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Why does private property get special protection from gun carriers?

DrMark

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It doesn't matter if you think it is ridicules, it is their property, end of story IMO. I have seen people ejected from restaurants for being to loud. Usually cigarettes are concealed and there is no concealed laws on the books for cigarettes. Plus smoking in a public place or business is illegal in most states now. Myself I find it ridicules that people just can't get the concept of property rights. And how much damage it does to open carry to act the fool when on another person's property.

BTW it is common for furniture stores to post trespass signs for food and drinks. That does not mean not drinking or eating that means not bringing them in the store.
You may wish to read the entire thread. He is not arguing against property rights or respecting a property owner's wishes; he's lamenting the discrepancy between guns and other objects with respect to government involvement in enforcing a property owner's wishes (or worse) absent the property owner expressing his concerns to the one offending him.

"...acting the fool?" What is this in reference to? Did you intend to reply to another post?

Do you have any picture of these trespass signs for food and drinks? It sounds like a fascinating concept; I've never heard of them or seen one.
 

WalkingWolf

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You may wish to read the entire thread. He is not arguing against property rights or respecting a property owner's wishes; he's lamenting the discrepancy between guns and other objects with respect to government involvement in enforcing a property owner's wishes (or worse) absent the property owner expressing his concerns to the one offending him.

"...acting the fool?" What is this in reference to? Did you intend to reply to another post?

Do you have any picture of these trespass signs for food and drinks? It sounds like a fascinating concept; I've never heard of them or seen one.

https://www.google.com/search?q=no+...GY3W8gSi04H4Ag&ved=0CJ0BELAE&biw=1166&bih=596

I have seen MORE "no food or drinks" signs than I have "No Weapons" signs. As far as my reply, there was a quote that was in it that I directly responded to. I have read the thread and as posting carried on I could see where it was going, IMO. As far as cigarettes or whatever he laments a property owner CAN trespass for any reason outside those protected by law. Please do not tell me how to interpret or how to post, I will ignore it, unless you are a mod.
 
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CCinMaine

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https://www.google.com/search?q=no+...GY3W8gSi04H4Ag&ved=0CJ0BELAE&biw=1166&bih=596

I have seen MORE "no food or drinks" signs than I have "No Weapons" signs. As far as my reply, there was a quote that was in it that I directly responded to. I have read the thread and as posting carried on I could see where it was going, IMO. As far as cigarettes or whatever he laments a property owner CAN trespass for any reason outside those protected by law. Please do not tell me how to interpret or how to post, I will ignore it, unless you are a mod.

I've seen more no food or drink signs too. How come when you stop at the gas station to get get snacks for when you go to the movies you shove them in your bag before going in instead of putting the snacks on the counter when you buy your ticket?

Sent from my Galaxy Nexus
 

WalkingWolf

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You miss the point entirely, intentionally, I suspect. The government should only get involved to enforce the property owners right to limit access to his property. The person would be "evicted by the hand of government" for refusing to leave private property when ordered to do so, not for the underlying cause for that order. The cause for the order to leave is unimportant and at the complete discretion of the owner (except for a few protected classes). In some cases the property owner or his agents may feel uncomfortable or think it dangerous to confront some people. In that case, they may ask the police to assist them by delivering the message that the visitors are unwelcome on the property. At that time, it is not unreasonable to offer an compromise to allow the visitor to stay; change the color of his shirt, modify his behavior, put the gun in the car etc. Only if the person refuses the compromise and/or refuses to leave should governments authority be used. If the visitor refuses all other options, it is reasonable he be removed by government force, arrest. At that point, he has crossed the line and become a criminal. All of this is a appropriate use of governmental police power, in my opinion.

The above is just about on the money, except some states have trespass laws specific to firearms. It is not even necessary to give a reason to have a person removed. Just tell the police they were told to leave and refused. The officer may or may not ask why, depending on their mood or department.
 

WalkingWolf

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I've seen more no food or drink signs too. How come when you stop at the gas station to get get snacks for when you go to the movies you shove them in your bag before going in instead of putting the snacks on the counter when you buy your ticket?

Sent from my Galaxy Nexus

I have seen a "no food and drink" sign at a Family Dollar no less. Not sure why but it is after all their business. I am used to seeing them at furniture stores, restaurants, mostly. And let's not forget the "no customers past this point" signs, almost every garage has one of these posted, doesn't matter what you are carrying.

[video=youtube;ZrdH4Tm8p-U]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZrdH4Tm8p-U[/video]
 
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peter nap

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Come on guys!

Walking Wolf, Dr. Mark, TFred, Etc.....you all are among the sane people here.

Disagree but don't do it like Sheriff and me:uhoh:
 

TFred

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You may wish to read the entire thread. He is not arguing against property rights or respecting a property owner's wishes; he's lamenting the discrepancy between guns and other objects with respect to government involvement in enforcing a property owner's wishes (or worse) absent the property owner expressing his concerns to the one offending him.
Exactly! The simple fact is that business owners do not call the police to kick out people carrying ballpoint pens or cigarettes, and any reasonable person would protest if they did.

If you don't believe that it's wrong to do this for guns when it's never done - and would be seen as ridiculous to do so - for other objects, tells me more about your attitude toward guns than you might want to admit. It tells me that you tacitly agree that guns are "different" than the many other objects that normal people carry as a matter of course every day.

That is the sole point of this thread. Agree or disagree, I believe it's been a useful discussion.

TFred
 

DrMark

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https://www.google.com/search?q=no+...GY3W8gSi04H4Ag&ved=0CJ0BELAE&biw=1166&bih=596

I have seen MORE "no food or drinks" signs than I have "No Weapons" signs. As far as my reply, there was a quote that was in it that I directly responded to. I have read the thread and as posting carried on I could see where it was going, IMO. As far as cigarettes or whatever he laments a property owner CAN trespass for any reason outside those protected by law. Please do not tell me how to interpret or how to post, I will ignore it, unless you are a mod.
Are you being intentionally obtuse? We've all seen "no food & drink" signs... they're quite common. You referred to "trespass signs for food and drinks" implying something different. Do you have pictures of these?

Why are you emphasizing to me that
a property owner CAN trespass for any reason outside those protected by law. That's pretty obvious, and I never suggested otherwise. Are you sure you've read the thread?

LOL... I'm not telling you how to post or playing moderator, I was providing advice to help you not to look like an idiot. Feel free to continue to ignore what I post!

 

WalkingWolf

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North Carolina
Are you being intentionally obtuse? We've all seen "no food & drink" signs... they're quite common. You referred to "trespass signs for food and drinks" implying something different. Do you have pictures of these?

Why are you emphasizing to me that
a property owner CAN trespass for any reason outside those protected by law. That's pretty obvious, and I never suggested otherwise. Are you sure you've read the thread?

LOL... I'm not telling you how to post or playing moderator, I was providing advice to help you not to look like an idiot. Feel free to continue to ignore what I post!


Just what do you think those signs are? If a person disregards the sign it IS a notice of trespass. You are the one that is trying to pick a fight, I responded to another member's post. Why do wish to argue the "obvious"? There is a option on this site as there are other sites if you do not like what I post. I don't need it, I can ignore your demands without it.
 

DrMark

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Hampton Roads, Virginia, USA
Come on guys!

Walking Wolf, Dr. Mark, TFred, Etc.....you all are among the sane people here.

Disagree but don't do it like Sheriff and me:uhoh:
I don't think there was really much disagreement until an out-of-stater showed up and started throwing about implications of Virginians not understanding/respecting property rights and acting like fools.
 

WalkingWolf

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Come on guys!

Walking Wolf, Dr. Mark, TFred, Etc.....you all are among the sane people here.

Disagree but don't do it like Sheriff and me:uhoh:

I agree with you, but I will continue to post my Opinion, and I will not be harassed. Sometimes I agree with somebody, sometimes I don't. I don't base it on popularity, I base it on what makes sense or is the law. I have no problem with TFred, and on another occasion I may agree with him. As has been stated it has nothing to do with objects, and everything to do with property rights.
 

DrMark

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Hampton Roads, Virginia, USA
Just what do you think those signs are? If a person disregards the sign it IS a notice of trespass. You are the one that is trying to pick a fight, I responded to another member's post. Why do wish to argue the "obvious"? There is a option on this site as there are other sites if you do not like what I post. I don't need it, I can ignore your demands without it.
Perhaps in your state that's a notice of trespass. Violation of VA's trespass statute (see §18.2-119) requires going on or remaining on the property after being told (verbal or sign) otherwise. Of course stores and regular homeowners have rules and policies... e.g. no cell phone use while ordering sandwiches, no food & drinks, no guns, no more than 10 items in the express lane, keep off the grass, no disruptive behavior in the mall. Just like I can on my property, the store owner can enforce their rules how they see fit –– "Stop that, don't do it again," "Don't worry about it, I don't mind," "You have to leave," etc. It's their property; it's up to them what the penalty (if any) should be. 11 items in the express lane does not fit the trespassing code. If they ask you to leave because of your 11 items and you do not, that fits the trespassing code. Do you not respect their property rights enough to let them apply their policies as they see fit, up to and including them asking us to leave?
 

TFred

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Before this drifts too much farther off topic and gets closed, one final thought.

From the OCDO "Press Center", I believe this helps to make my point:

Anthropologist Charles Springwood sums it up nicely when he commented that open carriers are trying to "naturalize the presence of guns, which means that guns become ordinary, omnipresent, and expected. Over time, the gun becomes a symbol of ordinary personhood."​

Until such a time that it becomes just as absurd to trespass someone from your business for carrying a gun as it would be to trespass someone for carrying a pen or a pack of cigarettes, we still have more work to do. And it seems that some of that work needs to start right here at home.

Thanks for the thoughtful posts, everyone.

TFred
 

WalkingWolf

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§ 18.2-119. Trespass after having been forbidden to do so; penalties.

If any person without authority of law goes upon or remains upon the lands,buildings or premises of another, or any portion or area thereof, afterhaving been forbidden to do so, either orally or in writing, by the owner,lessee, custodian or other person lawfully in charge thereof, or after havingbeen forbidden to do so by a sign or signs posted by such persons or by theholder of any easement or other right-of-way authorized by the instrumentcreating such interest to post such signs on such lands, structures, premisesor portion or area thereof at a place or places where it or they may bereasonably seen, or if any person, whether he is the owner, tenant orotherwise entitled to the use of such land, building or premises, goes upon,or remains upon such land, building or premises after having been prohibitedfrom doing so by a court of competent jurisdiction by an order issuedpursuant to §§ 16.1-253, 16.1-253.1, 16.1-253.4, 16.1-278.2 through16.1-278.6, 16.1-278.8, 16.1-278.14, 16.1-278.15, 16.1-279.1, 19.2-152.8,19.2-152.9 or § 19.2-152.10 or an ex parte order issued pursuant to § 20-103,and after having been served with such order, he shall be guilty of a Class 1misdemeanor. This section shall not be construed to affect in any way theprovisions of §§ 18.2-132 through 18.2-136.
 

The Airframer

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...But to kick someone out for carrying a pen, or a pack of cigarettes (and I say also a properly holstered firearm) is well beyond ridiculous, and nobody should be evicted by the hand of the government for simply carrying any of those inanimate objects.

Until we see that a legally carried firearm is no different than a pack of cigarettes, we are losing the battle to bring OC or any kind of carry to any semblance of "normal" within society.

TFred

I'm an outofstater from NC, living in VA and I totally agree!

Management from any restaurant/private property would not call the police if they saw the familiar rectangular pack of marlboros protruding from bubbas front pocket of his bluejeans despite the "NO SMOKING" sign posted out front.

However, I'm sure that if Nancy/Barrack the manager saw your Glock making an obvious bulge from your pants or you OC'd passed the "NO FIREARMS" sign, you'd be getting a visit from the boys in blue.

Neither are prohibited by state law, why should either deserve more attention than the other when either are not illegal?

I fear 2nd hand smoke worse than crossfire.
 

WalkingWolf

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I'm an outofstater from NC, living in VA and I totally agree!

Management from any restaurant/private property would not call the police if they saw the familiar rectangular pack of marlboros protruding from bubbas front pocket of his bluejeans despite the "NO SMOKING" sign posted out front.

However, I'm sure that if Nancy/Barrack the manager saw your Glock making an obvious bulge from your pants or you OC'd passed the "NO FIREARMS" sign, you'd be getting a visit from the boys in blue.

Neither are prohibited by state law, why should either deserve more attention than the other when either are not illegal?

I fear 2nd hand smoke worse than crossfire.

But you are still focusing on the object, not the act. It is the restaurants, or property owners prerogative to post restrictions for any reason within the law. Trespass was not invented by state law but common law, if a farmer posts no dumping signs and a person tosses garbage onto his property common law (which is recognized) is a trespass. Trespass is the "intentional, and wrongful" intrusion onto property. Intentionally ignoring a property owners wishes(signs) would be wrongful. It is completely up to the property owner as to what he wishes to ignore/accept or not. Clearly since there seems to be few signs concerning possession of a pack of cigarettes, it would appear it is not a concern.

Since you are from NC, it is against the law to ignore "no gun" signage. This should have been part of your CC training if you have a NC permit.
 

The Airframer

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But you are still focusing on the object, not the act. It is the restaurants, or property owners prerogative to post restrictions for any reason within the law. Trespass was not invented by state law but common law, if a farmer posts no dumping signs and a person tosses garbage onto his property common law (which is recognized) is a trespass. Trespass is the "intentional, and wrongful" intrusion onto property. Intentionally ignoring a property owners wishes(signs) would be wrongful. It is completely up to the property owner as to what he wishes to ignore/accept or not. Clearly since there seems to be few signs concerning possession of a pack of cigarettes, it would appear it is not a concern.

Since you are from NC, it is against the law to ignore "no gun" signage. This should have been part of your CC training if you have a NC permit.

Thank you again for emphasizing TFred's OP. Why are we inventing laws beyond the law? Posted or not, you might not agree with me smoking/carrying a pack of lucky strikes in your daycare-- or OCing a ninja-glock there either. What makes either illegal if not posted? Why should either warrant police intervention if it were only a civil disagreement?

And to answer your interrogation, I have a VA CHP that i didn't need to pay for a CC class to obtain. Virginia honors those that defend the rights we defend by not making us go to a class we could teach. Proud to serve and proud to defend your right to carry and your right to complain.
 

WalkingWolf

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Thank you again for emphasizing TFred's OP. Why are we inventing laws beyond the law? Posted or not, you might not agree with me smoking/carrying a pack of lucky strikes in your daycare-- or OCing a ninja-glock there either. What makes either illegal if not posted? Why should either warrant police intervention if it were only a civil disagreement?

And to answer your interrogation, I have a VA CHP that i didn't need to pay for a CC class to obtain. Virginia honors those that defend the rights we defend by not making us go to a class we could teach. Proud to serve and proud to defend your right to carry and your right to complain.

But it is wise to know the laws where you are at, both NC, and VA, or any other state. Again you are focusing on objects, not acts. No offense this is the same tactics of gun control proponents. They associate issues with the gun, not the responsible, or lack of responsibility of the person. IMO I do not believe I should be telling a business owner how to run their business. My choice is to either do business with them or hike it down the road, and give my business to somebody to my liking. And I was talking about posted NOT unposted, but if you are told to leave even if not posted I would leave. If I told someone to get off my property they have no right to complain, just get off the property.

Thank you for your service, but you are not the only one that served. I respect everybody's opinion, and give respect where it is due and earned. That includes young, old, both sexes, and even liberals. I do expect the same respect back.
 

DrMark

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Before this drifts too much farther off topic and gets closed, one final thought.

From the OCDO "Press Center", I believe this helps to make my point:
Anthropologist Charles Springwood sums it up nicely when he commented that open carriers are trying to "naturalize the presence of guns, which means that guns become ordinary, omnipresent, and expected. Over time, the gun becomes a symbol of ordinary personhood."​

Until such a time that it becomes just as absurd to trespass someone from your business for carrying a gun as it would be to trespass someone for carrying a pen or a pack of cigarettes, we still have more work to do. And it seems that some of that work needs to start right here at home.

Thanks for the thoughtful posts, everyone.

TFred
Well said.

Over the past 5-10 years, I've seen progress toward that goal in Virginia. People open carry across the state, individually and in groups (such as opencarry.org dining, VCDL picnics, local gov't meetings, and Lobby Day).

For the vast, vast majority of instances, it's ordinary. I agree that continuing to move further in that direction is a great thing to be a part of.
 

DrMark

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Hampton Roads, Virginia, USA
Management from any restaurant/private property would not call the police if they saw the familiar rectangular pack of marlboros protruding from bubbas front pocket of his bluejeans despite the "NO SMOKING" sign posted out front.

However, I'm sure that if Nancy/Barrack the manager saw your Glock making an obvious bulge from your pants or you OC'd passed the "NO FIREARMS" sign, you'd be getting a visit from the boys in blue.

Neither are prohibited by state law, why should either deserve more attention than the other when either are not illegal?

I fear 2nd hand smoke worse than crossfire.
I too dislike cigarette smoke. My brothers and I had an interesting discussion with our state Senator one year at Lobby Day about the fact that we hate cigarette smoke in restaurants but opposed the restaurant smoking ban. Again, that pesky property rights thing... the Democratic senator seemed a bit confused by it.

And I agree, neither object in your scenario should deserve more attention than the other when neither is illegal, but public sentiment is a slow tide to turn. In VA I think we're doing it, but it's a long-term thing.
 
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