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Henderson handgun registration.

The Big Guy

Regular Member
Joined
Oct 20, 2009
Messages
1,966
Location
Waco, TX
I am getting ready to send the following to the Henderson City Attorney’s office. There are several ordinances on the books that need to be removed but I think the best shot is to take them on one at a time. I have done some research and it looks like this program is costing the city approximately 150K a year and not a single case can be pointed to that was solved by the use of this ordinance (In 58 years). If this can be removed then Henderson, like Boulder City, would be a registration free zone within Clark County.

Hopefully this one will not take a year to straighten out.

Comments?
TBG

Mr. Zentz
I have some questions regarding the City Ordinance below.

Henderson Municipal code 8.98.030:

It is unlawful for any person to own or have in his possession a gun, pistol, revolver or other firearm capable of being concealed without first having registered it with the chief of police.
(Ord. 67, § 3, 1954)


1. As this is still being enforced as shown by recent arrest records *, when did the City of Henderson stop registering concealable firearms in favor of Clark County registration?

2. As the ordinance clearly states the registration must be with the Chief of Police, and I am told by acting Captain Dane Mattoon that the Henderson Police keep no record of the “Blue Card” registration that they conduct on behalf of the county, that all registrations are forwarded to Metro, under what authority has the Chief abrogated his duty under this ordinance to the county?

3. As there is no means for registering with the Chief of Police as is called out in 8.98.030, how can this ordinance be enforced?


4. Under what authority as an incorporated city can the Henderson Police carry out Clark County registration? You may note that Boulder City has no requirement to register firearms and is therefore exempt under state law. Does Henderson have a code that allows their officers to enforce county ordinances as it does state law? If so, please provide the city code.


5. State preemption provides under SB-92 that a resident of this county who falls under registration will have 72 hours to comply. Those moving here have 60 days. The city was obligated under this provision to amend its ordinances. In addition to the above, how can 8.98.030 be valid as it has no provision for the grace period?

6. Please provide any written agreements between the City and METRO regarding implementation and enforcement of the county ordinance 12.04.110.

12.04.110 - Registration of pistols within seventy-two hours. Any resident of the county receiving title to a pistol, whether by purchase, gift, or any other transfer, and whether from a dealer or from any other person, shall, within seventy-two hours of such receipt, personally appear at the county sheriff's office, together with the pistol, for the purpose of registering the same with the sheriff. It shall be the duty of the sheriff to register the pistol, and he may, and is hereby authorized to cooperate in any manner he sees fit with other law enforcement agencies, and with licensed dealers, relative to registration of pistols, so that efficient registration shall be secured at minimum cost and duplication.

Thank you very much for your anticipated cooperation in answering these questions.

Regards



* Phinney, Darrell Blake, was arrested in Henderson on 05/21/12 for among other things 8.98.030 the Henderson code for unregistered concealable firearms.

* Watkins Iii, Robert Allen, was arrested in Henderson on 04/06/12 for among other things 8098.030 the Henderson code unregistered concealable firearms.
 
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MAC702

Campaign Veteran
Joined
Jul 31, 2011
Messages
6,331
Location
Nevada
I love it. I only noted a few punctuation errors, but they did not detract from the effective point of the letter. It would be very cool to turn on a few lights in the minds of Henderson officials. We already know the county won't listen to reason, but when they are the only ones left, I think it will a lot easier for the State to step in.

Anyone know what happens in Mesquite? They have their own police, so I am assuming they are an incorporated city with their own laws.
 

The Big Guy

Regular Member
Joined
Oct 20, 2009
Messages
1,966
Location
Waco, TX
I love it. I only noted a few punctuation errors, but they did not detract from the effective point of the letter. It would be very cool to turn on a few lights in the minds of Henderson officials. We already know the county won't listen to reason, but when they are the only ones left, I think it will a lot easier for the State to step in.

Anyone know what happens in Mesquite? They have their own police, so I am assuming they are an incorporated city with their own laws.


Geeez, you're a bigger grammer nazi than my wife, who by the way already caught my agregious errors and fixed them.

TBG
 

MAC702

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Messages
6,331
Location
Nevada
So would it help if their City Attorney (or council) received letters from others as well? Would it have less impact if it came from someone not a Henderson resident?
 

The Big Guy

Regular Member
Joined
Oct 20, 2009
Messages
1,966
Location
Waco, TX
So would it help if their City Attorney (or council) received letters from others as well? Would it have less impact if it came from someone not a Henderson resident?
Right now I don't want to do anything else. Not until I get an answer. I'm guessing that they will tell me to hang on while they go through all the city codes. Our new C.A. has ordered his department to audit all city codes and ordinances and get rid of or rewrite those that are outdated.

If this is the case, I will then go into the monetary end of it to stress the importance of getting rid of a costly, failing ordinance. If you heard the news this morning you know that the union representing the Henderson beat cops agreed to a 2 year wage freeze. This could not have happened at a better time for our cause. When they find out that they can't keep up with inflation and feed and clothe their children, but the city can run an overly burdensome program with no benefits, they should be angry about it.

I will then appeal to the Mayor and City Council as I did on the last issue and try to get it heard before a Council meeting. At that time I will need everyone who can to write and or ask to speak to their council members. I really think that in this time of economic chaos that they will have to listen about this awful waste of police resources.

If we can get Henderson to listen to reason then it gives us some mighty big ammunition to use against the County, Las Vegas and N. Las Vegas. If there is anyone who lives in N.L.V. who can do a little background on ordinances and go after them on this issue I think they might be ripe as they are flat, busted, broke. I'm guessing it is costing them near as much as Henderson. A little media attention and they might just sit up and take notice.

Thanks for the offer Mac.


TBG
 

The Big Guy

Regular Member
Joined
Oct 20, 2009
Messages
1,966
Location
Waco, TX
I love it. I only noted a few punctuation errors, but they did not detract from the effective point of the letter. It would be very cool to turn on a few lights in the minds of Henderson officials. We already know the county won't listen to reason, but when they are the only ones left, I think it will a lot easier for the State to step in.

Anyone know what happens in Mesquite? They have their own police, so I am assuming they are an incorporated city with their own laws.


As to not get off topic here I have started a new thread about this.

TBG
 

The Big Guy

Regular Member
Joined
Oct 20, 2009
Messages
1,966
Location
Waco, TX
answer from City Attorney

I forgot to post this but I did get a response from Bob Zentz, Assistant City Attorney. As I guessed he said they are working on going through all the city codes and that when the CA's office
issues its recommendations it will be debated in a City Council meeting and I was welcome to attend. Well, thank you sir.

I have now written the Mayor and City Council Members with a CC to the City Manager, Chief of Police and City Attorney. It worked with the parks and city buildings, who knows, twice in a row?

I talked about the cost and illegality of the city registration ordinance and suggested that they may not want to see this land in court.

I'll post the letter later.

TBG
 

The Big Guy

Regular Member
Joined
Oct 20, 2009
Messages
1,966
Location
Waco, TX
Letter

Here is a copy of what I sent.

TBG



Mayor Andy Hafen
Council Members Gerri Schroder, Debra March, John Marz, Sam Bateman
Henderson City Hall
POB 95050
Henderson NV 89009-5050

Dear Mayor and Council Members,

I have been in contact with the City Attorney’s office concerning outdated firearms ordinances
still on the books and in some cases still being enforced. Assistant City Attorney Robert Zentz
has let me know that our new City Attorney Josh Reid has instructed his office to examine all
city ordinances and review them as to any modifications or deletions needed. Unfortunately
there are ordinances still on the books that are in direct violation of state law and are still
being enforced.

As you know in 1989 and then again in 2007, the Nevada State Legislature took full pre-emption
of firearms laws within the state. The only exceptions they allowed were discharge of firearms
and handgun registration within Clark County.

Under SB-92, passed in 2007, all local ordinances not in compliance with state law were given a
set time to be modified or removed. The City of Henderson did not modify the handgun registration
ordinance, HMC 8.98.030, so therefore it is null and void.

Henderson Municipal code 8.98.030 reads:
It is unlawful for any person to own or have in his possession a gun, pistol, revolver or other
firearm capable of being concealed without first having registered it with the chief of police.

In order for this ordinance to be valid, state mandated language as directed by SB-92, would need
to have been added, stating that a resident has 72 hours upon Purchasing or bringing a handgun into
the jurisdiction to get it registered. It further would have needed to contain language stating that
anyone moving into or remaining in the jurisdiction for more than 60 days would have to register their
handguns. As you can see it contains neither. The registration would have to be with the Henderson
Chief of Police, not the Sheriff, and he would therefore have to be the holder of those records.

At some point a decision was made to have the Henderson Police Department register firearms under
County Ordinance 12.04.110 commonly referred to as the “Blue Card registration”. I have asked the
City Attorney’s office how the Chief of Police of the City of Henderson would have had the authority
to abrogate that responsibility under HMC 8.98.030 to the county? As an incorporated city, Henderson
is not required to conduct registration for the county nor is it subject to county ordinances within
the incorporated city. A.C.A. Zentz did not directly answer this question.

As Boulder City and Mesquite were incorporated cities at the time of pre-emption and did not have a registration ordinance in force
at the time, the citizens of those cities have never been required to register their firearms. As the Henderson code is no longer valid,
and has not been for some time, its citizens are not required to register either.

The cost to the County to administer the Blue Card program is in the neighborhood of two million dollars
a year, and it has registered in excess of 1.1 million handguns since 1973. The Sheriff has been unable
to point to one single crime solved because of it in the past sixty plus years. He has been asked this
by citizen groups as well as past Commission Chair Rory Reid and Commission MemberTom Collins.
In light of this I have researched the cost of this program to the City of Henderson and have been in
contact with Acting Captain Dane Matoon of the Henderson Police Department. With the information obtained
in that search I have estimated that the cost to the City of Henderson is in the area of $150,000.00 per
year. As with the Sheriff, the Henderson Police Department is unable to show any cost/benefit to the
people of Henderson. Why would it? Only honest citizens follow the law. Criminals don’t
register.

In these hard economic times it just does not make sense to continue a program that is sixty plus years
old, and at a tremendous cost, has shown absolutely no proof that it has been a benefit to the citizens
of the City of Henderson. This on top of the fact that it is unenforceable under Nevada Statutes.
I strongly urge the City Council to move quickly on stopping this unenforceable waste before it ends up
in litigation. The citizens of this city deserve to have their limited resources used more wisely. As the
patrol officers of this city have had to give up cost of living raises in the next two years, it is
ridiculous to spend this kind of money on an illegal and useless program. I for one would rather have
another cop on the street.

Respectfully



Cc: Josh M. Reid C.A; Jacob Snow C.M; Patrick E. Moers C of P
 
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The Big Guy

Regular Member
Joined
Oct 20, 2009
Messages
1,966
Location
Waco, TX
They acknowledge they have the letters.

Just got an email.

TBG

Dear ,

Thank you for taking the time to write to the Office of the Mayor & City Council regarding your concerns over our firearm ordinance. We will make sure to deliver your letters to the Mayor and Council, and to our staff for their review and response. We hope that you will continue to work with us to ensure that our city is the best it can be for us all.

Sincerely,
Kimberly Gordon
Office of the Mayor & Council

#efm 12-137032
 

The Big Guy

Regular Member
Joined
Oct 20, 2009
Messages
1,966
Location
Waco, TX
update as of today 12-12-12

No response so I emailed the gal that responded to me that the letters had been received and asked her for an update. No response.

Emailed the Mayor on 12/10/12 demanding an answer to the points of my letter.

12/12/12 got a snail mail response from a new player at the City Attorney's office. Pretty much the same as the last letter I got with a bit more inane nonsense thrown in for good measure. I might add that not only did he not respond to most of the points of my letter, on the ones he did he left himself open to a good left hook which I will throw. He also needs a remedial letter writing class. I guess communication skills are not required to be a City Attorney.

The battle continues.

TBG
 
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ed2276

Regular Member
Joined
Nov 29, 2011
Messages
366
Location
Las Vegas,NV
Here is a copy of what I sent.

TBG



Mayor Andy Hafen
Council Members Gerri Schroder, Debra March, John Marz, Sam Bateman
Henderson City Hall
POB 95050
Henderson NV 89009-5050

Dear Mayor and Council Members,

I have been in contact with the City Attorney’s office concerning outdated firearms ordinances
still on the books and in some cases still being enforced. Assistant City Attorney Robert Zentz
has let me know that our new City Attorney Josh Reid has instructed his office to examine all
city ordinances and review them as to any modifications or deletions needed. Unfortunately
there are ordinances still on the books that are in direct violation of state law and are still
being enforced.

As you know in 1989 and then again in 2007, the Nevada State Legislature took full pre-emption
of firearms laws within the state. The only exceptions they allowed were discharge of firearms
and handgun registration within Clark County.

Under SB-92, passed in 2007, all local ordinances not in compliance with state law were given a
set time to be modified or removed. The City of Henderson did not modify the handgun registration
ordinance, HMC 8.98.030, so therefore it is null and void.

Henderson Municipal code 8.98.030 reads:
It is unlawful for any person to own or have in his possession a gun, pistol, revolver or other
firearm capable of being concealed without first having registered it with the chief of police.

In order for this ordinance to be valid, state mandated language as directed by SB-92, would need
to have been added, stating that a resident has 72 hours upon Purchasing or bringing a handgun into
the jurisdiction to get it registered. It further would have needed to contain language stating that
anyone moving into or remaining in the jurisdiction for more than 60 days would have to register their
handguns. As you can see it contains neither. The registration would have to be with the Henderson
Chief of Police, not the Sheriff, and he would therefore have to be the holder of those records.

At some point a decision was made to have the Henderson Police Department register firearms under
County Ordinance 12.04.110 commonly referred to as the “Blue Card registration”. I have asked the
City Attorney’s office how the Chief of Police of the City of Henderson would have had the authority
to abrogate that responsibility under HMC 8.98.030 to the county? As an incorporated city, Henderson
is not required to conduct registration for the county nor is it subject to county ordinances within
the incorporated city. A.C.A. Zentz did not directly answer this question.

As Boulder City and Mesquite were incorporated cities at the time of pre-emption and did not have a registration ordinance in force
at the time, the citizens of those cities have never been required to register their firearms. As the Henderson code is no longer valid,
and has not been for some time, its citizens are not required to register either.

The cost to the County to administer the Blue Card program is in the neighborhood of two million dollars
a year, and it has registered in excess of 1.1 million handguns since 1973. The Sheriff has been unable
to point to one single crime solved because of it in the past sixty plus years. He has been asked this
by citizen groups as well as past Commission Chair Rory Reid and Commission MemberTom Collins.
In light of this I have researched the cost of this program to the City of Henderson and have been in
contact with Acting Captain Dane Matoon of the Henderson Police Department. With the information obtained
in that search I have estimated that the cost to the City of Henderson is in the area of $150,000.00 per
year. As with the Sheriff, the Henderson Police Department is unable to show any cost/benefit to the
people of Henderson. Why would it? Only honest citizens follow the law. Criminals don’t
register.

In these hard economic times it just does not make sense to continue a program that is sixty plus years
old, and at a tremendous cost, has shown absolutely no proof that it has been a benefit to the citizens
of the City of Henderson. This on top of the fact that it is unenforceable under Nevada Statutes.
I strongly urge the City Council to move quickly on stopping this unenforceable waste before it ends up
in litigation. The citizens of this city deserve to have their limited resources used more wisely. As the
patrol officers of this city have had to give up cost of living raises in the next two years, it is
ridiculous to spend this kind of money on an illegal and useless program. I for one would rather have
another cop on the street.

Respectfully



Cc: Josh M. Reid C.A; Jacob Snow C.M; Patrick E. Moers C of P

Very good letter! The only difference between you and I is that I would not rather have another cop on the street. But, that's another topic.
 
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ed2276

Regular Member
Joined
Nov 29, 2011
Messages
366
Location
Las Vegas,NV
No response so I emailed the gal that responded to me that the letters had been received and asked her for an update. No response.

I guess communication skills are not required to be a City Attorney.



TBG

Au contraire, mon amie! It appears that the City Attorney in question does possess communication skills--chief among them, obfuscation--along with goal post shifting and the ability to side-step or ignore probative, well-reasoned questions.
 

DON`T TREAD ON ME

Regular Member
Joined
May 17, 2009
Messages
1,231
Location
Las Vegas, Nevada, USA
TBG,

You might try utilizing NRS 239 to get them to come off of the info, and if the info is incriminating enough they may just give in to you one more time! While it may not read as sexy as the kick a$$ letter you sent, not responding to a NRS 239 request is a class C felony. Henderson City Attorney knows this first hand. he phoned me after I requested some public documents and told me i was out of luck, and if I did not like it to sue him, I wrote him back and cc'ed and the Josh Reid guy and threatened citizen arrest. I signed for my documents two days later... and they could not have been nicer. Oh yeah it was about 350 pages and they decided the copy fees were on them.
So here is an example on how to request what you need in NRS 239 format:

Pursuant to NRS Chapter 239 I hereby request the following:

1. Any document in the City's possession containing the authority with which the city of Henderson has been registering concealable firearms since preemption in 2007.
2. Any document file or other media containing the the number of firearms in the database, in the possession of the Henderson Chief of police.

Etc. Etc. If you are interested in this method, let me know and we can put lots of stuff in 239 format. The extra work might just make them give it up. I have learned this about Govt. They cannot remain relevant if they go away, so they master the art of making us go away! DO NOT GO AWAY.

Kudos to the BIG GUY
 

The Big Guy

Regular Member
Joined
Oct 20, 2009
Messages
1,966
Location
Waco, TX
TBG,

You might try utilizing NRS 239 to get them to come off of the info, and if the info is incriminating enough they may just give in to you one more time! While it may not read as sexy as the kick a$$ letter you sent, not responding to a NRS 239 request is a class C felony. Henderson City Attorney knows this first hand. he phoned me after I requested some public documents and told me i was out of luck, and if I did not like it to sue him, I wrote him back and cc'ed and the Josh Reid guy and threatened citizen arrest. I signed for my documents two days later... and they could not have been nicer. Oh yeah it was about 350 pages and they decided the copy fees were on them.
So here is an example on how to request what you need in NRS 239 format:

Pursuant to NRS Chapter 239 I hereby request the following:

1. Any document in the City's possession containing the authority with which the city of Henderson has been registering concealable firearms since preemption in 2007.
2. Any document file or other media containing the the number of firearms in the database, in the possession of the Henderson Chief of police.

Etc. Etc. If you are interested in this method, let me know and we can put lots of stuff in 239 format. The extra work might just make them give it up. I have learned this about Govt. They cannot remain relevant if they go away, so they master the art of making us go away! DO NOT GO AWAY.

Kudos to the BIG GUY


Great idea. I will take a look into that. I have another idea or two also. In my opinion it is always best, after reason fails, to surround them and make them scream.

Let us keep in mind that Josh Reid got his job because of lobbying by his dad. They were able to lower the standards/requirements for the job in order to make him eligible to assume the post of Henderson City Attorney. Unfortunately the Mayor and Council rely on him to give them legal advice.

TBG
 

The Big Guy

Regular Member
Joined
Oct 20, 2009
Messages
1,966
Location
Waco, TX
Letter from Henderson A.C.A. Michael J. Oh

The following is a response to my letter to the Mayor and Council Members of Henderson. It was from Michael J. Oh, Assistant City Attorney.

TBG


Dear Mr. XXX

The Office of the City Attorney is in receipt of your letter dated October 10, 2012, to the Mayor and City Council reference the City of Henderson firearm ordinance. The City Attorney's Office has been asked to respond to the letter.

Regarding your concerns on the registration of firearms, the Henderson Police Department will accept registration of a firearm at the police station for individuals who are required to register a firearm pursuant to the Clark County Code. However, this registration is done as a courtesy for the citizens of Clark County. When a person comes into the Henderson Police Department to register a firearm, they are allowed to come into one of the police stations and submit the registration to the regularly scheduled desk officer. Once the information is obtained, a blue card provided by LVMPD is provided to the registrant and the information is forwarded directly to the LVMPD for further processing. It is my understanding there is no additional cost incurred by the Henderson Police Department as an officer is regularly scheduled at the desk of each police station. Additionally, providing this service for the citizen does not reduce the number of officers patrolling the streets.

Finally, you have expressed concern regarding the Henderson Municipal Code relative to firearms. As previously stated by Mr. Zentz' email to you in September 6, 2012, the City Attorney's Office is still in the process of reviewing the Henderson Municipal to ensure the Code is up to date. As you can appreciate, this process will take some time in order to accurately update the code. Nevertheless, it is expected that there will be changes to Title 8. When the changes are complete, the amendments will be presented to the City Council at their regularly scheduled meetings where the public is encouraged to participate to make comments or voice concerns for the city Council to consider.

We welcome your participation when the amendments are presented to the City Council. The meeting agendas may be located at:

http://henderson.siretechnologies.com/sirepub/meetresults.aspx.

Sincerely,

Michael J. Oh
Assistant City Attorney.
 
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