A PERFECT example of why to carry tonight.

I go to my local gas station/corner store tonight to pick up some water, bread etc. (too lazy to drive all the way into town).
I parked just outside the front door- 1st spot. When Im leaving, a family of 6 (I assumed they are family, anyway) walk in.
Before I even get to the car, there's some commotion going on inside between them. The older man, and woman yelling at and shoving one another.
I shake my head, and begin to get into my car.
(Mistake #1, I had left the windows down in the car, and took my eyes off the craziness inside while I got in, and put my bag of stuff on the passenger seat).
Next thing I know, the guy from inside the store is reaching in through my window, grabbing my throat, and screaming hes going to f-ing kill me!
All I need to hear- out comes the .45 -straight to his face, and a warning to let go, and step off NOW.

A kid, I'm guessing his- mid/late teens, comes running up, grabs the guy from behind and begins pulling him off. The kid tells me- "hes not after you, he's just confused-ill take him home". I said that would be a very very wise decision.
He gets the guy off of me, and away from the car, maybe 8-10 ft. And the guy shrugs the kid off, and immediately charges at another car in the lot, and does the same thing to that car's driver, who hadnt gotten out yet.
I shouted at the kid to get his arse under control NOW. I left the "or else" to his interpretations...

So, as I'm keeping an eye on this, and making sure this kid has this clown under control, and walking to their car- when my PASSENGER door opens.
Im like WHAT IN THE F !!is going ON HERE???? - I turn around, and the woman this guy had been shouting/shoving in the store is trying to climb into my passenger seat.

I said get the F OUT OF MY CAR NOW. She just looks at me like IM nuts??? And says "who the f are u??" . Im holding a .45 and shes asking me WHO AM I???
At this point, one of the other "women" of this lot comes up and tells her she's in the wrong car. The lady says "oh" and gets out.
I ask the other lady, what the fc is WRONG with these folks? She just shrugs and says "they're confused". and they walk off.

All this in under-maybe -3 minutes or so. I waited around a sec to make sure all these whackaloons had left, then went back into the store, and asked them wtf.
They said the family was a bunch of meth-heads that lived in a trailer nearby. That every time they come to the store, something like this happens..., but that this was the craziest they'd seen of them.. I asked if maybe I had passed through the Twilight Zone, and ended up in the Wal Mart..

Now, apart from my mistakes I admit to earlier (poor SA/windows down) for which Im already berating myself, there are 3 concerns.

1) there was no build-up to this. no exchange of words, argument, etc, with these folks. dont know em, never seen em before this happened-no reason to have even remotely anticipated this.

2) they did not appear -when I 1st saw them, in passing, on my way out of the store- to be the slightest threat to anyone, other than looking odd and behaving oddly with each other, once they got inside the store. the old guy looked to be about mid-60's. the older lady maybe a few yrs younger. they looked just like any other bunch of toothless, inbred, trailer-dwelling, domestic-beer swilling, trailer- hicks that infest the area.
for all I knew (not that I considered it any of my biz, at the time) their little spat inside the store was over their being late home and missing some episode of WWF or a Nascar event on t.v or something.

3) Neither of these folks, when facing a .45 auto, so much as blinked. Didnt even seem to notice, or register their peril in the slightest... THAT rattled me a bit, I'll admit. Usually when some jackass gets a .45 shoved in his mouth, he re-considers his/her course of action. This guy? nothing. zip. I may as well have been whistling at him. Had that kid not arrived, I fear I may have had to pull the trigger on the old guy, and to be honest, am Second-guessing my hesitation to have done so. He had his hand around my throat, screaming "IM GOING TO FNG KILL YOU", and armed or not, elderly or not, I gotta think I'd have been within my rights to spray his meth-adled brains all over that parking lot.

For what does one consider, when-armed, and able to try to deter a potential or even a real threat, and that deterrent fails, entirely? I could easily have found myself in a Zimmerman situation, begin cruxified in the media for gunning down an elderly, "confused" and un-armed man.

If I didn't know you, I'd say this came from your imagination. But considering that we've had some dealings I'm taking your story at face value. Glad to hear that you're alright. Were the police contacted at all?

First thing I did was look at the post count and check the history. :uhoh:

Yep, that kind of thing is extraordinary.

Assault and battery plus a raft of other potentials. Having drawn my gun, there is absolutely no way I'm not making that call, none, nada. Trust the OP made the call.

j4l said:

...3) Neither of these folks, when facing a .45 auto, so much as blinked. ...

Click to expand...

That's the scary part. It's like rabid rampant pit bulls running the street on the attack. They have no perception of your ability/readiness to protect yourself until you pull the trigger. This is going to become more common.

thebigsd said:

If I didn't know you, I'd say this came from your imagination. But considering that we've had some dealings I'm taking your story at face value. Glad to hear that you're alright. Were the police contacted at all?

Click to expand...

Nah, no cops. They'd cleared out, and left, back to whatever hole such whackaloons come out of. In any even, avg. response time for cops all the way out here would have been an hour or more, if they'd even bothered to come out at all.
And I only wish I COULD have imagined this, instead. It wasnt a situation I sought, or cared to be in, for sure.
I made my own goofs on this- SA/Windows down, door un-locked- but, I had barely gotten into the car when this all began. Literally came at me that quick, and without warning. One sec Im sitting down in the car, and getting ready to put my keys in the ignition, next second I have some yahoo's hand around my throat. Not good. Lesson-learned.

Whether the Meth angle is true or not, or just the clerk's gossip/assumption, I've not the foggiest idea. The folks seemed to be of an age where that is less likely, but who-knows, these days?
Id thought -after I got home-possibly dementia/alzheimer's? But then, no, I've seen dementia patients before, when aggitated, even aggressive, but never actually seen one try anything like this.

j4l said:

...then went back into the store, and asked them wtf.
They said the family was a bunch of meth-heads that lived in a trailer nearby. That every time they come to the store, something like this happens......

Click to expand...

Say again why you didn't file a police report.

The clerk can corroborate your story and we need a paper trail to fall back on when they keep doing this.

THIS IS THE JOB OF THE POLICE!!!

Protecting your ass is your job. Filing the paperwork and keeping track of the trends of these a-holes is what the cops are for. Please let them do their job.

Your mistake was believing there was no lead-up to the rodeo. Most times there are signs, but we tend to ignore them for all sorts of reasons.

Hint #1 -

When Im leaving, a family of 6 (I assumed they are family, anyway) walk in.

Click to expand...

Your description makes my spidey-sense tingle to the possibility that your spidey sense was tingling at this point. There was "something" about the group that caused you to notice them, but since you could not put your finger on prescisely what it was you let it pass. Not saying this warranted anything more than keeping your eyes and ears open, but you did not.

Hint #2 -

Before I even get to the car, there's some commotion going on inside between them. The older man, and woman yelling at and shoving one another. I shake my head, and begin to get into my car.

Click to expand...

Now there is cause for you to move from Pale Yellow all the way up to Harvest Moon Orange. Something un-right is going on. What are you gonna do? What's your plan? How will you execute it? It does not need to be a great plan, and it does not need a lot of detail. But you need to know what the plan is.

Hint #3 -

and took my eyes off the craziness inside

Click to expand...

Oh, dear sweeet and fluffy shivering Shiva! Maybe not every alarm bell you possessed was going off - perhaps it was just some of the smaller ones like little kids used to have on tricycles back when there were tricycles. But you took your eyes off the craziness inside!

Now, there is no way that you could know, and I'll be willing to bet that your prior experience did not include what did happen as being high up on the list of possibilities. But two folks inside the store were acting a bit beyond Not Right[SUP]TM[/SUP]. Your plan might have, by that point, included a decision about whether or not to intervene if the pushing went any further, or if it spilled over onto the cashier. OK, I do not know what might have been in your plan, but that is what would have been in mine - a decision of what to do. I'm no hero and not physically capable of rolling on the ground with a three-year old let alone a grown crazy person. But , or perhaps therefore, I plan what I might do when craziness gets around me.

And a comment:

Neither of these folks, when facing a .45 auto, so much as blinked. Didnt even seem to notice, or register their peril in the slightest... THAT rattled me a bit .... I fear I may have had to pull the trigger on the old guy, and to be honest, am Second-guessing my hesitation to have done so.

Click to expand...

I have something of a reputation on OCDO for calling people out for what I refere to as blood-lust - wanting to shoot someone over something. Most of the time the blood-lust seems to come from seeing shooting someone as the first, last, and only solution to the situation. It sounds as if you were looking for any alternative to shooting, but came up empty. And that put you in your predicament. I'm going to go way out on a limb and guess that you have never sat down with yourself and discussed whether or not you really, truely are willing to kill another human being and take the consequences of trying to prove that it was excusable/justified. I have no idea how tightly the guy's hands were wrapped around your neck, or if you were merely startled as opposed to being in actual apprehension of imminent death or serious bodily injury. But if your decision to pull your gun was based on the latter instead of the former, then in my humble and very carefully considered opinion you should have shot the SOB right between the running lights. That's my subtle, socially-appropriate way of saying that if you pull it you need to be willing to shoot it. That gun on your side is not a magic talisman. You learned that. You learned that some folks will not/canot even comprehend that there is a gun pointed right at them, or that having a gun pointed right at tem means anything special. That gun on your side is a tool and no tool I know of works by just showing it to the work at hand.

Again, I'm in no way saying you absolutely, positively ought to have shot the guy. I'm saying that if your plan was just to show him the business end of your gun in the hopes of scaring him off of you, then your plan was weak.

As for your decision not to call the police - you know the situation better that I do. I will take your word without question that even if you had waited for the local cop to finally get across the county to you there was not much good that it would have done. Folks from less rural areas sometimes do not realize that there are parts of the nation that are still pretty much "frontier". I hope you understand that they seem to be on your side and seem to be trying to figure out how to stop these crazy people from being crazy in public ny more.

Bottom line? You came out OK. And I'll bet you will do better if there is ever a next time when life suddenly upsets your scheduled activities.

stay safe.

..^ ^ ^ ^ ^^
Yep, he talks that way - makes a hellova lot of sense too, suggest rereading it for the full effect.

Drawing your gun when you think you might need it, but decide you don't creates all kinds of problems - not the least of which is how do you use that hand (the one holding the gun) now? Maybe a wrist strike with your funny shaped hammer.

Had your hands remained empty, there are defensive reactions that even Skid can do (he knows them) swinging arm over & down or dbl. elbow strike - both involved NOT thinking wtf, just doing immediately, now, in less time than it took you to read this.

OK, you survived this and don't need antibiotics so all has ended and well. Now go learn the two extremely simple reactions mentioned - don't look them up on a video.......learn them.

OP you had a run in with Gypsies, this is their MO to create mass confusion while they steal.

skidmark said:

Your mistake was believing there was no lead-up to the rodeo. Most times there are signs, but we tend to ignore them for all sorts of reasons.

Hint #1 -
Your description makes my spidey-sense tingle to the possibility that your spidey sense was tingling at this point. There was "something" about the group that caused you to notice them, but since you could not put your finger on prescisely what it was you let it pass. Not saying this warranted anything more than keeping your eyes and ears open, but you did not.

Hint #2 -

Now there is cause for you to move from Pale Yellow all the way up to Harvest Moon Orange. Something un-right is going on. What are you gonna do? What's your plan? How will you execute it? It does not need to be a great plan, and it does not need a lot of detail. But you need to know what the plan is.

Hint #3 -

Oh, dear sweeet and fluffy shivering Shiva! Maybe not every alarm bell you possessed was going off - perhaps it was just some of the smaller ones like little kids used to have on tricycles back when there were tricycles. But you took your eyes off the craziness inside!

Now, there is no way that you could know, and I'll be willing to bet that your prior experience did not include what did happen as being high up on the list of possibilities. But two folks inside the store were acting a bit beyond Not Right[SUP]TM[/SUP]. Your plan might have, by that point, included a decision about whether or not to intervene if the pushing went any further, or if it spilled over onto the cashier. OK, I do not know what might have been in your plan, but that is what would have been in mine - a decision of what to do. I'm no hero and not physically capable of rolling on the ground with a three-year old let alone a grown crazy person. But , or perhaps therefore, I plan what I might do when craziness gets around me.

And a comment:

I have something of a reputation on OCDO for calling people out for what I refere to as blood-lust - wanting to shoot someone over something. Most of the time the blood-lust seems to come from seeing shooting someone as the first, last, and only solution to the situation. It sounds as if you were looking for any alternative to shooting, but came up empty. And that put you in your predicament. I'm going to go way out on a limb and guess that you have never sat down with yourself and discussed whether or not you really, truely are willing to kill another human being and take the consequences of trying to prove that it was excusable/justified. I have no idea how tightly the guy's hands were wrapped around your neck, or if you were merely startled as opposed to being in actual apprehension of imminent death or serious bodily injury. But if your decision to pull your gun was based on the latter instead of the former, then in my humble and very carefully considered opinion you should have shot the SOB right between the running lights. That's my subtle, socially-appropriate way of saying that if you pull it you need to be willing to shoot it. That gun on your side is not a magic talisman. You learned that. You learned that some folks will not/canot even comprehend that there is a gun pointed right at them, or that having a gun pointed right at tem means anything special. That gun on your side is a tool and no tool I know of works by just showing it to the work at hand.

Again, I'm in no way saying you absolutely, positively ought to have shot the guy. I'm saying that if your plan was just to show him the business end of your gun in the hopes of scaring him off of you, then your plan was weak.

As for your decision not to call the police - you know the situation better that I do. I will take your word without question that even if you had waited for the local cop to finally get across the county to you there was not much good that it would have done. Folks from less rural areas sometimes do not realize that there are parts of the nation that are still pretty much "frontier". I hope you understand that they seem to be on your side and seem to be trying to figure out how to stop these crazy people from being crazy in public ny more.

Bottom line? You came out OK. And I'll bet you will do better if there is ever a next time when life suddenly upsets your scheduled activities.

stay safe.

Click to expand...

I dont entirely disagree with most of the above at all. I messed up, from a SA stand-point, big time.
I had indeed seen something amiss with this lot as they entered- but made the mistake of shrugging it off as typical, obnoxious hicks-not at all uncommon out here, esp. @ that little store. When they started whatever little drama they had inside, I shrugged that off as nona mah bidnezz.BUT, I did intend, once I had gotten to the car, to stay put in the car for a moment, and make sure it didnt turn into something worse INSIDE the store. I was just going to keep an eye out, mainly for the clerk, who was alone there at night.

But that one second of eyes-off-the-target, and.. you have my other goof-up-compounded by my "windows-down/doors un-locked" mistake. Something one who lived in NYC for 15 yrs should know better than to do.
But, I've gotten way lax, living out here. Street instincts not quiet as sharp these days, I think?

Another big mistake was judging-the-book. An assumption that these little old hicks and their ratty-looking folks with them, gave the appearance of being no potential, actual threat to anyone. One older guy, 4 older ladies, and 2 scrawny kids. Oddball or not- they just did NOT give one the urge to reach for a side-arm at that point. But- eyes-off for a mere second- and bam! Situation changes on you quick.

As to the potential use of the pistol, had I needed to.. I've had to before, both on the street, and in the Army. No issues there. Was just that ( -) close to pulling that trigger,until that kid ran up and grabbed the guy, and pulled him off. Had the kid not come over? Bang! there'd have been a dead old, meth-head-or nutbar, and me facing the music for it.
No, I dont go seeking such situations, and no, I dont particularly care to shoot someone unless I just have no other choice. If I can work out some means of extracting myself from a situation without needing to pull the trigger, great, I'll take it, tyvm.

As to defense against this-wasnt a lot of room to move about, once this guy had my throat. My right arm was free, my left was under his arm that reached in through the window. Tight spot, with the door right up against my left arm/shoulder, steering-wheel to my front.. just not much room, and little to no leverage to be gained from that position. But you can bet I'll be working out some scenarios/techniques for that position/situation with a Krav Maga buddy in town,now.
Had I the time to have put the keys in the ignition and started the car, Id have just put it in reverse and floored it, and dragged him loose.
But, as this happened, I had dropped the keys (right hand) and they'd fallen to the floor-boards @ my feet. So that was out.
Pull the door handle, and shove it open, perhaps? His full weight was smack up against the outside of the door, blocking that option.

Believe me, Ill be analyzing the crap out of this one, for some time.

Live and learn, right? Fortunately you have that option, so it was a good day.

MAC702 said:

That's the scary part. It's like rabid rampant pit bulls running the street on the attack. They have no perception of your ability/readiness to protect yourself until you pull the trigger. This is going to become more common.

Click to expand...

Depending on where you are in our country, it is far more common than most of us want to believe. Meth, "bath salts", and a horde of other mind-altering drugs. The people who are doing these things have absolutely no fear, most, while under the influence, have a strength you would not believe, and, from what local law enforcement has told me, are damn near impossible to stop even with multiple handgun rounds.

Scary? Bloody well terrifying!!!

>Story sounds rediculous to start
>verbally threatened "i'm going to kill you" DOESN'T SHOOT
>physically attacked by man who isn't phased by a gun, DOESN'T SHOOT
>Draws gun, DOESN'T SHOOT
>CLAIMS HE HAD THE DRAW ON THE FACE OF THE MAN WHO WAS GRABBING, NOT HIS ARM, NOT HIS SHIRT, BUT HIS THROAT DOESN'T SHOOT
>Strange person hops in car after being physically attacked, DOESN'T SHOOT
>incident ends, DOESN'T CALL THE POLICE
>and it was posted by J4l.

Im like WHAT IN THE F !!is going ON HERE????

Click to expand...

^ My infant daughter could write a more convincing story.


3/10 best I can do, OP...

SFCRetired said:

Depending on where you are in our country, it is far more common than most of us want to believe. Meth, "bath salts", and a horde of other mind-altering drugs. The people who are doing these things have absolutely no fear, most, while under the influence, have a strength you would not believe, and, from what local law enforcement has told me, are damn near impossible to stop even with multiple handgun rounds.

Scary? Bloody well terrifying!!!

Click to expand...

Indeed. One of the thousand things that flashed through my mind during this -when he just didnt even blink a bit-(along with WTF, who IS this guy, WHY is he doing this to ME)
was that Zombie case in Miami- and I was rattled a bit @ that thought.

Been going over and over this crap, and I still cant place what, exactly, was wrong with that guy. AND with the guys' "wife" or whoever being not much different.. less violent, but just as out of it, at least.

I've worked in E/Rs and seen plenty of junkies on any number of things, Ive seen actual psychos have meltdowns and go violent, I've seen dementia patients get edgy/aggressive, and even a Khat -crazed Somali taking rounds and keep on coming, but this was just beyond strange-to me.
And then, on top of it all, you've got this thing going in the back of the head saying "nah, dont do him, he's just a crazed little old man and somethings just wrong with him" ya know?

I've seen meth-heads before,and this just didnt seem much like that at all. So I really am at a loss on this one.

Schlitz said:

>Story sounds rediculous to start
>verbally threatened "i'm going to kill you" DOESN'T SHOOT
>physically attacked by man who isn't phased by a gun, DOESN'T SHOOT
>Draws gun, DOESN'T SHOOT
>Strange person hops in car after being physically attacked, DOESN'T SHOOT
>incident ends, DOESN'T CALL THE POLICE
>posted by J4l.


^ My infant daughter could write a more convincing story.


3/10 best I can do, OP...

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Well, I suppose I could just go off half-cocked and start spraying lead everywhere-and panicking like a little girl, and then have u in here the next day second-guessing "why did u shoot that little, old, un-armed man"..

You do see now, why Im less than inclined to take serious the musings of a 12 yr old on summer break, no? Go sharpen your crayons, kid. Then come back in a few yrs and chat with the adults.

j4l said:

All I need to hear- out comes the .45 -straight to his face, and a warning to let go, and step off NOW.

Click to expand...

I suppose I could just go off half-cocked and start spraying lead everywhere-and panicking like a little girl

Click to expand...

If you have to "spray lead everywhere" at the point blank range you described in your tall tale, perhaps you shouldn't be carrying a firearm?

Go sharpen your crayons, kid.

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If you haven't noticed, name calling on the forum causes a major blow credability, not to mention stories that start off with something like, "SO THERE I WAS, AND I'm LIKE, ALL I NEAD TO HEAR WAS 'll KILL YOU' - OUT COMES MY .45 TO THE FACE."

And double posting to get a super high post count so maybe your tall tales will have some credability one day doesn't work.

Sorry guys, I don't buy it. 3.5/10, best I can do, and that's pushing it. Only because you are trying to defend this so hard and I can appreciate a good troll attempt.

Isn't there such a thing as giving the benefit of the doubt? Granted that there have been, and probably still are, posters on this forum whose veracity I would be inclined to doubt, I would still give them the benefit of the doubt on a story like this one.

Why? Because every single time I go out of my house, and I live in a fairly good part of town, I see the druggies and the drunks. They're not too hard to spot, either. Not to mention the mentally unbalanced who may or may not be on their meds. I have been caught in a situation, not like this one but still scary, where my situational awareness and reaction time sucked. It can happen to anyone.

From what I read, OP admitted his mistakes and, hopefully, learned from them and won't get caught out again. I will admit that I learned a few things from reading his account.

Schlitz said:

>Story sounds rediculous to start
>verbally threatened "i'm going to kill you" DOESN'T SHOOT
>physically attacked by man who isn't phased by a gun, DOESN'T SHOOT
>Draws gun, DOESN'T SHOOT
>CLAIMS HE HAD THE DRAW ON THE FACE OF THE MAN WHO WAS GRABBING, NOT HIS ARM, NOT HIS SHIRT, BUT HIS THROAT DOESN'T SHOOT
>Strange person hops in car after being physically attacked, DOESN'T SHOOT
>incident ends, DOESN'T CALL THE POLICE
>and it was posted by J4l.


^ My infant daughter could write a more convincing story.


3/10 best I can do, OP...

Click to expand...

The low scores always come from the Russian judge.

Schlitz said:

3/10 best I can do, OP...

Click to expand...

Draw without firing: -1.0
Aim/point without firing: -2.0
Non-imminent lethal threat: -2.0
Failure to retreat from threat: -1.0
Failure to use non-lethal force: -1.0

The judge from Nevada also scores a 3.0 after deductions.

OC for ME said:

The low scores always come from the Russian judge.

Click to expand...

Schlitz can believe whatever he chooses. Frankly,I find him to be a child, and 90% of his posts confirm that, completely. So, yes, absolutely , I will treat him as such-and one has nothing to do with the credibility of any post by anyone who does so.

His lack of maturity shows even more when suggesting one in my situation just automatically shoot the guy, rather than try to find another way of dealing with it, such as warn the person off, and give them a chance to reverse-course, first.
Anyway, Im hardly going to defend my statement to a 12 yr. old kid. And , KID, "kid" isnt name-calling. It's simply the most-accurate term by which to address you.
If he cant handle THAT at this point, he's really going to hate life when he gets into High School.