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Thread: Copycat Colorado Movie Theater Shooter Busted Before He Could do His Copy Cat Killing

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    Regular Member jpm84092's Avatar
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    Copycat Colorado Movie Theater Shooter Busted Before He Could do His Copy Cat Killing

    To my friends in Wisconsin Carry.org:

    The title says it all. The wanna-be copy cat killer was apprehended in Ohio by a security guard who was also an off duty cop when the suspect was noted as arriving 1 hour early for a showing of the Batman movie and behaving oddly. When confronted by the security guard / cop, he had some knives, a 9mm (make and model not reported) and enough ammo to get a high body count. He was sitting in the center back seat of the theater waiting for other patrons to arrive and the movie to start.

    Link: http://www.foxnews.com/us/2012/08/07...est=latestnews

    My forum friends, I fear that we are entering an era of copycat violence where anguished twisted souls with a history of personal failure yearn for their place in infamy by becoming mass murderers and grabbing the attention of the media. This is a wake-up call to the nation. Gun control laws do not stop these twisted souls, they just make it harder for law-abiding citizens to defend themselves. We alone are responsible for our personal protection and the protection of our families and loved ones. As others have pointed out, the US Supreme Court has ruled that the Police have no "duty to protect" us. Their job is to investigate crime and locate and arrest those responsible.

    God Forbid my friends, but that day may come when your very lives and/or those of your loved ones may depend on having a firearm and being proficient in its use. Seek out competent instruction from a Professional Firearms Instructor and then train, train, and train some more. Just look at this incident, Arizona, Aurora Colorado, and the Sikh Temple incidents. But for the Grace of God, the next one might involve you being there.

    Yellow Cat Out -
    My cats support the Second Amendment. NRA Life Member, NRA Instructor: Pistol, Rifle, & Personal Protection - NRA Certified Range Safety Officer, Utah BCI Certified Concealed Firearm Permit Instructor.
    "Permission Slips" from Utah, Pennsylvania, Nevada, Arizona, and Florida. _ Verily, thou shalt not fiddle with thine firearm whilst in the bathroom stall, lest thine spouse seek condolences from thine friends.

  2. #2
    McX
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    But for the Grace of God, the next one might involve you being there. ready, bring it.

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    Regular Member twoskinsonemanns's Avatar
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    Or you might be the one arrested. So far I have not read what laws this guys has broken.
    "I support the ban on assault weapons" - Donald Trump

    We are fast approaching the stage of the ultimate inversion: the stage where the government is free to do anything it pleases, while the citizens may act only by permission - Ayn Rand

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    Regular Member Horseman's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by jpm84092 View Post
    To my friends in Wisconsin Carry.org:

    The title says it all. The wanna-be copy cat killer was apprehended in Ohio by a security guard who was also an off duty cop when the suspect was noted as arriving 1 hour early for a showing of the Batman movie and behaving oddly. When confronted by the security guard / cop, he had some knives, a 9mm (make and model not reported) and enough ammo to get a high body count. He was sitting in the center back seat of the theater waiting for other patrons to arrive and the movie to start.

    Link: http://www.foxnews.com/us/2012/08/07...est=latestnews

    My forum friends, I fear that we are entering an era of copycat violence where anguished twisted souls with a history of personal failure yearn for their place in infamy by becoming mass murderers and grabbing the attention of the media. This is a wake-up call to the nation. Gun control laws do not stop these twisted souls, they just make it harder for law-abiding citizens to defend themselves. We alone are responsible for our personal protection and the protection of our families and loved ones. As others have pointed out, the US Supreme Court has ruled that the Police have no "duty to protect" us. Their job is to investigate crime and locate and arrest those responsible.

    God Forbid my friends, but that day may come when your very lives and/or those of your loved ones may depend on having a firearm and being proficient in its use. Seek out competent instruction from a Professional Firearms Instructor and then train, train, and train some more. Just look at this incident, Arizona, Aurora Colorado, and the Sikh Temple incidents. But for the Grace of God, the next one might involve you being there.

    Yellow Cat Out -
    I am missing the link between carrying a weapon, two extra mags, and four knives and wanting to be a copycat killer. Did the writer of the article have other info that was not mentioned? If so, why not say what it was. Is it possible that he was just another armed citizen with less-than-stellar social skills? Not taking a side, just cautioning that we should not be bum-rushed by the news media into believing something that is not supported by facts.

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    Regular Member jpm84092's Avatar
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    Update to my post

    I had first considered that this story was actually the account of a "roust" by LEOs, but then the facts started to sink in and I checked other media reports I formed what I consider to be an opinion based on what could be verified. I have presented those other links below:

    My own interpretation of this is that since the suspect was arrested and charged with six counts, it is unlikely that he was law abiding. However, it now known that he did not have a Permit / License to Carry / Conceal so it is irrelevant whether the theater may have been posted and Ohio no firearms signs have the force of law. (See source below.)

    Source: Ohio Law R.C. 2923.126(C)(3) allows the owner or person in control of private land to post a sign in a conspicuous place that prohibits persons from carrying concealed firearms on that property. (See www.handgunlaw.us for a full accounting of Ohio firearms law)

    The local TV station is carrying a version of the story that says the suspect was charged with violation of Ohio's Carry and Conceal Firearms Laws.

    Link: http://fox8.com/2012/08/07/n-ridgevi...ed-gun-knives/

    Now, what would a reasonable person conclude when a man is found with a gun that constitutes a violation of Ohio's Carry and Conceal Laws and several magazines in a theater and in violation of the law and acting in an atypical manner sufficient to garner the attention of a security guard? Yet another source is now reporting that the suspect indeed did not have a permit and was taking Rx drugs that prohibit him from having a permit.

    Link: http://www.cleveland.com/westlake/in...irm_scott.html

    The suspect was charged with six counts of violations of Ohio firearms laws (one for each knife and one for the gun) and the matter was considered serious enough that the local DA sought and obtained a search warrant for the man's home. Could he have been a law-abiding citizen who felt he needed and was carrying a 9mm, several magazines of ammo, and several knives to defend himself. If so, he will have his day in court. In any event, he did not have an Ohio permit or any permit / license recognized by Ohio, nor was he eligible to receive one. We do not know if the Rx drugs that made him ineligible were to treat mental illness.

    If it looks like a duck, quacks like a duck, and swims like a duck, it is probably not a moose! The Yellow Cat does not believe for one moment that this was anything other than a (thwarted) attempt at a copy cat mass killing.
    My cats support the Second Amendment. NRA Life Member, NRA Instructor: Pistol, Rifle, & Personal Protection - NRA Certified Range Safety Officer, Utah BCI Certified Concealed Firearm Permit Instructor.
    "Permission Slips" from Utah, Pennsylvania, Nevada, Arizona, and Florida. _ Verily, thou shalt not fiddle with thine firearm whilst in the bathroom stall, lest thine spouse seek condolences from thine friends.

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    I often carry 2 spare 15rnd magazines and a pocket knife. Does that make me a copycat?

    I'm not saying this guy wasn't planning something, but the reporting interesting.

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    Regular Member jpm84092's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by rmansu2 View Post
    I often carry 2 spare 15rnd magazines and a pocket knife. Does that make me a copycat?

    I'm not saying this guy wasn't planning something, but the reporting interesting.
    I cannot say. The media accounts did carry stories that the suspect did not have an Ohio Conceal Carry Permit and the suspect did not qualify for an Ohio Conceal and Carry Permit. The suspect did take drugs that make him ineligible to obtain an Ohio (or any other State/s License / Permit?) One might want to know if these drugs were to treat mental illness.

    Let uis take a hypothetical example: If you do have a history that makes you ineligible to obtain a (home state) permit / license - and you have elected to carry 5 knives and a 9mm handgun into a theater one hour before the film is to be shown, and you take up a tactical position with said weapons, then yes, as a former LEO, in my opinion, yes, I do believe that a person who behaved in this manner (the hypothetical you) would have been perceived by Law Enforcement ( and the Yellow Cat) to be a significant domestic terrorism threat.

    The suspect was behaving in a suspicious manner and should be questioned. The arresting officer, an off duty LEO doing security duty, did have probable cause to arrest the suspect for an attempt of domestic terrorism.

    Yellow Cat Out -
    My cats support the Second Amendment. NRA Life Member, NRA Instructor: Pistol, Rifle, & Personal Protection - NRA Certified Range Safety Officer, Utah BCI Certified Concealed Firearm Permit Instructor.
    "Permission Slips" from Utah, Pennsylvania, Nevada, Arizona, and Florida. _ Verily, thou shalt not fiddle with thine firearm whilst in the bathroom stall, lest thine spouse seek condolences from thine friends.

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    Man Arrested in Ohio (Suspected Aurora Copycat)

    What do you guys think of this? I know it is kind of an odd way of going about your 2a, but I think people panicked and a man was wrongfully arrested based on the information that was given

    http://rt.com/usa/news/dark-knight-ohio-arrest-087/

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    Regular Member Trip20's Avatar
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    We all want horrific events circumvented and we all want good officers to disengage when witnessing benign events (i.e., the opposite of the Madison 5 event). I'm willing to give leeway in instances that make sense to me...which means that factor is totally subjective... hence the problem.

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    Regular Member M-Taliesin's Avatar
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    Howdy Pard!
    A pistol on his person for personal protection and defense? Yeah, I can understand that.
    A satchel with another handgun, extra magazines and three knives? That I do not get.
    Why would an LEO not be suspicious.

    Whether it is a clean bust or not, I do not know.
    Ohio laws aren't my forte.
    But given the tensions in recent weeks, I can see where an LEO might exercise more caution.

    It will be interesting to see how this one pans out.

    Blessings,
    M-Taliesin

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    Regular Member MKEgal's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by jpm84092
    was taking Rx drugs that prohibit him from having a permit.
    I'm curious to learn what those would be.
    I can see someone being "under the influence" of pain drugs, but that's a temporary thing, not a complete legal prohibition from getting a carry license.
    Hopefully further reporting will bother to mention the specifics.

    Interesting that if he'd arrived closer to time, with the crowd, & sat down front (as many people arrive early to do) he probably wouldn't have attracted attention.

    If it looks like a duck, quacks like a duck, and swims like a duck, it is probably not a moose!
    Now I have dual mental images...
    1) A huge moose-sized yellow duckie
    2) A moose with a yellow duck bill instead of the usual mouth
    Should make for interesting dreams.
    Last edited by MKEgal; 08-08-2012 at 02:04 AM.

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    Regular Member Bellum_Intus's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by M-Taliesin View Post
    Howdy Pard!
    A pistol on his person for personal protection and defense? Yeah, I can understand that.
    A satchel with another handgun, extra magazines and three knives? That I do not get.
    Why would an LEO not be suspicious.

    Whether it is a clean bust or not, I do not know.
    Ohio laws aren't my forte.
    But given the tensions in recent weeks, I can see where an LEO might exercise more caution.

    It will be interesting to see how this one pans out.

    Blessings,
    M-Taliesin
    I agree, it's one thing to carry, it's entirely another to be a dumb&*$ .. These people are making us look like idiots..

    --Rob
    Kenaz Tactical Group

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    Regular Member mobiushky's Avatar
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    OK, before anyone reads this let me be VERY clear. I am not defending this guys actions. Are we clear? You all understand if you continue, I'm not condoning what this particular guy did. Seems to me he was not a CCW permit holder and was carrying concealed. So that's pretty cut and dry violation of the law.

    Given the recent events, you could see some of his actions as being protective more than destructive. In the mindset of a "sheepdog" atmosphere, you could actually see where a guy who might be a touch on the delusional side thought he was there to "stop" something. I could also see were someone who was on medication that precluded him from owning a firearm might step over a line if he was immersed in that sheepdog mindset. The fact that he's an idiot apparently never occurred to him. Maybe he was actually up to no good. But given his history and that he's married with a kid, I'd be more inclined to think he was trying to play protector and it got out of hand.

    Fact is, I carry a loaded 15+1 firearm with 2 extra 15rd mags and a knife in my backpack everywhere I go. I also carry a flashlight and a few other "get home" items. Difference is I have a valid conceal permit. And I don't go to the movies without my kids.

    Honestly, maybe he was up to no good at all. But I wouldn't be shocked to hear him claim, "I was just trying to protect people." And in his twisted mind he thought he was. Know what I mean?

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    Regular Member Tucker6900's Avatar
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    Hopefully it turns out that his intentions were good. We may never know. And if he is in violation the illusion of state law, then so be it. My problem with this is that if his intentions were indeed self preservation, then the constitution guarantees his right to that.

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    Regular Member OC for ME's Avatar
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    1. Half hour early?.....Been there done that.
    2. Sit in the back, against the wall?.....Been there done that.
    3. Carry with extra mags and a 'couple' of knives?.....Been there done that.
    4. Gone by myself (see 1 thru 3)?.....Been there done that.
    5. CCW permit?....Check.

    So, other than the CCW permit, I am a potential copycat. The 'weapons' violations. Is a CCW permit required to carry a knife or knives upon your person in a concealed manner in Ohio? Likely yes, as it is in Missouri, if the knives are not of a configuration that makes them prohibited for concealed carry.

    "Bullins [the off-duty officer] looked inside and saw a loaded Glock 9 millimeter handgun, two fully loaded magazine clips, three knives in the bag and one on his person," Arcuri said. "When Bullins asked why he carried the weapons into the theater, the man said, 'No problem. I'll put them in my car.' But it was too late for that."

    http://rt.com/usa/news/dark-knight-ohio-arrest-087/
    There are, based on reports, zero indications that this citizen is a potential copy cat of Aurora other than the salacious and unfounded allegations made by the state. Yet, the citizen provides little to enlighten us as to his version.....smart fella in my view. Let his lawyer do his talking for him.

    Smith has thus far refused to speak with police.

    http://rt.com/usa/news/dark-knight-ohio-arrest-087/
    Cops don't like citizens who will not talk to them. Apparently guilt by inference is running rampant in multiple quarters.

    The state is tossing out crap and seeing what will stick in the minds of the jury pool. I am for the citizen and against the state until a jury of his peers decide that I am wrong. Unfortunately, I seem to be alone at this juncture.
    "I would rather be exposed to the inconveniences attending too much liberty than to those attending too small a degree of it." - Thomas Jefferson.

    "Better that ten guilty persons escape, than that one innocent suffer" - English jurist William Blackstone.
    It is AFAIK original to me. Compromise is failure on the installment plan, particularly when dealing with so intractable an opponent as ignorance. - Nightmare

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    Regular Member OC for ME's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by jpm84092 View Post
    I cannot say. The media accounts did carry stories that the suspect did not have an Ohio Conceal Carry Permit and the suspect did not qualify for an Ohio Conceal and Carry Permit. The suspect did take drugs that make him ineligible to obtain an Ohio (or any other State/s License / Permit?) One might want to know if these drugs were to treat mental illness.
    Odd that his medical history is now considered an open topic for discussion.....HIPAA? We assume that his medical history precludes the citizen from lawful firearms ownership based solely on media report(s).

    Since when does LE get to decide if a citizen can lawfully possess a firearm? Dangerous ground that we tread.

    Let us take a hypothetical example: <snip>
    No!.....appeals to emotion is how good citizens get tossed into the Big House, wrongly, by a gullible jury. It is easy to presume the worst of one of our fellow citizens based solely on the word of the state. Our natural trust of the state and their good intentions is a powerful aphrodisiac that falsely comforts us.

    The suspect was behaving in a suspicious manner and should be questioned. The arresting officer, an off duty LEO doing security duty, did have probable cause to arrest the suspect for an attempt of domestic terrorism.
    Really?

    Somehow I don't think he did if the linked report is accurate. RAS, maybe.....a BIG MAYBE. It seems, based on the report, like a bunch of hunches and gut feelings (Do I need to cite case law on hunches and gut instincts to articulate RAS?) were used to convince the citizen to agree to the search of his bag. I wonder how many women have large bags capable of concealing various dangerous weapons?

    Several questions: Has there been a occasion before this citizen, where a citizen has entered a 1/2 hour early? Alone? With a bag? Sitting 'there'? If the answer is yes to any or all then there may be a hard row hoe for the state.

    If the LEO had PC no request to search the bag, if a request was given, would have been made. Ya know how this goes...."Excuse me Sir, do you mind if I take a look in your bag?"....."It's theater policy and we missed yours."

    Yellow Cat Out -
    On a personal note, regarding the bolded above. I am certainly comforted that you are a former LEO.
    "I would rather be exposed to the inconveniences attending too much liberty than to those attending too small a degree of it." - Thomas Jefferson.

    "Better that ten guilty persons escape, than that one innocent suffer" - English jurist William Blackstone.
    It is AFAIK original to me. Compromise is failure on the installment plan, particularly when dealing with so intractable an opponent as ignorance. - Nightmare

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    Regular Member mobiushky's Avatar
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    Only problem is, he did violate a state law in regards to carrying a firearm concealed. You can argue that 2A is an across the board permit, but in this day that's not going to float (even if that is unfortunate). The state has a law. He appears to have violated that law. Not only by carrying concealed, but he was apparently not legally allowed to possess the firearm in the first place. (Now I'll admit that we don't even really know if that's true.) In one sense, he was violating the law.

    Now, in a better world, he should have been able to simply refuse the search. He may have been asked to leave, but the theater management does withhold the right to deny service. At that point he's trespassing. Unfortunately he agreed to the search which makes it a legal search.

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    Regular Member rscottie's Avatar
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    I am curious how ANYONE knows this mans intentions considering he has invoked his right to remain silent.

    Until there is proof otherwise, I consider this man innocent.

  19. #19
    Regular Member jbone's Avatar
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    He also allegedly had hundreds of pictures of guns on his phone.
    Gun porn that's a life sentance alone if convicted
    Iím proudly straight. I'm free to not support Legalization, GLBT, Illegal Aliens, or the Islamization of America.

  20. #20
    Regular Member 09jisaac's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by jpm84092 View Post
    Seek out competent instruction from a Professional Firearms Instructor and then train, train, and train some more.
    Please explain to me why I have to get instruction from people who can have less training that I just because they are "professional". I noticed something about "professionals", they stick to what they think is right even if you prove them wrong. I know way more about Kentucky laws than the "professionals" that I had to take a CCDW class from. Being a professional should mean nothing. You should have ONLY described the instructor as "competent" and left it at that.

    Quote Originally Posted by jpm84092 View Post
    If it looks like a duck, quacks like a duck, and swims like a duck, it is probably not a moose! The Yellow Cat does not believe for one moment that this was anything other than a (thwarted) attempt at a copy cat mass killing.
    If it looks like duck? Really? How many people on this forum carries a firearm without a permit? How many people on this forum carries a similar setup? How many people act similar to this guy? I am just south of the Ohio border in Kentucky. Many people don't know you can legally carry a firearm (openly) without a permit. This guy may have thought that was the only way he could protect his life with a reasonable chance not to be hassled and arrested by LEO. And he would have been mostly correct.

    He looks highly similar to the rest of us. I have never attempted (and I don't think I will) a mass killing. You assume too much.

    Quote Originally Posted by mobiushky View Post
    Honestly, maybe he was up to no good at all. But I wouldn't be shocked to hear him claim, "I was just trying to protect people." And in his twisted mind he thought he was. Know what I mean?
    Maybe he had no delusions. He could have just wanted to see the batman movie, showed up early (as I often do) and just wanted to feel safe. Are any of those possibilities unreasonable? I feel that you are keeping an open mind in this situation. Yes he broke the law (a law I do not feel is right), but that does not make him a copy cat of a mass shooter.
    No man alive can beat me in a fair fight: It's not fair to chase a man down and beat him.

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    Regular Member mobiushky's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by 09jisaac View Post
    Maybe he had no delusions. He could have just wanted to see the batman movie, showed up early (as I often do) and just wanted to feel safe. Are any of those possibilities unreasonable? I feel that you are keeping an open mind in this situation. Yes he broke the law (a law I do not feel is right), but that does not make him a copy cat of a mass shooter.
    I never said he was a potential mass shooter. In fact if you review my post you will see a relatively convincing explanation as to why I think he wasn't a copy cat. But was instead simply a guy who was trying to stay safe in a "scary" time. Unfortunately he did it the wrong way. Now, having said that, he may have well known (if in fact the drug prescription bit from the police is true) that he was not legally allowed to carry a firearm. That being the case, he probably saw no other choice and decided to take the chance. However, doing it again, I think he probably should not have consented to search as they had no reason to suspect he had committed a crime. If he had refused, he may have been asked to leave, but at least he would not be sitting in jail now.

    It's even possible that this could turn into a 2A SCOTUS case where we get to test the reality of "shall not be infringed." But I kind of doubt it.

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    Regular Member 09jisaac's Avatar
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    I wasn't clear. I was continuing the way you were going.
    No man alive can beat me in a fair fight: It's not fair to chase a man down and beat him.

  23. #23
    Regular Member jbone's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by 09jisaac View Post
    Please explain to me why I have to get instruction from people who can have less training that I just because they are "professional".
    That's right! We've all seen this video of a so-called professional giving instruction.
    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eP6UvNgbqIA
    Iím proudly straight. I'm free to not support Legalization, GLBT, Illegal Aliens, or the Islamization of America.

  24. #24
    Regular Member mobiushky's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by 09jisaac View Post
    I wasn't clear. I was continuing the way you were going.
    Got it. I did misunderstand.

  25. #25
    Regular Member mobiushky's Avatar
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    His attorney has commented:

    http://www.cleveland.com/westlake/in..._smith_br.html

    Kind of exactly what I was expecting to hear.

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