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Thread: Weapons were drawn tonight! Serious situation ends well.

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    Regular Member M-Taliesin's Avatar
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    Weapons were drawn tonight! Serious situation ends well.

    Howdy Folks!
    While I cannot elaborate on details right now, we arrested a fugitive last night and transported her to jail without incident.

    Tonight my team went into a situation where an unknown number of people were in our target location, and in addition, at least another 8 to 10 were on the back part of the property. We were backed up by local sheriff's deputies. We did not know if weapons were at the location, or whether we might face armed resistence. We drew our weapons and searched the building. We found our man, and took him into custody.

    At this time, I am coming down off an adrenaline buzz and figure I need time to mellow out.

    After I left off another agent, I went to get gas for my Jeep. I was open carrying, and I was in Denver. I really didn't much care whether they might have an issue with it or not. I just wanted to gas up and get myself home.

    All in all, it was a terrific two nights, and I love my gig!

    Blessings,
    M-Taliesin

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    Founder's Club Member - Moderator Grapeshot's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by M-Taliesin View Post
    --snip-- I was in Denver. I really didn't much care whether they might have an issue with it or not. I just wanted to gas up and get myself home.
    Are you not subject to the Denver ordinances?
    Old and treacherous will beat young and skilled every time.

    Yata hey

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    Regular Member GTShooter's Avatar
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    Glad everything went out well.

    Stay safe Mel.

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    Regular Member M-Taliesin's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Grapeshot View Post
    Are you not subject to the Denver ordinances?
    Howdy Grapeshot!
    That would be highly debatable, given how the law is written.

    DRMC 38-117(f)(2) which reads "while traveling into or through the city to or from another jurisdiction, regardless of the number of times the person stops in the city or the other jurisdiction" is in conflict with state law and is preempted by state law.

    That verbage is from the Meyer's decision that exempted Denver from the State's preemption language, denying open carry under most circumstances.
    Since I was coming out of another jurisdiction where open carry is legal, and travelling to another jurisdiction where it is also legal, but forced to stop for fuel in Denver, I made a stop within the city/county jurisdiction for fuel. Added to that, I was on private property while doing so. Total number of stops while travelling into Denver's jurisdiction was precisely one. Got fuel, went inside, used the facilities, bought something to eat, left Denver's jurisdiction.

    If some officer was having a bad day, or wanted to make a fuss about it, yeah, they could have tried me on for size.

    Don't think it would pan out well for such officer having done so, though.

    Blessings,
    M-Taliesin

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    Founder's Club Member - Moderator Grapeshot's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by M-Taliesin View Post
    Howdy Grapeshot!
    That would be highly debatable, given how the law is written.

    DRMC 38-117(f)(2) which reads "while traveling into or through the city to or from another jurisdiction, regardless of the number of times the person stops in the city or the other jurisdiction" is in conflict with state law and is preempted by state law.

    That verbage is from the Meyer's decision that exempted Denver from the State's preemption language, denying open carry under most circumstances.
    Since I was coming out of another jurisdiction where open carry is legal, and travelling to another jurisdiction where it is also legal, but forced to stop for fuel in Denver, I made a stop within the city/county jurisdiction for fuel. Added to that, I was on private property while doing so. Total number of stops while travelling into Denver's jurisdiction was precisely one. Got fuel, went inside, used the facilities, bought something to eat, left Denver's jurisdiction.

    If some officer was having a bad day, or wanted to make a fuss about it, yeah, they could have tried me on for size.

    Don't think it would pan out well for such officer having done so, though.

    Blessings,
    M-Taliesin
    Answer is in the fine points then. I appreciate it.
    Old and treacherous will beat young and skilled every time.

    Yata hey

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    Regular Member M-Taliesin's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by GTShooter View Post
    Glad everything went out well.

    Stay safe Mel.
    Howdy GT!
    I'll admit to being a bit stiff and sore this morning. It's been awhile since I did a 'low crawl' flat on my belly to reach a vantage point for surveillance.

    Before the team assembled, I open carried in Golden, i.e. Walmart and Safeway, and nobody much paid any mind.
    The best metal detector store I know of in the whole state of Colorado is over in Golden, and I've carried in there many times with never any trouble at all.
    Then again, I've bought some serious machines there, and they know me pretty good. I thought about stopping by, but never really got a chance.

    Golden seems pretty darn accepting of OC.

    Blessings,
    M-Taliesin

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    Regular Member wmodavis's Avatar
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    Glad it came out fine. Also glad you like your adrenaline boosting gig! And Thanks for posting your insight into that favorite of ours..... the preemption thing once again. Since they haven't favored the request to sticky it guess you'll have to keep it on the forefront.

  8. #8
    Regular Member M-Taliesin's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Grapeshot View Post
    Answer is in the fine points then. I appreciate it.
    Howdy Grapeshot!
    It was a great question, and one I do not take exception to.
    I do, however, take my chances and open carry quite often while going about my normal day to day business.
    I often travel into Denver territory from another jurisdiction, usually while on my way to another jurisdiction, because Denver is real big and tends to be this huge obstacle sitting right in the middle of places I'm trying to get! LOL!

    Maybe I'm taking chances, I'll admit that freely enough. There may come a day when I am given trouble by some officer trying to enforce what is, by the verbage of the Meyers decision, a preempted activity. Then again, we have seem examples of carriers infringed while going about this perfectly legal activity in other jurisdictions which are actually preempted. (i.e. the Thornton theater carrier who got arrested).

    My attitude is that I don't invest a great deal of time fretting about what is possible to go wrong, I figure I'll open carry, and cross those bridges when (and if) the time comes. Do I go out of my way to bring about a situation whereby such bridge needs crossing? Perhaps. Do I adhere to the letter of the law? I believe so. Do I need a hassle of that magnitude? Heavens no. Do I shrink from the possibility that it could come along one of these fine days? No. I won't be cowed, won't be denied my lawful right, and won't be intimidated by an officer who abuses my right.

    I ain't looking to be a test case, but I won't be spending much energy worrying about it either.

    Thanks for the question. I am certain others might be curious about the same thing and am glad for the opportunity to speak about it so others can know what the decision was in Meyers. Yeah, they're exempt from most of the state's preemption law; but there are exceptions to their exceptions. They ain't got carte blanche to completely infringe the rights of a citizen as they'd hoped.

    And depending on the decision in the case now before the 10th, they may discover they have even less authority than they hoped to impose.
    That decision is far overdue.

    Have a terrific open carry day!

    Blessings,
    M-Taliesin

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    Founder's Club Member - Moderator Grapeshot's Avatar
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    M-Taliesin - From your history, I was confident that you knew something which I did not and that exception is of major import for those traveling through.

    One of my habits is to try and imagine what might go wrong and to come up with a solution beforehand. I think you probably do that much more than you realize - suspect it is an automated function. Was offered a job similar to your vocation many years ago - couldn't accept it as I was a single parent raising two minor children. Believe it would have been rewarding on several levels though.

    My son just brought back two from another state. Much better rules/guidelines now than I worked for the same agency. What really blew me away though was that they had use of the governor's plane.
    Old and treacherous will beat young and skilled every time.

    Yata hey

  10. #10
    Regular Member M-Taliesin's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Grapeshot View Post
    M-Taliesin - From your history, I was confident that you knew something which I did not and that exception is of major import for those traveling through.
    Howdy Pardner!
    I can't tell you how important it is to know the law, especially in light of recent events. Even if a citizen is merely visiting our state right now, we have been witness to a number of violations of civil liberties and constitutional violations. There has been a spate of citizens being wrongly charged for completely lawful activity, and there seems to be a jack-booted attitude in law enforcement that they are the masters and overlords rather than servants of the people.

    That has got to change. For me, for visitors to my state, to my friends in the OC community and anybody who might be swept up for simply exercising their rights under our Constitution of the United States, and the Constitution of the State of Colorado.

    This is more than a matter of convenience, and more than a matter of whether or not we end up with an arrest record. It is a matter of governments attempting a power grab that is contrary to the spirit and purpose of our laws.

    I am planning to suggest a series of steps that may be taken to restrain the police departments in our state from further violations of this sort.
    And I believe the time to quash this type of infringement is now. The message must be pounded home hard and with out ambiguity;
    You work for us.... the people are still in charge.

    Thats the stuff of another post. I will need to work through some thoughts before I can articulate them with clarity.

    Blessings,
    M-Taliesin

  11. #11
    Regular Member M-Taliesin's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Grapeshot View Post
    One of my habits is to try and imagine what might go wrong and to come up with a solution beforehand. I think you probably do that much more than you realize - suspect it is an automated function. Was offered a job similar to your vocation many years ago - couldn't accept it as I was a single parent raising two minor children. Believe it would have been rewarding on several levels though.
    Howdy Pardner!
    Before we make an apprehension, we consider our plan well ahead of time. Where are the windows? What doors exist? How many guys are we going to need? Do we need local LEO backup? And a whole lot of other logistical concerns.

    In the long run, we do a whole lot more planning than folks see on television. We may spend hours of surveillance to ensure we know what to anticipate when we make our move. But no matter how well you plan, always anticipate an encounter with the unexpected. It usually turns up at some point during an op.

    But one thing I can tell you is.... this is an addictive line of endeavor. I think Hemingway said it best:
    "There is nothing like the hunting of man. And those who have hunted armed men long enough, and liked it, never care for anything else!"

    It ain't for everybody, but I sure do love it. I mean... I really would rather do this type work than sit in a cubicle answering phones.

    Blessings,
    M-Taliesin

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    Regular Member Bellum_Intus's Avatar
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    Im da daoug da beeg bad daoug .. da bauni huntaaaaaaa...

    =p

    (Don't beat me up MT)

    --Rob
    Kenaz Tactical Group

    "They who can give up essential liberty to obtain a little temporary safety, deserve neither liberty nor safety." - Benjamin Franklin

    "Socialist governments traditionally do make a financial mess. They [socialists] always run out of other people's money. It's quite a characteristic of them."
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    Regular Member M-Taliesin's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Bellum_Intus View Post
    Im da daoug da beeg bad daoug .. da bauni huntaaaaaaa...

    =p

    (Don't beat me up MT)

    --Rob
    Howdy Pard!
    Just a correction here....
    We are professionals, and our team is all pro. You couldn't ask for a better team.
    Unlike people with TV shows, we set out to do stuff right!

    Blessings,
    M-Taliesin

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    Regular Member Bellum_Intus's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by M-Taliesin View Post
    Howdy Pard!
    Just a correction here....
    We are professionals, and our team is all pro. You couldn't ask for a better team.
    Unlike people with TV shows, we set out to do stuff right!

    Blessings,
    M-Taliesin
    I know.. heh.. we've had this conversation :P

    Hence the JAB at ya.. heh.. I do it cause I like ya..

    --Rob
    Last edited by Bellum_Intus; 08-08-2012 at 08:10 PM.
    Kenaz Tactical Group

    "They who can give up essential liberty to obtain a little temporary safety, deserve neither liberty nor safety." - Benjamin Franklin

    "Socialist governments traditionally do make a financial mess. They [socialists] always run out of other people's money. It's quite a characteristic of them."
    --Margaret Thatcher

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    Regular Member M-Taliesin's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Bellum_Intus View Post
    I know.. heh.. we've had this conversation :P

    Hence the JAB at ya.. heh.. I do it cause I like ya..

    --Rob
    Howdy Amigo!
    No trace of offense taken amigo! I know when my lariat is being tugged.
    I just figured I'd throw back as good a jab as I got! LOL!

    You know... I've always fancied becoming a ranger.
    Don't know if they would even consider me, considering I was a much different man in days gone by.
    There is a song that hits on that point: Tim McGraw "I'm better than I used to be!"
    There's a whole long story behind all that, and I ain't going into it anytime soon.

    Odd thing is, I had one guy who already is a ranger ask to join up with bounty hunting!
    How off camber is that?

    Blessings,
    M-Taliesin

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    Regular Member Bellum_Intus's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by M-Taliesin View Post

    Odd thing is, I had one guy who already is a ranger ask to join up with bounty hunting!
    How off camber is that?

    Blessings,
    M-Taliesin

    At least you get paid to be a bounty hunter ..

    the Colorado Rangers are 100% volunteer ..

    --Rob
    Kenaz Tactical Group

    "They who can give up essential liberty to obtain a little temporary safety, deserve neither liberty nor safety." - Benjamin Franklin

    "Socialist governments traditionally do make a financial mess. They [socialists] always run out of other people's money. It's quite a characteristic of them."
    --Margaret Thatcher

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    Regular Member M-Taliesin's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Bellum_Intus View Post
    At least you get paid to be a bounty hunter ..

    the Colorado Rangers are 100% volunteer ..

    --Rob
    Howdy Pardner!
    True enough, but sometimes it ain't about the money. I did a good deal of bounty hunting without being paid as I learned the craft.
    Now I get paid. But in those early days, it was about doing something that gave back to the community.
    Taking a fugitive off the streets is beneficial to the community, IMHO, and I didn't mind doing it 'gratis' while learning the ropes.

    Then again, I am still learning the ropes. There are a whole lot of those ya know.

    Blessings,
    M-Taliesin

  18. #18
    Regular Member Bellum_Intus's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by M-Taliesin View Post
    Howdy Pardner!
    True enough, but sometimes it ain't about the money. I did a good deal of bounty hunting without being paid as I learned the craft.
    Now I get paid. But in those early days, it was about doing something that gave back to the community.
    There ya go... =)

    --Rob
    Kenaz Tactical Group

    "They who can give up essential liberty to obtain a little temporary safety, deserve neither liberty nor safety." - Benjamin Franklin

    "Socialist governments traditionally do make a financial mess. They [socialists] always run out of other people's money. It's quite a characteristic of them."
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    Denver has a ban on open carry, and a ban on concealed carry. Both are pre-empted by DENVER law if you have a valid CCW. Meaning, you can legally open carry in Denver if you have a CCW.

    At least, that is how the law reads going over it with a professional recently. Looked that way to me too when he pointed it out.

    The stickling point with Denver is they are violating the constitutional right of Coloradans with their open carry ban, their law makes the statute granted CCW a greater "right" than the constitutional one. Good arguement for Constitutional Carry, supported by the law, and by current LEO attitudes.

    Of course, they may attempt to arrest & cite you anyway, a rash of unlawful arrests & detianments lately by police who don't know the law - which is a goo arguement to support statewide pre-emtpion because then there is one standard for all LEO in the state.
    Last edited by Saxxon; 08-09-2012 at 01:02 AM.

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    Regular Member M-Taliesin's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Saxxon View Post
    Denver has a ban on open carry, and a ban on concealed carry. Both are pre-empted by DENVER law if you have a valid CCW. Meaning, you can legally open carry in Denver if you have a CCW.

    At least, that is how the law reads going over it with a professional recently. Looked that way to me too when he pointed it out.

    The stickling point with Denver is they are violating the constitutional right of Coloradans with their open carry ban, their law makes the statute granted CCW a greater "right" than the constitutional one. Good arguement for Constitutional Carry, supported by the law, and by current LEO attitudes.

    Of course, they may attempt to arrest & cite you anyway, a rash of unlawful arrests & detianments lately by police who don't know the law - which is a goo arguement to support statewide pre-emtpion because then there is one standard for all LEO in the state.
    Howdy Saxxon!
    I haven't seen anything in Colorado Revised Statutes or the Meyer's decision to indicate that anybody can open carry in Denver, whether or not they have a permit. Concealed carry is permitted, but only with a permit. Open carry is not allowed and is the reason why Denver is currently embroiled in a suit against Denver.
    see:
    http://forum.opencarry.org/forums/sh...-CO)-MSJ-Filed
    and:
    http://forum.opencarry.org/forums/sh...Appeals-Thread

    The whole crux of the case has to do with denial of the right of a person from another state who holds a non-resident Utah concealed carry permit while in Denver as Denver does not recognize a non-resident concealed carry permit. Because Denver also forbids open carry, the suit basically seems to claim that the citizen's right to carry a sidearm for lawful self defense has been completely infringed.

    If you know of something that allows open carry for those who have a CCW permit in Denver, I'd really like to see a citation for that.
    It is the sort of information that we should all know about. I don't think there is anything to indicate OC is allowed in Denver under any circumstance, but would take great delight in learning I may be mistaken!

    Blessings,
    M-Taliesin

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    I don't have the listing here, but I think you will find it soon enough. The section has several clauses, the first bans one form of carry (a), the second bans the other (b). Then there are 2-3 clauses and at the bottom the last clause states that (a) & (b) are invalid if the person has a CCW recognized by the state (or statewise CCW, again I don't recall the entire text).

    Again, that is how the law reads, how Denver enforces it is another matter. They may still go the whole nine on a CCW holder open carrying; however having seen the law as written, sans something else - it should be a loser for them under their own statutes apart from state law.

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    Regular Member M-Taliesin's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Saxxon View Post
    I don't have the listing here, but I think you will find it soon enough. The section has several clauses, the first bans one form of carry (a), the second bans the other (b). Then there are 2-3 clauses and at the bottom the last clause states that (a) & (b) are invalid if the person has a CCW recognized by the state (or statewise CCW, again I don't recall the entire text).

    Again, that is how the law reads, how Denver enforces it is another matter. They may still go the whole nine on a CCW holder open carrying; however having seen the law as written, sans something else - it should be a loser for them under their own statutes apart from state law.
    -----------------------
    Howdy Again!
    That doesn't give much to go on, and I surely won't pin anything on any law I can't cite by number or quote pretty much verbatim. I believe that for most people, open carrying in Denver is ill-advised to an extreme. When (and if) I might be confronted, because I tend to OC in Denver territory, I can quickly pull the information I need to quote precisely what the law states - exactly the number of the law, the language of the law, and put an errant officer on defense when they are unable to articulate a specific law that I've violated.

    I have no wish to be critical of anybody else on the forum, and that is not the intent of what follows, but serves as an example of what I'm referring to.
    Let us pretend your conversation with me was in the capacity of law abiding citizen (me) and you are the contacting officer. You've seen me open carry in Denver, and decide to make contact because you 'know' open carry to be illegal. You make contact and refer to a specific municipal code that you believe I've violated. But I counter with:
    DRMC 38-117(f)(2) which reads "while traveling into or through the city to or from another jurisdiction, regardless of the number of times the person stops in the city or the other jurisdiction" is in conflict with state law and is preempted by state law. If you will review the Meyers decision, 10th circuit court, you'll see that I am within my rights. Now the cop who claims I am in violation of the law looks feeble and foolish for attempting to hassle a citizen who can articulate the law, while unable to do so as a law enforcement officer. They now are confronted with the very real possibility that they may be on the wrong end of such transaction.

    Using the incident in Colorado Springs as another example, her is how it may otherwise have gone:
    The officers state what the law is (whether correctly or incorrectly) and I ask them to cite reference. Unable to provide a specific reference, I fire back with my own insight as to what the law states:
    "I respect your opinion officer, but if you will just check CRS 29-11.7-103 and 29-11.7-101, you will see readily see that your local ordinances are preempted by the State of Colorado and supported by the Meyer's decision." You may get some "Ah, another curbside lawyer" type cracks from the cops, but trust me, they'll suddenly have massive doubts about their own position, especially when they are not able to articulate what law you're breaking. They have their cheat sheet, but if they look at the language of the Colorado Revised Statutes I've quoted, they are on defense, and real uncertain about their own position. Once again, the cop who claims I am in violation of the law looks feeble and foolish for attempting to hassle a citizen who can articulate the law, when they are unable to do so as a law enforcement officer. Just to add fuel to the fire, I will reference the suit filed against the City of Loveland by Billy as another evidence to their wrongful, and illegal, detention of a law abiding citizen.

    Some have thought that I've been a little hard on newcomers to our forum because I really stress knowing the language of preemption. It isn't my intention to be hard on anybody, ever, except when pushed in the wrong direction by an officer who is sworn to uphold the constitution, but is behaving in a manner contrary to the law when confronting me. The best defense is a strong offense. When a cop tries to play a bad hand, it is vital that the bluff gets called out, and your own aces drop to the table in front of his wondering eyes. The time to articulate the law to an officer who has no earthly idea what the law says, is at the scene and before the handcuffs come out.
    So yes, I may be hard on newcomers because their liberty may depend on being better educated on laws relevant to open carry and their ability to turn back a challenge and come out on the winning side. Throwing inappropriate language at them is not at all helpful, F-bombs merely make the speaker look bad, whereas a clearly spoken, unambiguous articulation of specific references under law can be devastating, especially where a large number of witnesses can back the demeanor of the OC'er and his ability to offer legal references contrasted/compared to the inability of LEOs to do likewise. They come off looking foolish and feeble.

    It is as vital to know the law as it is to know the 4 basic rules of safe pistol handling.
    You cannot truly be a safe carrier if you cannot defend against an unlawful arrest.
    I have pounded on the subject of preemption pretty heavy in the last couple of weeks, because that's where most carriers who get into trouble fall short. They cannot cite the law of preemption when confronted by an officer who is attempting to arrest them on bad information.
    And do not spend a great deal of time telling the cops anything at all.
    Anything you say can, and likely will, be used against you.
    They are there to make an arrest, not to chit-chat with a law abiding citizen.
    When they are unable to quote you on anything apart from your accurate statements as to the language of the law, and that's all you'll say to them, they end up looking bad in front of a city attorney, their own chain of command, and worst of all, in front of a judge! Judges don't much appreciate foolish cases being thrown into his courtroom, when their dockets are usually full enough with legitimate cases. No cop wants to be dressed down by an angry judge.

    I've pounded the language of preemption on this forum hard enough that it has become something of an inside joke, where certain folks will gently jibe about my preaching the language found in relevant CRS. What needs to be understood is that it is of vital importance that an OC'er can clearly articulate what the law says and reference the relevant language when needed. We carry handguns for our own legitimate self defense, but that sidearm lacks ammunition when the carrier hasn't loaded knowledge of the law along with a full magazine.

    Thanks for a terrific discussion.
    Blessings,
    M-Taliesin
    Last edited by M-Taliesin; 08-09-2012 at 08:04 AM.

  23. #23
    Regular Member M-Taliesin's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Bellum_Intus View Post
    There ya go... =)

    --Rob
    Howdy Rob!
    I subbed up to your YT channel. You have a couple of pretty good viddies on that thing.

    I am still thinking we ought to do a series of videos on OC in Colorado, and have them available at the top of our forum with stickies so anybody with a question on a specific topic can simply watch a vid. What do you think of that notion?

    Blessings,
    M-Taliesin

  24. #24
    Regular Member Bellum_Intus's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by M-Taliesin View Post
    Howdy Rob!
    I subbed up to your YT channel. You have a couple of pretty good viddies on that thing.

    I am still thinking we ought to do a series of videos on OC in Colorado, and have them available at the top of our forum with stickies so anybody with a question on a specific topic can simply watch a vid. What do you think of that notion?

    Blessings,
    M-Taliesin
    I'm game.. =)

    Once I get my training stuff going, I'll be doing more videos as well..
    I can do some OC Q&A as well, I plan on adding OC to the CHP classes I'm developing now.

    I've got a busy rest of the Month.. P.O.S.T handgun qualification is Sunday, then HG102 Qualification on the 18th, and my NRA400 class on the 24/25th.. ugh..
    Seems now that I'm teaching, I'm taking WAY too many classes haha!

    -Rob
    Kenaz Tactical Group

    "They who can give up essential liberty to obtain a little temporary safety, deserve neither liberty nor safety." - Benjamin Franklin

    "Socialist governments traditionally do make a financial mess. They [socialists] always run out of other people's money. It's quite a characteristic of them."
    --Margaret Thatcher

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