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tacoma mall incident, first post, etc, could use some advice.

stalfos

Regular Member
Joined
Aug 5, 2012
Messages
13
Location
tacoma, wa
I'm drawing a blank so perhaps you could enlighten me to perhaps one 'incentive' they have to post a sign.

Other than that, I find your initial responses to others posts quite out of line, but hey, maybe that's just the child in me.

hrrm, let's see. Public location, though private establishment, they've decided to institute their own rules, which they're entitled to do, in a state where open carry is legal. You'd think someone would be smart enough to say hey, maybe we shouldn't allow guns here, at least visibly, etc. Maybe we should post something, clearly visible, where someone can actually see it, much like those no smoking signs outside that "no one actually reads" just in case someone, you know, actually reads them..?

Regarding your personal opinion on my responses, as I've previously stated to another, please, by all means, feel free to PM me. Otherwise, you have a nifty little back button on your browser you're more than welcome to click at any time.

As I said previously, if I may have taken something that was said initially in a manner in which it was not intended, I apologize. The issue I have are the lackeys who have no relevant information to post adding their 2 cents when it's not necessary.
 
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stalfos

Regular Member
Joined
Aug 5, 2012
Messages
13
Location
tacoma, wa
Hey everybody. Lets give the new guy the benefit of the doubt. We need all the OCers we can get. Whether he's right or wrong, abrasive, or sensitive is less the point. And, its not like we have many angels here. He's a member now, and an active OCer. He ran into a little friction at the mall. No big deal. Lets make peace and let less important personality differences slide--everybody.

This advocacy of Bhuddist tolerance/Christian charity brought to you by the epitome of patience and manners, his humbleness, Citizen. :D

Fair point. I'm more than willing to **** (heh, it starred out stf-up) regarding the personal issues, however there's still questions regarding the topic at hand. Not with the intent of being abrasive or otherwise, simply with the intent of learning without the usual "omg use the search function" everyone seems to be so fond of posting on every forum, anywhere, ever. There's lots to be said for actual conversation.

To those that I've offended, I offer a sincere apology. I do mean it. Whether you accept it or not is your choice, however I will hold no ill will regardless of what you choose.

thanks again.
 
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Vitaeus

Regular Member
Joined
May 30, 2010
Messages
596
Location
Bremerton, Washington
No personal animus taken here, the security guards are not the appropriate folks to discuss any policy. The owner or manager is the appropriate level, IMO. The only outcome of a discussion would be a bad one from your point if view, possibly involving a LEO and a trespassing charge. I don't have a good citation for the signage has no force of law, I believe it, but lack a citation. I am glad it doesn't however, since that would give a property owner in a public accommodation business too much power. Washington State's Constitution is generally more strongly worded than the US Constitution a good thing for citizen's.
 

Citizen

Founder's Club Member
Joined
Nov 15, 2006
Messages
18,269
Location
Fairfax Co., VA
Citizen, thanks for the information! The differences between custodial arrests and detentions, etc aren't exactly things I'm intimately familiar with, nor do I want to be, at least firsthand, I'm sure you can understand that. Regarding timing with starting and stopping recording, etc, I suppose it just comes with practice as you've stated in not so many words. Time will tell how well that goes. That does however bring me to another relevant question... Are there any forum posts regarding suggested video or audio recording devices that are ideal for OC usage..? I've searched a bit and sadly my search-fu is weak. :cry:

There are a number of threads. You might try search terms "voice recorder" "olympus" and "panasonic".

I don't think there is anything that is ideal for OC. I am convinced it really depends on your budget and exactly how you plan to carry it.

For example, there are a few out there modestly priced at WalMart and Best Buy for around $40-60. Some cost more if they have more hours of recording capacity, and have more bells and whistles.

For example, some OCers prefer to carry theirs on a lanyard around their neck, and down inside their shirt. (Just watch for the heartbeat to show up on the recording.)

For example, where I carry mine, a few recorders were out because it was too obvious it was a recorder.

Also, you'll want to note the position of the switches. Where I carry mine and its orientation in the pocket, ruled out a few because the switches required too much twisting and inverting to turn it on.

So, you will want to figure out where and how you will carry it. And, then imagine the hand motions and so forth required to get it out of there, turn on the recording function (two steps for most--one to activate the unit, one to activate the record function, rather than say the playback function), and then put it away again before the cop gets right up to you.

Make a note of this next point. It is really, really helpful if the recorder uses mp3 software and has a USB jack so you can upload to the computer and internet. My first didn't, because I couldn't afford the cost of the recorders with those features. After needing to upload a recording to my computer, I really, really appreciated the utility of mp3 and a USB port on the recorder. If you can afford the ones that come with it, get those features.

Some guys just use the recording feature on the smart phones.

Some guys just start recording when they leave the house, and record the entire outing, and delete when they get home. I tried that, and found I ate batteries at an expensive rate. While I suppose rechargeable batteries would mostly solve that problem, I personally didn't head in that direction for fiscal reasons. Also, you will want to be real familiar with the wiretapping laws in your state. The recorder will record everything in ear-shot. Even if you are not party to it. In theory, this might be a felony if the state requires consent to intercepting a conversation in public, say at a cash register where you are the next in line and record the conversation between the cashier and the customer he's ringing up. Some will say there is no expectation of privacy in public. While true generally, I wouldn't want to be the test case, or try to get out from under an improper criminal charge because the cop or prosecutor didn't know about the privacy-in-public angle.

Good luck on the hunt for a voice-recorder. Take your time and get it right the first time. You'll be glad you did. Its kinda like buying holsters. The more thought you put into the front end, the more likely you won't accumulate holsters you don't like or don't use.
 

stalfos

Regular Member
Joined
Aug 5, 2012
Messages
13
Location
tacoma, wa
The more thought you put into the front end, the more likely you won't accumulate holsters you don't like or don't use.

heh. Don't get me started. The first holster I've shelved alone could've paid for a voice recorder twice over more than likely.

Anyway, Thank you for the well thought out post! You brought up several things that I'd never considered and will be sure to keep in mind when shopping around. I wonder how Fry's will react if I ask them to open several sealed models just to check the ergonomics of each one... Oh well, they seem to have an excellent return policy at least, assuming there are no demo models available to help me make a decision prior to a purchase. We'll see how that all goes I suppose. :)

Thanks again!
 

ARADCOM

Regular Member
Joined
Jun 21, 2010
Messages
317
Location
NW Washington, Washington, USA
hrrm, let's see. Public location, though private establishment, they've decided to institute their own rules, which they're entitled to do, in a state where open carry is legal. You'd think someone would be smart enough to say hey, maybe we shouldn't allow guns here, at least visibly, etc. Maybe we should post something, clearly visible, where someone can actually see it, much like those no smoking signs outside that "no one actually reads" just in case someone, you know, actually reads them..?

Regarding your personal opinion on my responses, as I've previously stated to another, please, by all means, feel free to PM me. Otherwise, you have a nifty little back button on your browser you're more than welcome to click at any time.

As I said previously, if I may have taken something that was said initially in a manner in which it was not intended, I apologize. The issue I have are the lackeys who have no relevant information to post adding their 2 cents when it's not necessary.

hrrm, let's see. I didn't understand that you don't know the meaning of the word 'incentive', so my mistake for questioning you. Sorry if that in any way offended you.
 

stalfos

Regular Member
Joined
Aug 5, 2012
Messages
13
Location
tacoma, wa
hrrm, let's see. I didn't understand that you don't know the meaning of the word 'incentive', so my mistake for questioning you. Sorry if that in any way offended you.

Are you still going at this? The incentive would be to avoid issues with open carriers and the like, to "nip it in the bud" so to speak. I thought that would've been inferred by my response.

You've already made it clear you think I'm a dick, and I respect your opinion as you're entitled to it, however, to be quite honest, I really don't care to hear it, putting it nicely.

I'll reiterate, you know how to PM me, otherwise, your sarcasm and witless commentary aren't necessary, continue on about your business, and I'll continue on about mine.
 

HotLead

Regular Member
Joined
May 28, 2012
Messages
30
Location
silverdale WA
Welcome

Welcome to OCDO

I personally do not want to see any more signs than are absolutely necessary in life. As per your post;


Posted by Stalfos

“When we reached the exit, he took me over to the left side of the entrance and showed me this poster type deal that was roughly 3'x2' entitled "code of conduct" or something to that effect, and pointed to number 13 or some silly garbage where it said no weapons, firearms, knives, etc were allowed (they sell knives and swords in the mall?) on the premises.”

As you can see; knives are forbidden. Think about it; if the guards are going to kick 95% of all males and 65% of females out for knives the mall would close in two days for lack of business. Just like a concealed knife one might use a concealed hand gun “not knowing that there is a policy” then if you get caught and asked to leave you just leave. If the mall put that warning about knives like the no smoking sign they would be required to enforce it. It is my belief that they don’t want people to see it. I think they have it for a ‘cover your ass’. If one CC and gets, caught just leave happily and politely (I am NOT saying you were not). As others here have stated, if one finds out CC or OC is forbidden then just don’t go there but please do not ask for more signs.

P.S. I need all the posts I can get
 

stalfos

Regular Member
Joined
Aug 5, 2012
Messages
13
Location
tacoma, wa
P.S. I need all the posts I can get

Baaahahahaah! You actually got a good laugh out of me for that one. I somehow get the impression that's not going to go away any time soon. :lol:

Regarding the "cover your ass" aspect, that's an interesting perspective as well. Liabilities and all, and how sue happy everyone is now, it seems like posting it but not wanting anyone to see it would make perfect sense from an insurance perspective, etc. And god knows how much sense insurance companies and so on really make when you get right down to it...

Having thought about this for the last couple hours, I've reached the realization that a sign could work negatively as well. Say there's someone who CC's in said establishment, only to be found out somehow, and security or whoever onsite gets involved, they could just as well use the "well, it was posted on the door" defense and have some sort of charges brought, or god knows what else with occasional unpredictable police involvement.

It's a double edged sword, damned if you do, damned if you don't.

Lesson learned I suppose.
 

HotLead

Regular Member
Joined
May 28, 2012
Messages
30
Location
silverdale WA
You need 3 posts to pas me

I am not a lawyer but it is my belief that you can’t be trespassed (arrested) unless you refuse to leave. Or come back knowingly. It would be easy to state “no officer, I did not see the sign; I am very sorry. I will leave now”. I really don’t think the mall / store wants a confrontation.
 

BigDave

Opt-Out Members
Joined
Nov 22, 2006
Messages
3,456
Location
Yakima, Washington, USA
I am not a lawyer but it is my belief that you can’t be trespassed (arrested) unless you refuse to leave. Or come back knowingly. It would be easy to state “no officer, I did not see the sign; I am very sorry. I will leave now”. I really don’t think the mall / store wants a confrontation.

You can be trespassed from private property and if law enforcement is involved, they will ID you and record the notification not to come back on their property, if you returned armed or not you may be arrested for criminal trespass.

Private Property Owners are not required to post any signage to restrict firearms and bringing or keep bringing it up and being pushy you may get just what you want and make it a future issue with others carrying be it open or concealed, is it more important to be armed or to open carry? or is it the only place you can shop for the items you are looking for?
 

Citizen

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Joined
Nov 15, 2006
Messages
18,269
Location
Fairfax Co., VA
You can be trespassed from private property and if law enforcement is involved, they will ID you and record the notification not to come back on their property, if you returned armed or not you may be arrested for criminal trespass.

Private Property Owners are not required to post any signage to restrict firearms and bringing or keep bringing it up and being pushy you may get just what you want and make it a future issue with others carrying be it open or concealed, is it more important to be armed or to open carry? or is it the only place you can shop for the items you are looking for?

I'm glad you reminded me of this, BD. I didn't think to discuss it a few years ago when it came up, and have kinda wondered about it off-and-on ever since.

I would have a real problem with this. If I am leaving, and haven't been disorderly, I'm bloody damned if I am willing to cooperate in being ID'd just so the property owner and cops can build a case against me "for next time." Let the damn mall owner try to get pictures from his security camera or something if he wants to remember me. And, keep me out of the Policza files.

What is the state of the law in this situation? Anybody know a citation to statute or court opinion?
 
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Difdi

Regular Member
Joined
Mar 2, 2010
Messages
987
Location
Seattle, Washington, USA
This is an excellent point, however it raises more questions regarding the official capacities the security guards are acting in and whether something like that would be admissible in your typical court hearing scenario. Police officers can be recorded legally, without their consent here, yes (while performing duties relevant to their position of course), but private security guards on private property? I don't have any concrete answers on that either.

The key issue is whether they have an expectation of privacy. In an area open to the general public, like the main concourse of a mall, there is no expectation of privacy, just like there is none in the middle of a public park.
 

ARADCOM

Regular Member
Joined
Jun 21, 2010
Messages
317
Location
NW Washington, Washington, USA
Are you still going at this? The incentive would be to avoid issues with open carriers and the like, to "nip it in the bud" so to speak. I thought that would've been inferred by my response.

You've already made it clear you think I'm a dick, and I respect your opinion as you're entitled to it, however, to be quite honest, I really don't care to hear it, putting it nicely.

I'll reiterate, you know how to PM me, otherwise, your sarcasm and witless commentary aren't necessary, continue on about your business, and I'll continue on about mine.


OK.
 

Citizen

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Messages
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Location
Fairfax Co., VA
Wow, another thread in the shitter with a quickness.

Well, yes. Welcome to the world of men and all their frailities and shortcomings. Truthfully, I'd rather play here than a highly regulated forum like The High Road. That's not to say THR is bad or doesn't have its place or the people there don't have a right to enforce their wishes to play in a more genteel playground. It does mean that between the two, I like here better.

Besides, where else can a thread devolution be critized by a user named BadKarma? :)
 

badkarma

Regular Member
Joined
Jun 27, 2011
Messages
333
Location
Duvall, Washington
Well, yes. Welcome to the world of men and all their frailities and shortcomings. Truthfully, I'd rather play here than a highly regulated forum like The High Road. That's not to say THR is bad or doesn't have its place or the people there don't have a right to enforce their wishes to play in a more genteel playground. It does mean that between the two, I like here better.

Besides, where else can a thread devolution be critized by a user named BadKarma? :)

Fair enough. It seems to be more common though on this board that threads like this go from "I'm new and would like to tell you what I experienced." to "I will skull **** you for not understanding the difference between 9.41.060 and 9.41.050"

And back to your normal programming...
 

Citizen

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Joined
Nov 15, 2006
Messages
18,269
Location
Fairfax Co., VA
Fair enough. It seems to be more common though on this board that threads like this go from "I'm new and would like to tell you what I experienced." to "I will skull **** you for not understanding the difference between 9.41.060 and 9.41.050"

And back to your normal programming...

This is true. I agree. That's why we have to self-moderate a bit. By this I mean, moderators can't be everywhere, so members have to be willing to toss in a bucket of water to cool things, too.

Keep up the comments. We need more people who are willing to.
 

badkarma

Regular Member
Joined
Jun 27, 2011
Messages
333
Location
Duvall, Washington
And the final answer is.... Do what ever the hell you want. Complain. Don't complain. Send them a letter. Call their mom. Call the police. The advice you received so far is no one here is going to do anything to help you if you decide to complain. So don't ask them to join a protest or a "Sit-In" event because they will not attend. If you don't like the advice then Washington Cease Fire has a facebook page that needs a little molesting.
 
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