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Thread: tacoma mall incident, first post, etc, could use some advice.

  1. #1
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    tacoma mall incident, first post, etc, could use some advice.

    Hi there!

    First post, have to get that out of the way, to at least explain unfamiliarity with the law in certain areas in a moment. You'll understand in a moment hopefully.

    More to the point, I was at the tacoma (tacompton as I've taken to calling it) earlier with my girlfriend, minding my own business, OC as always and was asked to leave by a "security guard" on a seway (lol) who must've been all of roughly 15 years old.

    Anyway, after telling said security guard I'd leave without a problem, I made a point of mentioning to him that there were no signs posted at the entrance I came through and they should remedy the situation as I'd done my part, to the letter of the law and made sure there was nothing posted about firearms being "prohibited" or otherwise on the premises. He of course claimed there were at every entrance (more on this in a moment).

    I proceeded toward the same set of doors I'd entered through, primarily to get back to my car, but also to do a little more thorough examination of the entrance I used when entering the mall and make 100% sure there were no signs posted, just as I'd already done when entering the mall initially. I happened across another "security guard" on my way out and engaged him in conversation, essentially looking for verification that what I saw was correct and to explain to him that *something* needed to be posted and clearly visible for people entering the mall to see. He and I went back and forth with the issue, refused an OC pamphlet claiming he "knows the law" but agreed to accompany me to the exit.

    When we reached the exit, he took me over to the left side of the entrance and showed me this poster type deal that was roughly 3'x2' entitled "code of conduct" or something to that effect, and pointed to number 13 or some silly garbage where it said no weapons, firearms, knives, etc were allowed (they sell knives and swords in the mall?) on the premises. The lettering on this sign used roughly 1/2" characters, and this sign was placed on the wall, literally just inside the door, several feet to the side of the opening, in a place where no one sees it nor would anyone think to even look in a place that's constantly bombarding you with advertisements and others assorted garbage from the second you set foot through the doors. With that being said, this sign was posted INSIDE the mall, to warn people that weapons were prohibited INSIDE the mall they'd already be standing in by the time they found out they were prohibited!

    What kind of crap is that? We have a sign that tells you the rules, and that guns are prohibited, even when legally carried, yet you have to COME INSIDE THE MALL to read the sign that tells you they're prohibited?? So by the time you find out, assuming you notice this joke of a sign with 1/2" text, just inside the door, where you wouldn't even look on entry to the mall, you're already in violation of their rules?? You have to be kidding me.

    Anyway, back to my point, I told the security guard that information should be clearly posted outside of the mall for all to see BEFORE they make their entry. They have the standard "no smoking within 25 feet of doors" yadda yadda yadda signs posted on BOTH sides of the entry, why can't they post something regarding firearms as well, maybe with those stick on decals everyone uses? His reply consisted of "well, no one ever reads those signs anyway"..!

    I explained that I was not no one, I know the law, I know my rights and I knew to look for a posted warning outside the mall before entry and for him to use that argument was bull. Eventually his cyclical "reasoning" got the best of my patience and I left, angry, irritated and frustrated. I did make it clear I would be contacting the mall or whoever I had to to at least get their policies changed and the situation remedied so this didn't happen to others. Imagine if they'd responded differently and called the police? I'd say I never saw a sign and they'd argue they had one clearly posted, then they'd play buddy buddy with the police, who I'm sure they're on a first name basis with, I would be arrested and god knows where things would go from there.

    Put simply, I'm angry, I'm irritated. I feel setup and I want to fix this. Any suggestions? Are there any rcw's I can quote regarding the notification of firearm prohibitions on private property and how they need to notify the public, etc?

    Please let me know, thanks!

  2. #2
    Campaign Veteran gogodawgs's Avatar
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    You were on private property. And asked to leave... Leave.

    You said you know the law. Yet you don't understand private property law.

    Signs have no weight of law in Washington.

    Welcome to OCDO, had you been here a while and read back through other threads you would know malls prohibit. OC.

    There are a couple of members on this board that are security for the Tacoma Mall. They are both well respected here.

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    This isn't about the private property aspect, they asked me to leave, I left. You seem to be missing the point here. The fact of the matter is that there should be something clearly posted so as not to essentially "bait" people into breaking their "rules" unknowingly. Or are you missing the point as well?

    I understand private property law just fine, I can assure you, I will spare you the details but I'm intimately familiar with it. Past that, don't make assumptions.

    Regarding the tacoma mall security officers, members here or otherwise, that is all irrelevant. You're just not getting it. Unless you have something constructive or informative to provide, I'll ask that you avoid adding one more tick mark to your post counter and actually READ what I'm saying. If you don't actually grasp what's being said or asked, then please, don't respond. It'll make a resolution on my part much easier to come by if I can filter out useless responses. Thanks.
    Last edited by stalfos; 08-05-2012 at 08:43 PM.

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    Campaign Veteran gogodawgs's Avatar
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    What's the bait that you allude to?

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    Regular Member SpyderTattoo's Avatar
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    Stalfos, you clearly do not know who you're talking to.

    If they put a sign up, it's a courtesy. They really don't have to put up any signs.

    You really should read alot more on this board and figure out how things work before popping off at members that have been around alot longer than you, and probably have way more experience with these things than you do. Keep a cool head, read back through the threads, and come with a bit more humility.
    Last edited by SpyderTattoo; 08-05-2012 at 08:59 PM.
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    Regular Member hermannr's Avatar
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    Simple solution: I have OC'd for many years, works all the time.

    1: I never look for a sign, they mean nothing anyway.
    2: someone asks me to leave, I leave.
    3: I follow up with a letter (snail mail type) to the owner of the business involved explaining that as they do not want my weapon, they also do not want my business and money.

    Sometimes those that asked you to leave, really do not have the authority to ask you to leave, and the owner tells me I am welcome to come back, with my carry. Sometimes they just do not want my business...and I honor that.

    No need to be upset, just don't go their again if that is the actual policy. (Check up on it) There are other good businesses that would welcome your business, your money and your carry.

    I live in Okanogan Co. After 8 years here, I have been asked to leave one restaurant...I just don't go there any more. 27 years before that we lived in Skagit County...no problems there either.

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    Regular Member SovereignAxe's Avatar
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    Even if they were posted effectively you wouldn't be arrested unless you refused to leave when asked, so stop worrying.

    As for the argument "they could just lie to the cops and say they asked me to leave," that's why most of us carry voice recorders when out in public.

    For now, just look at it as they're doing you a favor by letting you know that you shouldn't be giving them your money, albeit subtly.
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    Quote Originally Posted by gogodawgs View Post
    What's the bait that you allude to?
    I'm simply referencing the fact that they have *every* incentive to simply post a sign asking people not to bring firearms into their establishment. Who is to say that they couldn't mistake me for someone else they've had interactions with in the past and call the police to report a complaint, etc? Then it would step *way* past a simple request for me to leave to something much bigger. A sign on the door, akin to the "no smoking within 25 feet" signs, which they've obviously had no problems posting would be a simple, effective remedy.

    Quote Originally Posted by SpyderTattoo View Post
    You really should read alot more on this board and figure out how things work before popping off at members that have been around alot longer than you, and probably have way more experience with these things than you do. Keep a cool head, read back through the threads, and come with a bit more humility.
    I'm sorry, this is relevant to the topic at hand how? You see, I interpreted the initial response as arrogant, *******-ish if you will. If I misinterpreted that response, gogodawgs, I apoligize. SpyderTattoo, you however are more the child in the background at a school yard playground screaming "YEAH" every time someone yells an insult to someone else, etc. I've read enough of your posts to have an excellent idea of who you are and what you're about so I'd appreciate it if you stuck to my earlier request: "Unless you have something constructive or informative to provide, I'll ask that you avoid adding one more tick mark to your post counter and actually READ what I'm saying. If you don't actually grasp what's being said or asked, then please, don't respond. It'll make a resolution on my part much easier to come by if I can filter out useless responses. Thanks."


    Quote Originally Posted by hermannr View Post
    Simple solution: I have OC'd for many years, works all the time.
    This was about the only response I've been able to take seriously. Hermannr, thank you for that. I do appreciate the input and you've raised valid points I'm already familiar with, however the issue here, as was previously mentioned, is what if they'd mistaken me for someone else they'd already asked to leave previously? How would they have dealt with things from that point? No one can say for sure. I simply feel a sign or simple posting of some sort, prior to actually entering the premises would've been much easier. I would've gone somewhere else and there would've been no issue. I don't particularly feel as though I'm asking for a lot, especially considering there are thousands of mall patrons that filter through the establishment on a daily basis.

    Wouldn't a sign make more sense? A simple posting or request, clearly visible at the entrances..? I don't feel it should be such a big deal, especially when I'm following the law, to the letter and someone has chosen to invoke their rights as a private property owner, which I respect as well, however somewhere with such high traffic *should* provide something... more.

  9. #9
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    First off, welcome !

    Second - stop asking them to put up signs....

    Signs carry no weight of law except for those places off limits in RCW 9.41.300

    Some years ago there was a shooting at the mall, I do not go into the mall unless I am carrying but I CC.

    private property owners get to make their own rules ( We reserve the right to ...yadda... yadda...)

    I have been known to dash into Radio Shack and back out before security caught up with me......

    If you are going to stay on the forum, grow some thick skin.......

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    Quote Originally Posted by SovereignAxe View Post
    As for the argument "they could just lie to the cops and say they asked me to leave," that's why most of us carry voice recorders when out in public.
    This is an excellent point, however it raises more questions regarding the official capacities the security guards are acting in and whether something like that would be admissible in your typical court hearing scenario. Police officers can be recorded legally, without their consent here, yes (while performing duties relevant to their position of course), but private security guards on private property? I don't have any concrete answers on that either.

    I feel I should also mention the concept of reaching for a voice or video recorder at my first interaction with security, law enforcement or otherwise has yet to become an integral part of my OC routine. I've never felt threatened by a police officer, security guard, etc, so I have a hard time associating them mentally with anything negative and remembering to reach into my pocket and break out a camera or voice recorder at the first sign of trouble.

    Hypothetically speaking, say I was detained on some bs accusation like you'd initially stated where they could've lied, etc. What then? Who is to say my handy dandy voice recorder would've even retained it's microsd card after I'd been detained..?
    Last edited by stalfos; 08-05-2012 at 09:35 PM.

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    Regular Member SpyderTattoo's Avatar
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    Ouch, you got me... I think I'll just stop posting here from now on.

    As everyone can see by my post count and the date I joined, I'm clearly not trying to run up my post count. And thanks for the personal attack.
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    Stalfos,

    Welcome to OCDO.

    Regarding the sign, live and learn. I don't know any OCers who were born with complete knowledge of every aspect of OC. As you progress with OCing, you learn the types of private businesses that prohibit OC. Shopping malls pretty commonly prohibit weapons. Movie theaters and certain banking institutions are others. You'll come to the point where when planning an outing, you'll think, "Aha. That store is in such-and-such mall; I wonder if that particular mall is OC-friendly." You just absorb this stuff as you go along.

    Regarding your question about the voice-recorder, there is a difference between a detention and custodial arrest. If the police don't see you activate the recording, its less likely to disappear during a detention than a custodial arrest. In an arrest, a person is thoroughly searched.* This is the time the recording would be in more jeopardy. Activating the recorder will become second nature with practice. I turn it on at the first sign of a cop. Understand that this includes not just OCing on foot, but even driving while CCing. Notice it does not include first evaluating whether the cop has his attention on me, or first figuring out whether those flashing blue lights up ahead on the road are a traffic stop or a DUI roadblock. I just turn it on. This includes even if I happen to look in the rear-view mirror and there is a cop following me. Then only after I know there is going to be no encounter, I turn it off. This saves time, but my point here is that with all that practice turning on and off, it becomes somewhat second nature.


    *Google warrant exceptions (circumstances where a search or seizure is still considered reasonable even though a warrant is not obtained). You will find one of the exceptions to the warrant clause of the 4th Amendment is something called a search incident. The term is short for a search that is incident to an arrest.
    Last edited by Citizen; 08-05-2012 at 09:54 PM.
    I'll make you an offer: I will argue and fight for all of your rights, if you will do the same for me. That is the only way freedom can work. We have to respect all rights, all the time--and strive to win the rights of the other guy as much as for ourselves.

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    Quote Originally Posted by SpyderTattoo View Post
    As everyone can see by my post count and the date I joined, I'm clearly not trying to run up my post count. And thanks for the personal attack.
    If you'd like to turn this into a ******* match, please, pm me. This isn't the time, nor the place. I'm not trying to throw around my influence here nor a meaningless join date or post count, I'd suggest you refrain from doing the same, it only stands to reinforce my previous statement. kthanks.

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    Regular Member SpyderTattoo's Avatar
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    You were the one that brought up post count, not me. You made a personal attack against me. I didn't do that to you.
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    Regular Member Vitaeus's Avatar
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    Welcome to OCDO,

    When you are asked to leave private property by someone that is an agent of the owner (security guard would be such), just leave. If they had called the police and you were found by the first guy in company with the friendly LEO, you could have been trespassed, since you stopped to argue with a second guard, still on the property. I agree with M1gunner don't worry about a sign. Communicate with the business after the issue and collect a policy, if there was a sign at the entrance, just spend your money elsewhere.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Citizen View Post
    Regarding your question about the voice-recorder, there is a difference between a detention and custodial arrest. If the police don't see you activate the recording, its less likely to disappear during a detention than a custodial arrest. In an arrest, a person is thoroughly searched.* This is the time the recording would be in more jeopardy. Activating the recorder will become second nature with practice. I turn it on at the first sign of a cop. Understand that this includes not just OCing on foot, but even driving while CCing. Notice it does not include first evaluating whether the cop has his attention on me, or first figuring out whether those flashing blue lights up ahead on the road are a traffic stop or a DUI roadblock. I just turn it on. This includes even if I happen to look in the rear-view mirror and there is a cop following me. Then only after I know there is going to be no encounter, I turn it off. This saves time, but my point here is that with all that practice turning on and off, it becomes somewhat second nature.


    *Google warrant exceptions (circumstances where a search or seizure is still considered reasonable even though a warrant is not obtained). You will find one of the exceptions to the warrant clause of the 4th Amendment is something called a search incident. The term is short for a search that is incident to an arrest.
    Citizen, thanks for the information! The differences between custodial arrests and detentions, etc aren't exactly things I'm intimately familiar with, nor do I want to be, at least firsthand, I'm sure you can understand that. Regarding timing with starting and stopping recording, etc, I suppose it just comes with practice as you've stated in not so many words. Time will tell how well that goes. That does however bring me to another relevant question... Are there any forum posts regarding suggested video or audio recording devices that are ideal for OC usage..? I've searched a bit and sadly my search-fu is weak.

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    Regular Member ARADCOM's Avatar
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    Thumbs down Yeah, right.

    Quote Originally Posted by stalfos View Post
    I'm simply referencing the fact that they have *every* incentive to simply post a sign asking people not to bring firearms into their establishment.
    I'm drawing a blank so perhaps you could enlighten me to perhaps one 'incentive' they have to post a sign.

    Other than that, I find your initial responses to others posts quite out of line, but hey, maybe that's just the child in me.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Vitaeus View Post
    since you stopped to argue with a second guard, still on the property.
    To clarify, there was no argument, I was simply seeking some clarification on internal policies and for some direction in case I had somehow missed a clearly visible request to not bring firearms into their establishment. Consider this: If rules aren't questioned, how will people ever understand them, or in the event of complete understanding, how will they ever change them..? I had no intention of being difficult or otherwise, I was simply trying to understand the logic behind why "no smoking within 25 feet of doors" signs are more important than a formal request for patrons to not bring firearms into their establishment. The gap between the legal repercussions of the two situations, worst case scenario, is vast, to say the least.

  19. #19
    Regular Member ARADCOM's Avatar
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    Talking Say what?

    Quote Originally Posted by stalfos View Post
    If you'd like to turn this into a ******* match, please, pm me. This isn't the time, nor the place. I'm not trying to throw around my influence here nor a meaningless join date or post count, I'd suggest you refrain from doing the same, it only stands to reinforce my previous statement. kthanks.
    Now I just think you're a dick. And I'm pretty sure I'm right. ;-)

  20. #20
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    Hey everybody. Lets give the new guy the benefit of the doubt. We need all the OCers we can get. Whether he's right or wrong, abrasive, or sensitive is less the point. And, its not like we have many angels here. He's a member now, and an active OCer. He ran into a little friction at the mall. No big deal. Lets make peace and let less important personality differences slide--everybody.

    This advocacy of Bhuddist tolerance/Christian charity brought to you by the epitome of patience and manners, his humbleness, Citizen.
    I'll make you an offer: I will argue and fight for all of your rights, if you will do the same for me. That is the only way freedom can work. We have to respect all rights, all the time--and strive to win the rights of the other guy as much as for ourselves.

    If I am equal to another, how can I legitimately govern him without his express individual consent?

    There is no human being on earth I hate so much I would actually vote to inflict government upon him.

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    Quote Originally Posted by ARADCOM View Post
    I'm drawing a blank so perhaps you could enlighten me to perhaps one 'incentive' they have to post a sign.

    Other than that, I find your initial responses to others posts quite out of line, but hey, maybe that's just the child in me.
    hrrm, let's see. Public location, though private establishment, they've decided to institute their own rules, which they're entitled to do, in a state where open carry is legal. You'd think someone would be smart enough to say hey, maybe we shouldn't allow guns here, at least visibly, etc. Maybe we should post something, clearly visible, where someone can actually see it, much like those no smoking signs outside that "no one actually reads" just in case someone, you know, actually reads them..?

    Regarding your personal opinion on my responses, as I've previously stated to another, please, by all means, feel free to PM me. Otherwise, you have a nifty little back button on your browser you're more than welcome to click at any time.

    As I said previously, if I may have taken something that was said initially in a manner in which it was not intended, I apologize. The issue I have are the lackeys who have no relevant information to post adding their 2 cents when it's not necessary.
    Last edited by stalfos; 08-05-2012 at 10:18 PM.

  22. #22
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    Cuz we all know that criminals follow the NO GUNS signs!

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    Quote Originally Posted by Citizen View Post
    Hey everybody. Lets give the new guy the benefit of the doubt. We need all the OCers we can get. Whether he's right or wrong, abrasive, or sensitive is less the point. And, its not like we have many angels here. He's a member now, and an active OCer. He ran into a little friction at the mall. No big deal. Lets make peace and let less important personality differences slide--everybody.

    This advocacy of Bhuddist tolerance/Christian charity brought to you by the epitome of patience and manners, his humbleness, Citizen.
    Fair point. I'm more than willing to **** (heh, it starred out stf-up) regarding the personal issues, however there's still questions regarding the topic at hand. Not with the intent of being abrasive or otherwise, simply with the intent of learning without the usual "omg use the search function" everyone seems to be so fond of posting on every forum, anywhere, ever. There's lots to be said for actual conversation.

    To those that I've offended, I offer a sincere apology. I do mean it. Whether you accept it or not is your choice, however I will hold no ill will regardless of what you choose.

    thanks again.
    Last edited by stalfos; 08-05-2012 at 10:23 PM.

  24. #24
    Regular Member Vitaeus's Avatar
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    No personal animus taken here, the security guards are not the appropriate folks to discuss any policy. The owner or manager is the appropriate level, IMO. The only outcome of a discussion would be a bad one from your point if view, possibly involving a LEO and a trespassing charge. I don't have a good citation for the signage has no force of law, I believe it, but lack a citation. I am glad it doesn't however, since that would give a property owner in a public accommodation business too much power. Washington State's Constitution is generally more strongly worded than the US Constitution a good thing for citizen's.

  25. #25
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    Quote Originally Posted by stalfos View Post
    Citizen, thanks for the information! The differences between custodial arrests and detentions, etc aren't exactly things I'm intimately familiar with, nor do I want to be, at least firsthand, I'm sure you can understand that. Regarding timing with starting and stopping recording, etc, I suppose it just comes with practice as you've stated in not so many words. Time will tell how well that goes. That does however bring me to another relevant question... Are there any forum posts regarding suggested video or audio recording devices that are ideal for OC usage..? I've searched a bit and sadly my search-fu is weak.
    There are a number of threads. You might try search terms "voice recorder" "olympus" and "panasonic".

    I don't think there is anything that is ideal for OC. I am convinced it really depends on your budget and exactly how you plan to carry it.

    For example, there are a few out there modestly priced at WalMart and Best Buy for around $40-60. Some cost more if they have more hours of recording capacity, and have more bells and whistles.

    For example, some OCers prefer to carry theirs on a lanyard around their neck, and down inside their shirt. (Just watch for the heartbeat to show up on the recording.)

    For example, where I carry mine, a few recorders were out because it was too obvious it was a recorder.

    Also, you'll want to note the position of the switches. Where I carry mine and its orientation in the pocket, ruled out a few because the switches required too much twisting and inverting to turn it on.

    So, you will want to figure out where and how you will carry it. And, then imagine the hand motions and so forth required to get it out of there, turn on the recording function (two steps for most--one to activate the unit, one to activate the record function, rather than say the playback function), and then put it away again before the cop gets right up to you.

    Make a note of this next point. It is really, really helpful if the recorder uses mp3 software and has a USB jack so you can upload to the computer and internet. My first didn't, because I couldn't afford the cost of the recorders with those features. After needing to upload a recording to my computer, I really, really appreciated the utility of mp3 and a USB port on the recorder. If you can afford the ones that come with it, get those features.

    Some guys just use the recording feature on the smart phones.

    Some guys just start recording when they leave the house, and record the entire outing, and delete when they get home. I tried that, and found I ate batteries at an expensive rate. While I suppose rechargeable batteries would mostly solve that problem, I personally didn't head in that direction for fiscal reasons. Also, you will want to be real familiar with the wiretapping laws in your state. The recorder will record everything in ear-shot. Even if you are not party to it. In theory, this might be a felony if the state requires consent to intercepting a conversation in public, say at a cash register where you are the next in line and record the conversation between the cashier and the customer he's ringing up. Some will say there is no expectation of privacy in public. While true generally, I wouldn't want to be the test case, or try to get out from under an improper criminal charge because the cop or prosecutor didn't know about the privacy-in-public angle.

    Good luck on the hunt for a voice-recorder. Take your time and get it right the first time. You'll be glad you did. Its kinda like buying holsters. The more thought you put into the front end, the more likely you won't accumulate holsters you don't like or don't use.
    I'll make you an offer: I will argue and fight for all of your rights, if you will do the same for me. That is the only way freedom can work. We have to respect all rights, all the time--and strive to win the rights of the other guy as much as for ourselves.

    If I am equal to another, how can I legitimately govern him without his express individual consent?

    There is no human being on earth I hate so much I would actually vote to inflict government upon him.

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