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D.C. man orders TV, receives assault rifle

Freedom1Man

Freedom1Man

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Greater Eastside Washington
Grapeshot said:
:banghead: Ya did good up to that point.

Stealing/theft from any business hurts everyone - it drives up the cost of doing business.
Click to expand...

I said corporation, not a business.

The corporate privilege is being able to steal from citizens, business, banks, etc without recourse.

If I was approved for the creation of a corporation I could run up millions in debt, pay my self a good salary, pollute the ground water, and then bankrupt and end the corporation then I personally would have no liability. It was the corporation who did all the wrong doing after all.

Corporations are not all businesses. I view a non-incorporated business as an extension of my fellow citizen. So stealing from a corporation is not the same a stealing from a business. Besides UPS is a criminal enterprise that has engaged in extortion, fraud, conversion, discrimination, and those are just the ones I can think of off the top of my head.

If a non-incorporated business did those things I could get a remedy in the court and make the individual responsible pay. In a corporation you have to go up against a monster who had all sorts of money and does not truly exist. Corporations hurt people more than petty criminals do. Hell you can often shoot a criminal if they are in the act. But how do you stop a corporation?
 
Grapeshot

Grapeshot

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Freedom1Man said:
I said corporation, not a business.

The corporate privilege is being able to steal from citizens, business, banks, etc without recourse.

If I was approved for the creation of a corporation I could run up millions in debt, pay my self a good salary, pollute the ground water, and then bankrupt and end the corporation then I personally would have no liability. It was the corporation who did all the wrong doing after all.

Corporations are not all businesses. I view a non-incorporated business as an extension of my fellow citizen. So stealing from a corporation is not the same a stealing from a business. Besides UPS is a criminal enterprise that has engaged in extortion, fraud, conversion, discrimination, and those are just the ones I can think of off the top of my head.

If a non-incorporated business did those things I could get a remedy in the court and make the individual responsible pay. In a corporation you have to go up against a monster who had all sorts of money and does not truly exist. Corporations hurt people more than petty criminals do. Hell you can often shoot a criminal if they are in the act. But how do you stop a corporation?
Click to expand...

You argue a fine line w/o merit here. Stealing or taking what is not ours is still theft, not withstanding any personal spin.

WE ADVOCATE FOR THE 'LAW-ABIDING' ONLY: Posts advocating illegal acts of any kind are NOT welcome here. Even if you feel that a law is unconstitutional we do not break it, we repeal it or defeat it in the courts.
http://forum.opencarry.org/forums/misc.php?do=showrules
 
davidmcbeth

davidmcbeth

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earth's crust
09jisaac said:
It would be difficult to try to mail it back in a city as repressive as DC. Here in Kentucky, I can mail firearms to FFLs every day.
Click to expand...

If you are not an ffl and are mailing a functional handgun to an ffl, then you are breaking postal regulations. A non-ffl can ship a handgun that needs repair.

Of course, there is no paperwork required .. so if you PO lets you do this then your chances of running into an issue are small; but if the package opens and a functional handgun is discovered, expect deep doo doo.
 
Freedom1Man

Freedom1Man

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Grapeshot said:
You argue a fine line w/o merit here. Stealing or taking what is not ours is still theft, not withstanding any personal spin.

WE ADVOCATE FOR THE 'LAW-ABIDING' ONLY: Posts advocating illegal acts of any kind are NOT welcome here. Even if you feel that a law is unconstitutional we do not break it, we repeal it or defeat it in the courts.
http://forum.opencarry.org/forums/misc.php?do=showrules
Click to expand...

Poor choice of words I will concede that.

The real argument is, if someone delivers merchandise to you that you did not ask for, one could argue that it was a gift and not theft at all.

You order an XBOX 360, for example, you ordered it and 2 games. When you get the package it's there with the 2 games you ordered plus 5 other games. Is it really theft to keep the 5 other games? I would think that maybe they were a bonus ordering gift. I had a problem with a bad order from a parts company once they shipped me the wrong order and then wanted me to jump through hoops to return the wrong order. I almost kept it because they didn't want to admit to or fix their screw up.

Maybe I order an XBOX and get a Honda Generator on my doorstep instead. Is that really theft? Did I go out and steal it? No. Might it have been a gift? Sure.

Rifle shows up at my door, if there is no invoice proving it was a mix up then it's a gift. If there is an invoice then I will assist in helping it get to it's legal and proper owner.

Yes, theft is wrong, but I don't really believe you can steal from a corporation because it is not real. It's like stealing from Santa Clause, the Easter Bunny, or the Tooth Fairy. It cannot be done they are not real.
 
Freedom1Man

Freedom1Man

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davidmcbeth said:
If you are not an ffl and are mailing a functional handgun to an ffl, then you are breaking postal regulations. A non-ffl can ship a handgun that needs repair.

Of course, there is no paperwork required .. so if you PO lets you do this then your chances of running into an issue are small; but if the package opens and a functional handgun is discovered, expect deep doo doo.
Click to expand...

It was UPS not the PO.
 
davidmcbeth

davidmcbeth

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Freedom1Man said:
It was UPS not the PO.
Click to expand...

UPS have their own rules ... should have specified ... from UPS site:

Special Procedures for Shipping Firearms
Use These UPS Services for Your Firearm Shipment
UPS accepts packages containing firearms (as defined by Title 18, Chapter 44, and Title 26, Chapter 53 of the United States Code) for transportation only (a) between licensed importers, licensed manufacturers, licensed dealers, and licensed collectors (as defined in Title 18, Chapter 44 of the United States Code), and government agencies and (b) where not otherwise prohibited by federal, state or local law (i) from an individual to a licensed importer, licensed manufacturer, licensed dealer, or licensed collector; and (ii) from a licensed importer, licensed manufacturer, licensed dealer, or licensed collector to an individual. The shipper must comply with and must ensure that each shipment complies with all federal, state and local laws applicable to the shipper, recipient, and package.

http://www.ups.com/content/us/en/resources/ship/packaging/guidelines/firearms.html
 
P

PistolPackingMomma

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1,884
Location
SC
Freedom1Man said:
Poor choice of words I will concede that.

The real argument is, if someone delivers merchandise to you that you did not ask for, one could argue that it was a gift and not theft at all.

You order an XBOX 360, for example, you ordered it and 2 games. When you get the package it's there with the 2 games you ordered plus 5 other games. Is it really theft to keep the 5 other games? I would think that maybe they were a bonus ordering gift. I had a problem with a bad order from a parts company once they shipped me the wrong order and then wanted me to jump through hoops to return the wrong order. I almost kept it because they didn't want to admit to or fix their screw up.

Maybe I order an XBOX and get a Honda Generator on my doorstep instead. Is that really theft? Did I go out and steal it? No. Might it have been a gift? Sure.

Rifle shows up at my door, if there is no invoice proving it was a mix up then it's a gift. If there is an invoice then I will assist in helping it get to it's legal and proper owner.

Yes, theft is wrong, but I don't really believe you can steal from a corporation because it is not real. It's like stealing from Santa Clause, the Easter Bunny, or the Tooth Fairy. It cannot be done they are not real.
Click to expand...

So, if I understand you, it's not stealing because there is no actual person to whom the property belongs?

Actually, I would say that there could be a victim in your scenario. The person who ordered from the corporation. They did not receive their order because you kept what was wrongly delivered to you. Maybe they'll be fortunate enough that the company will own up to their mistake and rectify the issue, but maybe they'll screw the customer over. It's easier to blame a non physical entity rather than the moral fiber of your person.
 
Grapeshot

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Freedom1Man said:
Poor choice of words I will concede that.

The real argument is, if someone delivers merchandise to you that you did not ask for, one could argue that it was a gift and not theft at all.

You order an XBOX 360, for example, you ordered it and 2 games. When you get the package it's there with the 2 games you ordered plus 5 other games. Is it really theft to keep the 5 other games? I would think that maybe they were a bonus ordering gift. I had a problem with a bad order from a parts company once they shipped me the wrong order and then wanted me to jump through hoops to return the wrong order. I almost kept it because they didn't want to admit to or fix their screw up.

Maybe I order an XBOX and get a Honda Generator on my doorstep instead. Is that really theft? Did I go out and steal it? No. Might it have been a gift? Sure.

Rifle shows up at my door, if there is no invoice proving it was a mix up then it's a gift. If there is an invoice then I will assist in helping it get to it's legal and proper owner.

Yes, theft is wrong, but I don't really believe you can steal from a corporation because it is not real. It's like stealing from Santa Clause, the Easter Bunny, or the Tooth Fairy. It cannot be done they are not real.
Click to expand...

Agree that unordered merchandise does not have to be returned
http://www.21tsc.army.mil/Aerja/LegalAssist/Areas-Consumer Protection/Unordered.html

Much goes to the intent of the supplier IMHO. If they shipped in good faith and will pay expenses involved i returning, why would you not be cooperative?

Corporate entities are generally recognized as legal "beings" - more so than the Easter Bunny who has to my knowledge never sued anybody. If you think they are not real enough for these purposes, the defame them or damage their reputation materially. I will wait.
 
Freedom1Man

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PistolPackingMomma said:
So, if I understand you, it's not stealing because there is no actual person to whom the property belongs?

Actually, I would say that there could be a victim in your scenario. The person who ordered from the corporation. They did not receive their order because you kept what was wrongly delivered to you. Maybe they'll be fortunate enough that the company will own up to their mistake and rectify the issue, but maybe they'll screw the customer over. It's easier to blame a non physical entity rather than the moral fiber of your person.
Click to expand...

I know that I personally got that order shipped back. Those idiots used a, in my opinion, a piss poor shipping company and so I had to call and tell them to pick up the bloody package that it had been sitting on my porch waiting for them to pick it up since before they delivered the corrected order.

As for the rest I interested in seeing how it would play out in court.

The shipper is liable for getting the correct shipment out period, individual or corporation. It is the shipper's responsibility to make sure they put the correct items into each package and put the address given to them on it. I personally have returned wrong shipments. I am simply pointing out that doing what is legal is not always doing what it right and doing what is right is not always legal.
 
twoskinsonemanns

twoskinsonemanns

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Apr 12, 2012
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WV
davidmcbeth said:
If you are not an ffl and are mailing a functional handgun to an ffl, then you are breaking postal regulations. A non-ffl can ship a handgun that needs repair.

Of course, there is no paperwork required .. so if you PO lets you do this then your chances of running into an issue are small; but if the package opens and a functional handgun is discovered, expect deep doo doo.
Click to expand...

First can you site the regulation? I'm interested.

Also secondly the whole functional vs handgun needing repair is silly. I've shipped functioning handguns that I considered needing repair. It's an indistinguishable line. Is a handgun that jams 1 out 50 rounds functional or needing repair. What about one that has some finish wearing prematurely going back for repair?
 
jbone

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WA
I wonder, would it have been against the law for him to have called the FFL, and say hey come get your guns, providing they were a DC FFL. Would the guns sitting there waiting for the cops to come and get have been anymore illegal in the possession, then sitting and waiting for the owner to pick up?
 
Last edited:
KBCraig

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WOD said:
Seriously? A gun worth 2k... and this guy turns it in? Especially after it was just left outside his door... If I didn't sign for it, who can prove that I received it?
Click to expand...
And what are you going to do with it?

Mere possession is illegal in DC. You couldn't legally sell it, except through an FFL in another state, and that FFL will record your name, address, and DL number.

The shipper is going to report it to the ATF as stolen in transit, so the gun will be listed on every police database in the country, and have your name attached to it via the records of the dealer you sold it to or transferred it through.

Not a good idea.
 
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