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Thread: Brandishing a firearm?

  1. #1
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    Brandishing a firearm?

    Tuesday at work ..I work for a county utilities..we were working on a sewer clean out behind a jewelry store in a strip mall like setting..the owner of the place open up the back door with a gun in his hand .to see if he was getting robbed..i guess..thats what he thought...we had 2 trucks and 5 guys working out side... i said whooo.. and he said no sh##t whoo.. then he knew that he had messed up...did'nt say a word ... to us..i'm sorry nothing... then he got in his truck .. and left..he thought that we would have called the cops on him .. but my boss didn't...I wanted to..what should have i done? he had his finger on the trigger..it was a little to close for me,,, i'm new to this forum.. thanks..

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    Accomplished Advocate peter nap's Avatar
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    Why would you call the cops?
    Did he threaten to kill you for fooling with his sewer?
    Where are these new people coming from?
    Last edited by peter nap; 08-09-2012 at 09:58 PM.

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    Regular Member ocholsteroc's Avatar
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    Join Date: Dec 2010Location: Gloucester VaPosts: 1
    heck of a first post.
    How come a DUI you can get your driver licence back, which it is a privilege. But if commiting a felon, even something non violent like stealing, you are denied your constitutional rights for the rest of your life?
    If you don't support the Second Amendment to the Constitution, what other parts of the Constitution do you reject?
    More restrictions on guns? how about restrictions on chainsaws and knives?

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    Quote Originally Posted by tushooz View Post
    Tuesday at work ..I work for a county utilities..we were working on a sewer clean out behind a jewelry store in a strip mall like setting..the owner of the place open up the back door with a gun in his hand .to see if he was getting robbed..i guess..thats what he thought...we had 2 trucks and 5 guys working out side... i said whooo.. and he said no sh##t whoo.. then he knew that he had messed up...did'nt say a word ... to us..i'm sorry nothing... then he got in his truck .. and left..he thought that we would have called the cops on him .. but my boss didn't...I wanted to..what should have i done? he had his finger on the trigger..it was a little to close for me,,, i'm new to this forum.. thanks..
    Welcome to OCDO!


    Here is the relevant piece of VA law on the matter:
    A. It shall be unlawful for any person to point, hold or brandish any firearm or any air or gas operated weapon or any object similar in appearance, whether capable of being fired or not, in such manner as to reasonably induce fear in the mind of another or hold a firearm or any air or gas operated weapon in a public place in such a manner as to reasonably induce fear in the mind of another of being shot or injured. However, this section shall not apply to any person engaged in excusable or justifiable self-defense. Persons violating the provisions of this section shall be guilty of a Class 1 misdemeanor or, if the violation occurs upon any public, private or religious elementary, middle or high school, including buildings and grounds or upon public property within 1,000 feet of such school property, he shall be guilty of a Class 6 felony.

    http://leg1.state.va.us/cgi-bin/legp504.exe?000+cod+18.2-282

    You will have to judge for yourself whether the law was broken; your report makes it a little hard for me to be certain. Also, don't forget there is a difference between being startled at seeing a gun, and being reasonably fearful of being shot.

    More details would help. For example, how did he hold the gun? Was it pointed at anybody? Was it hanging down at his side? Was it held in a posture ready for defense? Did he make any verbal threats? Was it over before anybody had time to go from being startled to being reasonably fearful of being shot? Etc.
    Last edited by Citizen; 08-09-2012 at 10:15 PM.
    I'll make you an offer: I will argue and fight for all of your rights, if you will do the same for me. That is the only way freedom can work. We have to respect all rights, all the time--and strive to win the rights of the other guy as much as for ourselves.

    If I am equal to another, how can I legitimately govern him without his express individual consent?

    There is no human being on earth I hate so much I would actually vote to inflict government upon him.

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    Regular Member TFred's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by tushooz View Post
    Tuesday at work ..I work for a county utilities..we were working on a sewer clean out behind a jewelry store in a strip mall like setting..the owner of the place open up the back door with a gun in his hand .to see if he was getting robbed..i guess..thats what he thought...we had 2 trucks and 5 guys working out side... i said whooo.. and he said no sh##t whoo.. then he knew that he had messed up...did'nt say a word ... to us..i'm sorry nothing... then he got in his truck .. and left..he thought that we would have called the cops on him .. but my boss didn't...I wanted to..what should have i done? he had his finger on the trigger..it was a little to close for me,,, i'm new to this forum.. thanks..
    I've been around guns for nearly all my life, and as long as they are handled safely, I don't think I would have a problem. I could see a business owner coming out his back door holding a handgun in a safe position (muzzle down, finger OFF the trigger).

    But if this guy is actually pointing at people with a finger ON the trigger... then IMHO, that is over the top and I wouldn't have a problem calling in someone to at least give him some safe handling tips. All the safeguards were gone, one slight start from a completely unrelated incident or noise down the block could have gotten someone killed and many lives forever altered.

    JMHO.

    TFred

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    Regular Member gmuguy's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by ocholsteroc View Post
    heck of a first post.
    +1 lol

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    Quote Originally Posted by tushooz View Post
    tuesday at work ..i work for a county utilities..we were working on a sewer clean out behind a jewelry store in a strip mall like setting..the owner of the place open up the back door with a gun in his hand .to see if he was getting robbed..i guess..thats what he thought...we had 2 trucks and 5 guys working out side... I said whooo.. And he said no sh##t whoo.. Then he knew that he had messed up...did'nt say a word ... To us..i'm sorry nothing... Then he got in his truck .. And left..he thought that we would have called the cops on him .. But my boss didn't...i wanted to..what should have i done? He had his finger on the trigger..it was a little to close for me,,, i'm new to this forum.. Thanks..
    let the people in the area know what you public employees are doing. Knock on doors, send letters, or something!!! Do you not realize that people actually have a problem with getting robbed and such? For your own sake, be safe!

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    Founder's Club Member - Moderator ed's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by MR Redenck View Post
    let the people in the area know what you public employees are doing. Knock on doors, send letters, or something!!! Do you not realize that people actually have a problem with getting robbed and such? For your own sake, be safe!
    Yeah, THAT's practical
    Carry On.

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    Quote Originally Posted by peter nap View Post
    Why would you call the cops?
    Did he threaten to kill you for fooling with his sewer?
    Where are these new people coming from?
    +1

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    18.2-56.1 could also be used in this case. It's not unheard of to use the "reckless handling" statute when there's not enough PC for brandishing.
    I could see an officer making an arrest (or issuing a summons), but I would have a hard time seeing a judge convicting on it, as the individual in question is going to be able to articulate that he was in fear, as he believed was possibly being robbed. The story given wasn't overly detailed, but I gathered that once the individual realized he was not in any danger, he holstered (or otherwise put away) the firearm, and left the area. That would certainly help while making his case in front of the judge.

    Quote Originally Posted by Citizen View Post
    Welcome to OCDO!


    Here is the relevant piece of VA law on the matter:
    A. It shall be unlawful for any person to point, hold or brandish any firearm or any air or gas operated weapon or any object similar in appearance, whether capable of being fired or not, in such manner as to reasonably induce fear in the mind of another or hold a firearm or any air or gas operated weapon in a public place in such a manner as to reasonably induce fear in the mind of another of being shot or injured. However, this section shall not apply to any person engaged in excusable or justifiable self-defense. Persons violating the provisions of this section shall be guilty of a Class 1 misdemeanor or, if the violation occurs upon any public, private or religious elementary, middle or high school, including buildings and grounds or upon public property within 1,000 feet of such school property, he shall be guilty of a Class 6 felony.

    http://leg1.state.va.us/cgi-bin/legp504.exe?000+cod+18.2-282

    You will have to judge for yourself whether the law was broken; your report makes it a little hard for me to be certain. Also, don't forget there is a difference between being startled at seeing a gun, and being reasonably fearful of being shot.

    More details would help. For example, how did he hold the gun? Was it pointed at anybody? Was it hanging down at his side? Was it held in a posture ready for defense? Did he make any verbal threats? Was it over before anybody had time to go from being startled to being reasonably fearful of being shot? Etc.

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    Quote Originally Posted by tushooz View Post
    Tuesday at work ..I work for a county utilities..we were working on a sewer clean out behind a jewelry store in a strip mall like setting..the owner of the place open up the back door with a gun in his hand .to see if he was getting robbed..i guess..thats what he thought...we had 2 trucks and 5 guys working out side... i said whooo.. and he said no sh##t whoo.. then he knew that he had messed up...did'nt say a word ... to us..i'm sorry nothing... then he got in his truck .. and left..he thought that we would have called the cops on him .. but my boss didn't...I wanted to..what should have i done? he had his finger on the trigger..it was a little to close for me,,, i'm new to this forum.. thanks..
    You're welcome.
    I'll make you an offer: I will argue and fight for all of your rights, if you will do the same for me. That is the only way freedom can work. We have to respect all rights, all the time--and strive to win the rights of the other guy as much as for ourselves.

    If I am equal to another, how can I legitimately govern him without his express individual consent?

    There is no human being on earth I hate so much I would actually vote to inflict government upon him.

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    Quote Originally Posted by starbuck View Post
    18.2-56.1 could also be used in this case. It's not unheard of to use the "reckless handling" statute when there's not enough PC for brandishing.
    I could see an officer making an arrest (or issuing a summons), but I would have a hard time seeing a judge convicting on it, as the individual in question is going to be able to articulate that he was in fear, as he believed was possibly being robbed. The story given wasn't overly detailed, but I gathered that once the individual realized he was not in any danger, he holstered (or otherwise put away) the firearm, and left the area. That would certainly help while making his case in front of the judge.
    Fear of being robbed is not apprehension of imminent death or serious bodily injury, which is the only time you are supposed to be excused/justified for using deadly force. Drawing/having the handgun in your hand (as opposed to having it in your holster/pocket) is considered use of deadly force. The Va Supreme Court has gone to some length to discuss the difference between being in fear of imminent death/serious bodily injury (aren't we all?) and being in apprehension of imminent death/serious bodily injury. http://www.courts.state.va.us/opinio...wp/1010071.pdf They also have ruled that brandishing in defense of property is not allowed. Should be the first case on the page at http://www.virginia1774.org/Page5.html .

    If the shopowner believed he was going to be robbed he should have IMHO 1) forted up, including locking the back door instead of opening it and standing there, 2) called the police to tell them he thinks he is about to be robbed, and 3) made preparations as he felt necessary, in keeping with his plan of forting up, to repel boarders.

    stay safe.
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    Because stupidity isn't a race, and everybody can win.

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    Accomplished Advocate peter nap's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by skidmark View Post
    Fear of being robbed is not apprehension of imminent death or serious bodily injury, which is the only time you are supposed to be excused/justified for using deadly force. Drawing/having the handgun in your hand (as opposed to having it in your holster/pocket) is considered use of deadly force. The Va Supreme Court has gone to some length to discuss the difference between being in fear of imminent death/serious bodily injury (aren't we all?) and being in apprehension of imminent death/serious bodily injury. http://www.courts.state.va.us/opinio...wp/1010071.pdf They also have ruled that brandishing in defense of property is not allowed. Should be the first case on the page at http://www.virginia1774.org/Page5.html .

    If the shopowner believed he was going to be robbed he should have IMHO 1) forted up, including locking the back door instead of opening it and standing there, 2) called the police to tell them he thinks he is about to be robbed, and 3) made preparations as he felt necessary, in keeping with his plan of forting up, to repel boarders.

    stay safe.
    That's not really the point Skid.

    People shouldn't run around calling the police to solve non existent problems. The boy needs to grow a pair.

    Besides, the cop couldn't have done anything but look snotty and direct him to the magistrate. He wasn't there and didn't witness it.

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    Quote Originally Posted by peter nap View Post
    That's not really the point Skid.

    People shouldn't run around calling the police to solve non existent problems. The boy needs to grow a pair.

    Besides, the cop couldn't have done anything but look snotty and direct him to the magistrate. He wasn't there and didn't witness it.
    so when a person has a gun and has it in a manner that he could shoot you ..you say grow some balls ....have you ever had that happen to you ?

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    Quote Originally Posted by tushooz View Post
    so when a person has a gun and has it in a manner that he could shoot you ..you say grow some balls ....have you ever had that happen to you ?
    Out of an entire thread, that was the one he decided needed a reply? Especially given that his OP didn't particularly describe anything beyond the store owner having a gun in his hand?

    (sigh)
    I'll make you an offer: I will argue and fight for all of your rights, if you will do the same for me. That is the only way freedom can work. We have to respect all rights, all the time--and strive to win the rights of the other guy as much as for ourselves.

    If I am equal to another, how can I legitimately govern him without his express individual consent?

    There is no human being on earth I hate so much I would actually vote to inflict government upon him.

  16. #16
    Accomplished Advocate peter nap's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by tushooz View Post
    so when a person has a gun and has it in a manner that he could shoot you ..you say grow some balls ....have you ever had that happen to you ?
    Yes!

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    Did he point the gun at anyone? If no, then leave the guy alone. Also, I've worked utilities, and we always had to notify locals when we would be anywhere near their property. That keeps this kind of thing from happening. Based on what you've told us(that he had a gun in his hand at the backdoor of HIS business) you would have been at best misguided to call the police. At worst, you would be sicking LEOs on a fellow carrier, and further damaging our cause. Remember, you aren't the only one with the right to self defence.

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