)

    Thomas: ....with the exception of a licensed gun instr...gun...

    ME: Under what statute?

    (She starts to get quite animated)

    Thomas: No, that's my, LVCVA statute. I'm LVCVA, this is my property. So I don't have to let you come in here, at all. But I do it, because the permit leases our building for that purpose.

    ME: Is the LVCVA a private entity?

    Thomas: It's a county facility.

    ME: That makes it government, right?

    (she thinks she is leading me in a direction that will favor her position...)

    Thomas: Yes.

    ME: The government is public.

    Thomas: What government building do you know that you walk into with your firearm?

    ME: All of them.

    Thomas: No you don't. YOu don't walk into a courtroom!

    ME: uhh, the courtroom is currently an exception.

    Thomas: You can't walk into a casino?

    ME: Actually, you can!

    Thomas: But they not gonna let you walk in deh wit it showin' out. I worked at a casino. So...

    ME: But that is also private property, not public.

    Thomas: But this is a quasi-simi-quasi-county facility. Our rules are, there are no firearms, none.

    (Gun Show!)

    ME: Can I throw you a bone here?

    THomas nods, with a smirk.

    ME: Most of what you just said is VERY inaccurate. The statute you are looking for is NRS 202.3673. It states that you may not carry a _concealed_ firearm in a public building. Ok? I have a copy of it in my back pocket....

    THomas: This here don't want it concealed or not concealed.

    ME: Can I finish?

    Thomas: Go ahead.

    ME: It regulates _concealed_ carry of firearms in a public building. Are we all on the same page that this is in fact a public building?

    Thomas: It's a public building when leased. Only when leased. It's not public when it is not being used by a government....by an organization. So what that means is that if there's nothing going on in here, you not allowed here, with a weapon firearm, except for this gun show. We have home shows...you can't come in here with a weapon. Ok, ok, we have animal shows. You can't come in here with a weapon. Ok, ok, listen. The nature of this is a gun show. We all know what the premise is. metro's here for you to inspect yo' weapon in and out of the building. That's it. That's it.

    ME: This property is owned by a government entity, which is the public. And when it is open to the public, as it is right now....

    Thomas: Sir, I'm not gonna go through dat wit choo. You abide by that, or you out da door. I don't care. I don't care. You got choo little video, that's fine, you know what, I got mine too (pointing to the ceiling). I don't care. You not coming in here unless they inspect your weapon. That's it. I'm not gonna sit here and debate....

    ME: You're not actually hearing me.

    Thomas: You're not actually hearing me. You're not actually hearing me. This is MY facility. I call the shots here.

    ME: Actually, this is MY facility, ma'am.

    Thomas: It is not, ohh, no no no sir, oh no no no.

    ME: I am going to slowly....

    Thomas: It's not your facility unless you leased it for your own...

    (Wesley, still standing there, is still all smiles and friendly. It was pretty clear that he was glad this was on her, not him)

    ME: I am going to get a piece of paper, out of my back pocket....

    Thomas: Ain't nobody gonna assault you..

    ME: Are you actually interested in being familiar with what I am referring to?

    Thomas: I have my own paperwork sir. I don't need yours. I have my own. We've had thousands of patrons come through here...and no problem whatsoever.

    (at this moment, I have managed to dig the tri-fold out of my back pocket. The peanut gallery behind me, 6475 remarks about my preparedness indicating that I was trying to start trouble, I respond with...)

    ME: No, you carry this when you expect to get hassled.

    Thomas: (never stopped bellowing) We've had thousands of patrons come in here, and no problems.

    ME: Does that make it legally compliant?

    Thomas: I will not have one person tell me what my job is. I'm not gonna do it. That's it, I'm not gonna do it. Now, I don't understand what the defense on your point's all bout? What's your defense, sir?

    ME: I don't need one.

    (as if on que, the show promoter shows up)

    Alcott: I'm the show promoter.

    ME: Am I done with Sgt. Thomas?

    The show promoter starts very aggressively rattling on unintelligably... before I interupt with:

    ME: Do you have a copy of your event permit?

    Alcott: Yeah.

    ME: You are required to produce it upon demand to anyone.

    Alcott: out, now. I'm not gonna...

    Thomas (to promoter): Sir, you don't have to...

    ME: Sir, (to promoter) are you representative of law enforcement?

    Thomas: He owns the show.

    He continues to just demand that I leave, ignoring everything being said.

    ME: Listen, I'll go along with you, just give me a minute.

    Alcott: No, just go.

    ME: Is someone from Law Enforcement ordering me to leave my public building? Anyone? (looking around at the assembled badges)

    Thomas: Him leasing the building gives him the right to decide who he wants to patronize.

    ME: Any representative of law enforcement? (to Thomas, who has not stopped rambling on) Are YOU trespassing me from a public building?

    Thomas: I'm not trespassing you yet. I'm giving you the courtesy to come back. If I trespass you, you won't come back ever.

    ME: Are you telling me to leave (directed towards 6475)?

    No response.

    XXXAlcott: X: I'm telling you to leave. I don't want you here.

    ME: I will walk out the front door, I expect a copy of your event permit in my hand. You are required by law to produce it upon demand.

    Thomas: We're not doing it. We're not doing it.

    ME: You won't?

    Alcott: Out.

    Thomas: No.

    ME: What's your last name Rick?

    Alcott: My name is Rick Alcott.

    ME: And you are the permittee?

    Alcott: Yes. Let's go.

    I decide to follow him out, for a change of scenery.

    I take up a position outside of the entrance doors.

    Alcott: Was that $13 or $14? (that I paid)

    I don't answer.

    Alcott: Was that $13 or $14?

    ME: A copy of your event permit?

    Alcott: I'm not going to give it to you.

    ME: You are required by law to produce it for ANYONE that demands it. That includes me.

    Alcott: Just go, yaknow? I'm not even going to give you your money back. YOu had a chance...

    ME: You're not going to give me my money back? After making me leave a public building?

    Alcott: Either you get it now...or you're not gonna get it..

    ME: Produce your event permit or a complaint will be filed.

    Alcott: File a complaint, and then you can take it and run it you know where. You want your money back or not?

    ME: I want a copy of your event permit.

    Thomas: We're not going to give you anything.

    At this point, I decided to take inventory of how many bodies were dedicated to me being hassled...

    ME: Ofc Cowman, can I have your P# please? (turns out he was LVCVA, couldn't tell at first glance)

    Thomas: You not givin him nothin. Nothin.

    ME: Oh, sorry, you're LVCVA, I understand, no P#.

    Thomas has been rattling on the entire time in the background, flailing her arms around.

    ME: So, 1, 2, 3.....show of force...

    Thomas: It automatically statutes that you not allowed to be here with a weapon.

    ME: Ma'am, you are so wrong, I don't even know where...

    Thomas: I don't care how wrong I am. But you know what?

    ME: You don't care how wrong you are..?

    Thomas: You keep pushing and you keep pushing...instead of you cooperatin', knowin' say, you know what, this is somebody's show... I'm telling you what the procedures are...whether you like it or not.

    ME: But your procedures aren't in compliance...with a public building..

    Thomas: You know what, this is OUR building.

    ME: This is MY building.

    Thomas: No it's not! You have not put a dime in here. Your money went to the vendor, which goes to the client. It does not go to me..

    (the idea of trying to explain the concept of being a taxpayer is hopeless, because she just won't shut up, i'm near ready to call it at this point)

    ME: (to Alcott) Sir, my only business with you is to get a copy of your event permit.

    Alcott: (to assembled people) I tried to give him his money, he don't want it.

    ME: I did not say I don't want my money. i want a copy of your permit, and you're required to produce it upon demand.

    Thomas: (to Alcott) Get his money please, and....

    Alcott: $13 or $14?

    Thomas: ...hand it to him.

    ME: You are required to produce it on demand. Are you declining to do so?

    Thomas: HE'S DECLINING. LET'S GO. That's it. That's it.

    ME: (to Thomas, who is still flailing around in my face, now extremely agitated) Are you telling me that you don't have to comply with law?

    Thomas: Don't you put me on the trial. I'm telling you you got to go. That's the end of it. Ok, you don't interrogate me. How dare you. YOU ARE A GUEST HERE!

    ME: Actually, I am not.

    Thomas: YOU ARE A GUEST HERE, BECAUSE I DON'T HAVE TO LETCHOO IN MY BUILDING! YOU ARE A GUEST HERE.

    At this point, Alcott has returned with my $14(*), and counts it in front of the camera, while Thomas is still going thermonuclear.

    Thomas: YOU DON'T SIT HERE AND INTERROGATE ME! I ALLOWED YOU TO COME THROUGH MY GATES!

    Alcott: Ten, eleven, twelve, thirteen, fourteen...

    Thomas: LET'S GO! DAT'S DA END OF IT!

    Wesley: (super politely) Ok sir, to your vehicle please.

    ME: I am not in the building anymore.

    Thomas: OH, YOU OFF DA PROPERTY NOW! YOU GOT TO GO BUDDY. YOU THINK IMMA LET YOU STAND HERE? YOU THINK IMMA LET YOU STAND HERE? DO YOU REALLY THINK THAT? I WANT YOU TO GO. YOU GONNA GO TO YOU CAR, AND OFF DA PROPERTY, OR IF NOT, I'M GONNA CALL METRO.

    ME: Metro is already here!

    Thomas: NO, I'M GONNA GET THE ONES DATS ON DUTY THAT WILL TAKE YOU TO...(unintelligible). THESE GUYS ARE WORKING FOR THE GUN SHOW. (she indicates 6475)

    ME: So he is _not_ on duty? Is that correct?

    Thomas: They are on duty for the gun show!

    ME: Is he NOT on law enforcement duty? he told me he was...

    Thomas: I DON'T CARE WHAT HE TOLD YOU. I DON'T CARE WHAT HE TOLD YOU. YOU KNOW WHAT?

    Thomas gets on her radio to finally summon uniformed Metro.

    ME: I will wait patiently here for them to arrive.

    At this point, my boy finally runs out of composure and starts to cry. He has been on my side under my arm the whole time, quietly observing, learning. But he has had enough, and breaks down.

    ME: It's ok buddy. You are doing great.

    Thomas: (to my boy) Sweetheart, sweetheart, it's ok, I;m sorry. (to me) You know, you got a lotta nerve, bringing yo' chile here to be exposed to this nonsense. What kind of parent or adult are you? This chile has no business goin through dis because you...you are stubborn, you are stubborn.

    ME: Can I answer that? The kind of person that would bring their child...

    (From the side, a patron and his family were exiting, and said something, hard to tell what, but it was to my defense. Something about how he brought his kid, and that Thomas didn't have to....something)

    ME: (to passerby) Thank you!

    Thomas: (lots of unintelligible, to the passerby) You ain't got nuttin to do wit dis.

    ME: Ma'am, the person who would bring their child to this event is the same person that...

    Thomas: YOU (unintelligible)....is unfathomable.

    ME: The person...

    Thomas: THE CHILE SHOULD NOT HAVE TO GO THROUGH THIS.

    ME: (finally) The person that would bring a child to this kind of event is the same kind of person that would boycott a bus! Do you understand that? You should know better.

    (Yeah. I went there.)

    Thomas: YOU DON'T EXPOSE YOUR CHILE TO IGNORANCE...

    (Hers?)

    Cowman: Sir, (very politely) can you step over here please?

    ME: Is that a lawful order?

    Cowman: Sir, can you step away from the door please?

    ME: Are you giving me a lawful order? If you say yes, I'll go. Say yes.

    Cowman: I'm asking you to step away from the door.

    ME: If you're giving me a lawful order, I will go.

    Cowman: I'm just asking you nicely to stand away from the door please.

    (At this point, I realize I am standing in the exit door swing area, and if someone comes out of the door too quick, I'm gonna get knocked out)

    ME: I don't want to get hit by the door, good call. Thanks.

    (I step 6 feet or so out of the door swing)

    Meanwhile, Thomas is still going on at full volume...and my boy is still whimpering.

    Thomas: It's a shame. (to my boy) Don't cry.

    There was a moment of quiet there, so I repeated my earlier statement..

    ME: Ma'am, the person who would bring a child to this, and allow this to be seen is the same person that would boycott a bus. Do you understand that?

    Thomas: You know what? But at least when you boycott a bus, it's reasonable, and it's civilized..

    ME: You know what? At that time, it wasn't!

    Thomas: ...Like I'm on a grand jury...

    (I don't think that means what you think it means!)

    Thomas: I don't have to answer you anything. I already told you...

    ME: I expect you to comply with the law.

    Thomas: ...what our procedures and rules are..and you failed to comply. I am not going to go any further with you. And thats it!

    ME: Has Metro been called?

    Thomas: Oh yes!

    ME: Excellent!

    Thomas: That's it. That's it.

    Wesley approaches..

    Thomas: Trespass him. Trespass him.

    Wesley reads me the tresspass warning, and while he is reading it...

    Thomas: Now you can't come back at all.

    Wesley: As a duly authorized representative of the owner of this property (me), I hereby warn you that you are trespassing upon this property as defined by NRS 207.200. If you do not leave these premises immediately, you will be subject to arrest for a misdemeanor. Your subsequent return to the premises after being duly warned not to return will subject you to immediate arrest for trespass. Do you understand that sir?

    ME: I understand what you read to me, yes! Fabulous!

    Thomas: Now, you have the opportunity to leave now, or metro's on it's way.

    ME: Metro's on the way?

    Thomas: Mmm Hmm.

    At thsi point, my son loses it again, and starts crying again, and says...

    Boy: I don't want you to go to jail..

    ME: I'm not going to buddy. If I was going to jail, they would already be doing so. There are already LEO here.

    6475: Sir, are you gonna leave, or are you gonna violate the uhh trespass...

    ME: Uh, no, of course not. It's been indicated that Metro is being called. Correct?

    6475: Sir, I am metro. We've already explained that to you. You're doing nothing but instigating.

    ME: Are you on duty sir?

    6475: Yes, I am on duty. You're the one that is elevating this sir....

    ME: I can actually cut it short. Since you've identified that you are on duty, if YOU give me a lawful order to leave the property, including the parking lot, I will do so.

    6475: Sir, this is the deal, ok.. You've been read...

    ME: I just gave you the bone!

    6475: Sir, will you stop..instead of talking?

    ME: Alright, go for it.

    6475: In order for me to relay a message, you have to get that message. Right now, A. you're endangering your child..(!!!) and B. they've afforded you the right to leave the premises now. Your subsequent return to this property or your refusal to leave the property will result in arrest for trespass. Do you understand that?

    ME: If YOU say it, yes I do. I understand that you;ve said that...

    6475: I;m not the duly appointed representative of the owner of the property.

    ME: But you've indicated that you're law enforcement.

    6475: My partners are (indicating the LVCVA security), I am law enforcement, I am on duty, with the police department. I'm not just on duty by the show management. We don't work off-duty in official security capacity with our department. That's a departmental policy....

    ME: Good policy.

    6475: ...When we work..off-duty..per se..today is my normal day..scheduled day off. Ok? But I am on duty..I'm logged on through dispatch..supervisors with the department know where I'm at. The department heads know where I am at. ok, and we're working throgh the department. So you;ve been read trespass..you're afforded the time to leave...and I would strongly suggest that you do so. If not, you are subject to arrest or citation for trespass.

    ME: Ok! Since that came from law enforcement, we're good! Thank you very much! See you later!

    At this point, they followed me to my vehicle so they could record my license plate number, and figure out who I was. I am fairly certain that they had my vehicle description out on the radio, and there were cruisers swarming the area when I left, but none managed to stop me. I;m certain they were hoping to jack me up on anything they could find.

    As I was departing, I had to circle back around because of a closed gate, so I stopped, rolled down the window, and and made sure they got my number correct.

    ME: It's X X X, X X X , you got that?

    "yeah, we got it".

    I also had opportunity to pass by Wesley, and I made it a point to convey to him that, while we disagreed about the law, his demeanor and respectful attitude was much appreciated, and that everyone else could learn a lesson by his manner. It was within earshot of his boss (Thomas).
    ---
    Carry On

  18. #18
    Regular Member
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    Quote Originally Posted by Lasjayhawk View Post
    I went to it (Crossroads at Cashman on Sat.) I thought it was funny that they are so paranoid about firearms, but there were 8-10" knives everywhere.
    The whole thing is just a fishing expedition to let them run serials. I have seen it before. They ask for blue card. In years past, I have complied. Not any more.

    I mean, it's a gun show for crying out loud. If I am a malintent, I can buy the gun and ammo right there, load them and lay waste (for the 2 seconds it would take to get gunned down).

    It's theater covering for a fishing expedition, nothing more.
    ---
    Carry On

  19. #19
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    This is going to be good. I hope that fictional person can find a lawyer. Maybe Dave aka Dont tread on me can help? Or maybe just maybe the NVFAC could?

  20. #20
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    Nice Pair! i bet the nap used up 3+ hours of the afternoon, these confrontations are draining and utilize much energy. if the person who had this encounter is still out of energy I would be happy to buy him a steak and a beer as well as anything the youngester would like!

  21. #21
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    I wonder what the response would have been if someone had gone into the main room and yelled "Hey! The cops out here are rousting some guy and his kid because he brought a GUN to a GUN SHOW!"

  22. #22
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    Ok I am a little confused. I was thinking they could not tress pass from a public building.

  23. #23
    Regular Member Frantic84's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by 28kfps View Post
    Ok I am a little confused. I was thinking they could not tress pass from a public building.
    that does not mean they wont try
    remove handgun registration in Clark County,NV

    2nd amendment in modern English: The people have the right to own and carry firearms, and it may not be violated because a well-equipped Militia is necessary for a State to remain secure and free.

  24. #24
    Campaign Veteran MAC702's Avatar
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    You cannot be trespassed from a public building if you have lawful business there. If a private company leases the facility, they can set their own entry requirements.
    "It's not important how many people I've killed. What's important is how I get along with the people who are still alive" - Jimmy the Tulip

  25. #25
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    Quote Originally Posted by Vegassteve View Post
    This is going to be good. I hope that fictional person can find a lawyer. Maybe Dave aka Dont tread on me can help? Or maybe just maybe the NVFAC could?
    Try Cal Potter or Bob Nersessian.

    Quote Originally Posted by DVC View Post
    I wonder what the response would have been if someone had gone into the main room and yelled "Hey! The cops out here are rousting some guy and his kid because he brought a GUN to a GUN SHOW!"
    I think it would have been: "Baaaa. Baaaa. Baaaaaaaa."

    Quote Originally Posted by 28kfps View Post
    Ok I am a little confused. I was thinking they could not tress pass from a public building.
    They have to dig deep into their nearly empty bag of tricks for trespassing or obstructing.

    Dude shouldn't have caved in after standing up so long and so well. Let them put their hands on him (assault) and transport him (kidnapping), depriving him of his 4A rights. He's barely got a false imprisonment tort.

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