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Thread: Going for Open Carry in 2013

  1. #1
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    Going for Open Carry in 2013

    I didnt see a thread about this yet....but I didnt look hard either

    http://www.tampabay.com/news/politic...lorida/1244820



    The National Rifle Association will seek to pass a bill legalizing the open carrying of firearms in Florida during the 2013 session of the state Legislature, renewing a crusade for expanded gun rights that faltered last year, a longtime lobbyist for the group said Wednesday.

    Marion Hammer, executive director of the NRA's state lobbying organization, Unified Sportsmen of Florida, told the Tampa Bay Times that the envisioned legislation would make it legal for holders of concealed-weapons permits to carry exposed guns in public.

    Hammer said the bill is necessary to protect such gun owners from harassment by police when they accidentally reveal concealed weapons in public. A 2011 compromise that tweaked existing regulations to remove penalties for those who unintentionally expose a gun has not been sufficient protection, she said. As a result, the NRA has reverted to its original goal of open carry for concealed-weapons permit holders.

    "We are going to address the problem of law-abiding gun owners exercising their Second Amendment rights, because they're being harassed," Hammer said. "The goal of the new bill will be exactly as it was in 2011 — to protect law-abiding people who have a license to carry."

    Hammer's announcement comes at a time when the subject of firearm restrictions is even more emotionally freighted than usual. In the past three weeks, troubled gunmen have carried out two of the worst shooting massacres in recent U.S. history, leaving a total of 18 people dead and 61 wounded at a movie theater in a Denver suburb and a Sikh temple in Wisconsin.

    The 2013 bill is sure to attract national attention from both supporters and opponents of firearm regulations. Expanding open carry in states that don't allow it has become a cherished cause of gun-rights activists in recent years.

    Dozens of states allow their residents to openly carry firearms, though many have restrictions on where it can be done or require licenses. Despite its generally permissive gun laws, Florida has not allowed its residents to sport pistols on their hips in plain sight since 1987, when the Legislature outlawed the practice. There's an exception for gun owners engaged in or traveling directly to or from hunting, fishing and camping trips.

    A 2011 NRA-backed bill that would have legalized open carry for concealed-weapon license holders in Florida passed through committees in the state House and Senate. But it was severely curtailed after law enforcement officials, including Hillsborough County Sheriff David Gee and former Pinellas County Sheriff Jim Coats, lined up against it. In the end, state gun laws were changed so that concealed-weapons permit holders would not be penalized if they "briefly" expose their guns accidentally.

    Steve Casey of the Florida Sheriffs Association, which opposed the 2011 open-carry bill, said the organization would fight similar legislation if it comes up again. The association argues that open carry would pose a public-safety threat, creating opportunities for criminals to steal and use exposed guns and confusing law enforcement officers who respond to a call only to find that both perpetrators and victims of a crime are wielding weapons.

    "I think we would still have the same concerns we had with that bill last year, if it's identical," Casey said. "We need to see it."

    Hammer said the specific language of the new legislation has not yet been drafted. The NRA will decide which lawmakers to work with on advancing a new bill after the November elections, she said.

    State Sen. Greg Evers, a Republican running for re-election in a Panhandle district, was the 2011 bill's main sponsor in the Senate. If he's still in Tallahassee next year, Evers said, he would enthusiastically support a new bill, based on ongoing allegations that police are harassing concealed-weapon licensees.

    "Whether I carry the bill, or someone else carries the bill, I would still work to support the bill, because we've still got a problem," Evers said.

    Sean Caranna, executive director of the gun-rights group Florida Carry, said he has tracked 77 complaints from bearers of concealed weapons who say they have been treated inappropriately by law enforcement officers since last year's open-carry bill ended in a stalemate.

    He pointed to the case of Dale Norman, a 23-year-old Fort Pierce man charged with openly carrying a .38-caliber handgun on his hip, a misdemeanor, after a passer-by saw him on the street and called police in February. Norman, who had only obtained his concealed-carry license days earlier, claimed the edge of his shirt was caught beneath his holster, inadvertently displaying the weapon.

    He was found guilty by a St. Lucie County jury in June. His defense lawyer, Ashley Minton of Fort Pierce, said his sentence is pending while the judge considers multiple motions to dismiss that she filed during the trial, based in part on constitutional challenges to Florida's open-carry ban.

    She is also arguing that the state's exemption for a "brief" display of a concealed weapon is too vague to be enforced.

    "It's kind of a mess," she said of the current law.

    Peter Jamison can be reached at pjamison@tampabay.com or (727) 445-4157.

    [Last modified: Aug 08, 2012 11:18 PM]

    Copyright 2012 Tampa Bay Times

  2. #2
    Regular Member hammer6's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by sniper1 View Post
    but I didnt look hard either

    lol

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    at least I am honest

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    Quote Originally Posted by sniper1 View Post
    at least I am honest
    ....well I guess it's a priority again...until they decide -again- it's not a priority item..


    Ill not be holding my breath, until I see some real effort on this..

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    Let's hope the good people of Creatview keep Evers in office

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    Campaign Veteran Schlitz's Avatar
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    i'm not counting on it. I put a lot of effort into contacting my representatives every 5 minutes when SB234 was hanging around, but I've learned they don't give a damn.
    “The claim and exercise of a constitutional right cannot be converted into a crime.”
    [Miller vs. U.S., 230 F. Supp. 486, 489 (1956)]
    “There can be no sanction or penalty imposed upon one because of his exercise of constitutional rights.”
    [Sherar vs. Cullen, 481 F2d. 946 (1973)]

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    Marion Hammer: NRA Wants New Open-Carry Gun Law in Florida? NOT!



    Source: NRAvideos Youtube
    Last edited by seminoles1999; 08-12-2012 at 03:15 AM.

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    Regular Member 77zach's Avatar
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    Rights vs Conveniences

    I just think the NRA is making things more difficult again. Don't get me wrong, I'm thrilled and grateful that they're doing anything at all. But, they need to talk about the right to bear arms as it relates to this issue too. Politicians don't want to be seen as anti-gun rights. Let's take Senator Steve Oelrich. He was against OC, but is now running for Congress. He doesn't understand the 2nd amendment so he doesn't see his opposition to OC as a political problem. Marion Hammer, I assume, gave Elyn Bogdanoff an "A" grade.

    I think they'll try the same thing that they did in 2011. These lawmakers believe that government has rights and WE HAVE PRIVILEGES.

    I hate to give these "law" makers ideas but here is one thing they could try to do:

    790.053

    "It is not a violation of this section for a person licensed to carry a concealed firearm as provided in s. 790.06(1), and who is lawfully carrying a firearm in a concealed manner, to briefly and openly display the firearm to the ordinary sight of another person, unless the firearm is intentionally displayed after given verbal notice that said firearm is not concealed."

    Or, we could OC with a signage law to appease the idiot retail federation. That would be worst of all.

    Again, this could happen because right to bear arms means nothing in FL.
    “If the natural tendencies of mankind are so bad that it is not safe to permit people to be free, how is it that the tendencies of these organizers are always good? Do not the legislators and their appointed agents also belong to the human race? Or do they believe that they themselves are made of a finer clay than the rest of mankind? ” -Bastiat

    I don't "need" to openly carry a handgun or own an "assault weapon" any more than Rosa Parks needed a seat on the bus.

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    Quote Originally Posted by 77zach View Post

    Or, we could OC with a signage law to appease the idiot retail federation. That would be worst of all.
    What makes that worst of all is because the potential for giving signage weight of law wouldn't be limited to OC. It would envelop ALL lawful carry in Florida. Heck, give them enough rope and they'd cover knives and anything else with umbrella signage. Meaning, while Florida may gain the ability to OC, it will be significantly limited and we all loose in the end because right now, we can choose to ignore those signs. Those signs just make certain people feel good about them. But, as things stand, they are worthless.

    My fear is that the current push for OC will result in the Retail Fed gaining their signage law and, OC or CC, we'd lose more freedoms than we gain because overnight, we'd be severely limited as to where we could carry. A gunbuster sign would spring up on the entry door to almost every business in the state and we all know it. We'd step back years in gun rights as we'd find ourselves regulated back to only being able to protect ourselves at home, in our car.

    It almost happened last year. And, watch out for that retention holster/training requirement that the Sheriffs group will undoubtedly push for again.

    In my opinion, the legislative road is a dead end for OC in Florida. And, quite frankly, I believe it's a dangerous one given the inability to control the back-room dealings of politicians. The only way to get OC s through the courts by proving that Florida's outright ban on open carry is unconstitutional. If we leave it up to the politicians and political lobbying groups willing to sell us out for political gains, we're screwed.

    The legislative route gives our opponents the open door to create the rules. Declaring the outright ban on OC unconstitutional doesn't leave those doors open to them.

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    Moderator / Administrator Grapeshot's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by JeepSeller View Post
    --snip--

    My fear is that the current push for OC will result in the Retail Fed gaining their signage law and, OC or CC, we'd lose more freedoms than we gain because overnight, we'd be severely limited as to where we could carry. A gunbuster sign would spring up on the entry door to almost every business in the state and we all know it. We'd step back years in gun rights as we'd find ourselves regulated back to only being able to protect ourselves at home, in our car.
    Hasn't happened in other states - why would Florida be so different? I do not buy into that.
    You will not rise to the occasion; you will fall back on your level of training.” Archilochus, 650 BC

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    Quote Originally Posted by Grapeshot View Post
    Hasn't happened in other states - why would Florida be so different? I do not buy into that.
    Personally, I don't care what has or has not happened in any other state. I don't live in any other state. I live in Florida, where I currently carry my firearm 99% of the places I wish to go during my week. Honestly, I don't even go to the post office any more and the wife doesn't mind going to the courthouse when we've had business there. We don't have kids, so, we have no need to be near a school, much less go in. So, it's an extremely rare occasion that I have to disarm during my daily activities.

    Perhaps you don't mind losing a one freedom to gain another, me, personally, I'm not willing to risk losing even one freedom I currently enjoy. I'm not willing to accept losing my favorite hardware store because his current sign makes carry illegal. Perhaps you see the loss of current carry freedoms as an acceptable loss to gain OC....I don't. To me, that wouldn't be a win. That would be trading one freedom for another.

    YMMV though. As I said, constitutional carry, through the courts, is the only way I see to gain OC without the risk.
    Last edited by JeepSeller; 08-12-2012 at 03:46 PM.

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    Regular Member 77zach's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by JeepSeller View Post

    YMMV though. As I said, constitutional carry, through the courts, is the only way I see to gain OC without the risk.

    Hope you're wrong. Oklahoma did it legislatively, I don't know how much more pro gun that legislature is, if any. Fl carry trapped the state of Fl into a corner in its Ft Pierce case so it's going to be fun watching them get out of it. I just can't see any judge going over the legislature's head and turning Fl into the "wild wild west."
    Last edited by 77zach; 08-12-2012 at 06:18 PM.
    “If the natural tendencies of mankind are so bad that it is not safe to permit people to be free, how is it that the tendencies of these organizers are always good? Do not the legislators and their appointed agents also belong to the human race? Or do they believe that they themselves are made of a finer clay than the rest of mankind? ” -Bastiat

    I don't "need" to openly carry a handgun or own an "assault weapon" any more than Rosa Parks needed a seat on the bus.

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    Quote Originally Posted by 77zach View Post
    Hope you're wrong.
    I'd like to be wrong myself. I've just been around too long. Unfortunately, I know too much about the "real" legislative process to have much faith. Last year's near misses with signage and the retention requirements should be a lesson to all.

    I'm convinced that had the people lobbying for the open carry bill not shot themselves in the foot by placing too much emphasis on the need for open carry to protect concealed carriers from accidental exposure and actually won open carry in Florida, we'd all be buying retention holsters, getting MORE training and I'd no longer be able to carry into my favorite hardware store because their silly sign now makes it illegal.

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    Regular Member 77zach's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by JeepSeller View Post
    and I'd no longer be able to carry into my favorite hardware store because their silly sign now makes it illegal.

    Yeah, the retention and training requirements were completely unacceptable. I just don't get why the retailers care. Large stores would be completely unaffected. Considering the stuff that I've seen on peopleofwalmart.com, open carry is quite mundane. I OCed into a Walmart in Virginia today and no one seemed to notice. And of course, any business is always free to ask anyone to leave for any reason.
    Last edited by 77zach; 08-12-2012 at 07:53 PM.
    “If the natural tendencies of mankind are so bad that it is not safe to permit people to be free, how is it that the tendencies of these organizers are always good? Do not the legislators and their appointed agents also belong to the human race? Or do they believe that they themselves are made of a finer clay than the rest of mankind? ” -Bastiat

    I don't "need" to openly carry a handgun or own an "assault weapon" any more than Rosa Parks needed a seat on the bus.

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    Quote Originally Posted by 77zach View Post
    Yeah, the retention and training requirements were completely unacceptable. I just don't get why the retailers care. Large stores would be completely unaffected. Considering the stuff that I've seen on peopleofwalmart.com, open carry is quite mundane. I OCed into a Walmart in Virginia today and no one seemed to notice. And of course, any business is always free to ask anyone to leave for any reason.
    We all seem to understand all that pretty easily. Obviously, it's the easy concepts that elude some of those retail goons. LOL

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    I hope Florida becomes an open carry state eventually.
    Last edited by WRX; 08-16-2012 at 05:15 AM.

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    Quote Originally Posted by 77zach View Post
    Considering the stuff that I've seen on peopleofwalmart.com.


    Hahahahaha

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    What will be Hammer’s compromise this time? Look for the “briefly” to be removed and the word “unintentional” placed in as the replacement in their sole effort “to protect licensed concealed carriers”. How many times did she use those words in the video posted above?

    And this all revolves around our ability to even get a standalone open carry bill sponsored and the even more difficulty of getting it out of committee.

    As for the signage issue talked about, NC has the law that allows signage and I haven’t seen to many places that prohibit CC. I have seen a few places that prohibit OC but never address CC. NC does have the no restaurant carry law which really sucks. Can’t carry into any place that sells alcohol for consumption on the premises. That pretty much eliminates most restaurants other than fast food places. If you want to worry about and protect against restrictive language that should be what we watch for.
    2A - "Shall not be infringed". Our fathers said so!
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    Quote Originally Posted by 77zach View Post
    Yeah, the retention and training requirements were completely unacceptable. I just don't get why the retailers care. Large stores would be completely unaffected. Considering the stuff that I've seen on peopleofwalmart.com, open carry is quite mundane. I OCed into a Walmart in Virginia today and no one seemed to notice. And of course, any business is always free to ask anyone to leave for any reason.
    The FRF simply does NOT want to deal with open carriers at all, Zach. They don't want to piss off gun owners, and they don't wanna deal with sniveling soccer moms complaining about 'evil guns' on the hips of non-LEOs.
    Director,
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    Campaign Veteran Schlitz's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by seminoles1999 View Post
    Marion Hammer: NRA Wants New Open-Carry Gun Law in Florida? NOT!
    Source: NRAvideos Youtube
    "BLAH BLAH BLAH WE ARE WORKING WITH COPS ON LANGUAGE WE CAN AGREE ON BLAH BLAH BLAH"


    YO, **** WORKING WITH THEM, THIS IS ABOUT US!!! WE THE PEOPLE. If we just work with the cops for every damn law we make we can kiss goodbye the 2nd, 4th, and 5th amendments. This is outrageous.

    "When law abiding people unintentionally have a firearm that is exposed to the sight of another person they should not be charged with a crime" < I feel language like this implies that those who do SHOULD be charged.

    I'm so sick of the NRA. Spouting neocon anti-rights crap with the words "LIBERTY FREEDOM" faded in the background of their video. What a sham.

    In my opinion, the legislative road is a dead end for OC in Florida. And, quite frankly, I believe it's a dangerous one given the inability to control the back-room dealings of politicians. The only way to get OC s through the courts by proving that Florida's outright ban on open carry is unconstitutional. If we leave it up to the politicians and political lobbying groups willing to sell us out for political gains, we're screwed.

    The legislative route gives our opponents the open door to create the rules. Declaring the outright ban on OC unconstitutional doesn't leave those doors open to them.
    QFT
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    [Miller vs. U.S., 230 F. Supp. 486, 489 (1956)]
    “There can be no sanction or penalty imposed upon one because of his exercise of constitutional rights.”
    [Sherar vs. Cullen, 481 F2d. 946 (1973)]

  21. #21
    Regular Member 77zach's Avatar
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    Yeah, there can't be any compromise with the police lobby. If they don't want to protect our rights then they can jump in a lake. Don't negotiate with these people.
    “If the natural tendencies of mankind are so bad that it is not safe to permit people to be free, how is it that the tendencies of these organizers are always good? Do not the legislators and their appointed agents also belong to the human race? Or do they believe that they themselves are made of a finer clay than the rest of mankind? ” -Bastiat

    I don't "need" to openly carry a handgun or own an "assault weapon" any more than Rosa Parks needed a seat on the bus.

  22. #22
    Regular Member hammer6's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Schlitz View Post
    "BLAH BLAH BLAH WE ARE WORKING WITH COPS ON LANGUAGE WE CAN AGREE ON BLAH BLAH BLAH"


    YO, **** WORKING WITH THEM, THIS IS ABOUT US!!! WE THE PEOPLE. If we just work with the cops for every damn law we make we can kiss goodbye the 2nd, 4th, and 5th amendments. This is outrageous.

    you're right dude-

    when this comes up again in the hearings or whatever, we need to be outspoken that we could give a flying **** what the police think, it truly is about us. the constitution wasn't written to please the police. we aren't even supposed to HAVE police.

  23. #23
    Founder's Club Member ixtow's Avatar
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    Why were your tongues tied two years ago?

    "This calls for immediate discussion!"

    The FSA is a terrorist organization. Don't negotiate with terrorists! They hate the Bill of Rights and will stop at nothing to destroy it.

    Screw the NRA. They get paid by the FSA to hand out bogus endorsements. More money than you'll ever be able to donate... The NRA is worse than Brady because they're pretending to be friends while stripping away (y)our Rights. Where did the NFA come from? It's expansions? Derp... The NRA has enacted more anti-gun legislation than all anti-gun organizations combined! Don't forget the battles lost by those who came before you. History didn't start the day you were born.

    The fact that the NRA openly states that they are working with terrorists, instead of We the People, is all the information you need.
    Last edited by ixtow; 08-15-2012 at 01:53 AM.
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    Thank you Marion Hammer for convincing me to drop my NRA membership.

  25. #25
    Regular Member hammer6's Avatar
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    okay, so i just listened to the video.... if the NRA gets it's "fix" to this law, people are STILL going to be arrested and tried, because how are they going to know intent of open carry? is the policeman now going to become judge and jury as to what is intentional or unintentional?


    this is a complete misrepresentation of what the CWFL holders of florida want- we want the option to open carry, and the option to carry concealed. period.


    if we let the NRA have it's way again, we are going to wind up with LESS than we have NOW.

    let's support florida carry instead...

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