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Thread: Recording Cops!!!,,, My Experiance!!!,,, My Failure!!!,,, My Shame!!!

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    Regular Member 1245A Defender's Avatar
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    Recording Cops!!!,,, My Experiance!!!,,, My Failure!!!,,, My Shame!!!

    Sooo we were at the night out in Port Orchard Tuesday night, the 7th.
    I, 1911er, batusai, trigger dr, ventu, EMNofSeattle, Squeak, viteus, psbart and kids..
    talked to lots of folks, answered lots of questions, gave out lots of fliers.
    many of us talked to various deputies, cops and the sheriff.
    Even the Mayor of P.O. stopped at our table and was very nice and supportive of OCDO!

    I have a audio/video device around my neck, camoflaged by a bandana.
    I recorded our group for a while just as I arrived, then turned it off.

    So far so good, everything is going very well.

    Sooo we see a deputy use his expandable batton to push up a tent to free it from the post
    so it can be removed and folded to take home.
    One of our group wondered if they were legal,
    I said, well, for sure, if youre a cop.
    I went on to add, that it has been hashed out on the forum before and
    I dont think anyone has ever found any law that prohibits us from carrying one.

    Sooo here is where my failures start...
    I went to ask the deputy about the law,,, concerning expandable battons...
    He was standing with about 4 other various LEOs.
    I did not turn on my recorder,,, after all, I was just going to ask a question,,, not have a confrontation!!!
    The deputy talked nicely to me about batton use, and confirmed that I too was legal to carry one.
    So far I was feeling good about having this night out, things were going good...

    Now the fun starts!!!
    A Cop standing in front of me pipes up and bruskly asks if that is a recorder around my neck?
    He sternly states that I am breaking the law, as washington is a two party consent state!
    He tells me that he can arrest me right now because he does not consent to being recorded!
    The ony time he would let me get in a word, was to say, It is NOT turned on rght now!
    I tried to say he had no expectation of privacy.
    I tried to tell him he was a public employee and on duty.
    He kept hammering on me that he could arrest me,
    and demanded that he could not be recorded,
    that I was breaking the law!

    Now this whole confrontation probably only lasted for about ONE minute, but seemed longer, like forever!
    I finally came to my senses,,, excused myself, turned, and walked away... Un detained, un molested, or arrested..

    I returned to our group, visibly shook up, 1911er looked ready to help hold me up, saying Easy Bob Every thing is going to be OK...

    Many thoughts I have had since.
    Why didnt the 4 other cops there, try to deflect his unlawful tirade? I know, this thin blue line!
    Why didnt I ask each of them for their business cards? The bad cop and four witnisses.
    Why didnt I go and tell the Sheriff that I was being cooerced and threatened by an indevidual in the crowd?
    Why was I almost home before I could think of a 20 year old supreme court case that makes recording legel,, state V. flora.....

    I have tried to be complete, factual and straight forward in this post,,, spitting it all out at once.

    I am still sooo mad at myself. It was my first encounter of any kind. I thought I would do much better.
    I hope to find out who and what this LEO was.
    If I can, I be thinking abot some remedial actions, dont know what Yet!
    EMNofSeattle wrote: Your idea of freedom terrifies me. So you are actually right. I am perfectly happy with what you call tyranny.....

    “If ever a time should come, when vain and aspiring men shall possess the highest seats in Government, our country will stand in need of its experienced patriots to prevent its ruin.”

    Stand up for your Rights,, They have no authority on their own...

    All power is inherent in the people,
    it is their right and duty to be at all times ARMED!

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    Honestly, it would not mattered if you cited 100 supreme court cases; the cop has his belief and that's what he is going to act upon (and why not, right?). And other policemen who may know different? Mums the word, wink wink.
    After all, its just the one policeman's butt on a sling, not theirs.

    Looks like they intimidated you into not recording but in this case, the only thing you would have recorded was your own arrest...if you are willing to go that route, go ahead. You would be in the right.

    I've had cops tell me I cannot do this or I cannot do that; if I believe I am correct, I don't argue with the policeman (he has his own opinion & I'm not going to change it), so I just ignore the police & continue on.
    Last edited by davidmcbeth; 08-11-2012 at 10:06 AM.

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    Regular Member OrangeIsTrouble's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by 1245A Defender View Post
    Many thoughts I have had since.
    Why didnt the 4 other cops there, try to deflect his unlawful tirade? I know, this thin blue line!
    Why didnt I ask each of them for their business cards? The bad cop and four witnisses.
    Why didnt I go and tell the Sheriff that I was being cooerced and threatened by an indevidual in the crowd?
    Why was I almost home before I could think of a 20 year old supreme court case that makes recording legel,, state V. flora.....
    Bob, I believe the answer to those questions is simply that you didn't prepare to take certain action or say certain things. Ask yourself what if and answer it and repeat it everytime something little comes up, so that when the time comes, your mind may sub consciously pull that answer to the front. An example; many years ago a few friends and I were up to no good. Beforehand I told a friend if any cop asks, we are jogging. Well what happened? A cop rolled up on them while I was a distance away and my friend was speechless but remembered what I said and said it. Done, easy! Told me later if I hadn't told him that, he wouldn't know what to say.

    You should know better than to ask a cop for legal information. I have a thread here about my silly self asking the police about carrying an impact baton and I promise you I will never ever talk to the police again except in certain circumstances where I will say what was per-memorized. "I am exercising my right to remain silent until I get an attorney". "Am I being arrested?" "Am I being detained?" "GOOOOOD DAY TO YOU!" and maybe a few others...

    f.y.i. I had a little encounter with tukwila pd as I applied for my cpl and I got real nervous as well. I already know not to argue with a cop and just let him go on but I was still scared I was going to get birked. With more interactions I hope I will get more comfortable speaking up and standing my ground. Reading around here for almost 3 years helps...


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    Regular Member Difdi's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by 1245A Defender View Post
    A Cop standing in front of me pipes up and bruskly asks if that is a recorder around my neck?
    He sternly states that I am breaking the law, as washington is a two party consent state!
    He tells me that he can arrest me right now because he does not consent to being recorded!
    The ony time he would let me get in a word, was to say, It is NOT turned on rght now!
    I tried to say he had no expectation of privacy.
    I tried to tell him he was a public employee and on duty.
    He kept hammering on me that he could arrest me,
    and demanded that he could not be recorded,
    that I was breaking the law!
    You could also have pointed out that using official authority under color of law to violate constitutional rights is a federal crime and offered to arrest him for it. It's not a breach of the peace, so the bluff would be empty, but he already proved he doesn't know the law. If he tried to arrest you it would be a false arrest, and if he cuffed you, it arguably would breach the peace (there are differences between arrest, custody and restraint, though they are rarely separated), since the sort of physical contact needed to cuff someone using standard police techniques is assault without the 'in the line of duty' exemption police enjoy. They lose that exemption, legally speaking, when making a false arrest.

    Quote Originally Posted by 1245A Defender View Post
    Why didnt the 4 other cops there, try to deflect his unlawful tirade? I know, this thin blue line!
    If they had backed you, it would cause trouble for them professionally (it's not right, but that's how it goes). If they had backed him, they'd have committed a federal felony (18USC241). Safer for them to just clam up.
    Last edited by Difdi; 08-11-2012 at 01:03 AM.

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    Regular Member Motofixxer's Avatar
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    It's hard to think straight aint it. Don't worry it gets easier with each time.
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    Campaign Veteran gogodawgs's Avatar
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    One of these times I'm going to look right at the officer and say...

    " go pound sand "

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    Regular Member Motofixxer's Avatar
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    If I can keep a straight face I might do this:

    http://youtube.com/watch?v=1n1BHJs5V5c
    Last edited by Motofixxer; 08-11-2012 at 02:18 AM.
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    Regular Member amlevin's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by gogodawgs View Post
    One of these times I'm going to look right at the officer and say...

    " go pound sand "
    I was once in a similar situation. The officer went through his "I could arrest you right now" routine. I told him then just do it and skip the BS. I'll let the Court school you in the law. That was the end of the encounter.

    Intimidation is a favorite tactic and when they're faced with reality many realize they've put their tallywhacker in the wringer. Usually disengage with an "I've got another call" or some other excuse to disengage.
    "If I shoot all the ammo I am carrying I either won't need anymore or more won't help"

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    Bob I am afraid they may have been having a little fun with you. Think about it like this you walked away with your freedom and you learned from the experience. so all in all you did just fine. Think about it like this you just got a little training for a bad encounter, hoping that never happens to you.

    You walked up to them nice and relaxed and they knew it so they decided to ruin your day because you were doing something they did not like but knew they could not do anything about.

    Just my .02 worth.

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    Quote Originally Posted by gogodawgs View Post
    One of these times I'm going to look right at the officer and say...

    " go pound sand "
    Back about 1972 this happemned to me;

    Cop, told me I was going to jail,

    Me, no I am not

    Cop, where do you think you are going

    Me, very calmly, we are going to the hospital

    I must say that was the maddest I have ever seen a Cop get he was red headed and his face was redder than his hair. The SGT had to make him leave the scene he really wanted a piece of me all 5-8 140 lbs of him LOL I did not go to jail but the SGT whom I knew sternly told me I had to stop doing s*** like that.

    Go pound sand may work a little better than my hospital phrase but I do not recommend it unless you have an independent party or two recording.

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    Quote Originally Posted by amlevin View Post
    I was once in a similar situation. The officer went through his "I could arrest you right now" routine. .
    Me too, several times. Once at my house I had treasury agents at my door trying to a scare me ... I just slammed the door in their face and told them to get off my land. They left. (they wanted to know how I got a IRS agent's home address -- I sued him)

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    Regular Member Freedom1Man's Avatar
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    Bob, don't worry I think we have all choked up at a bad police encounter, those of us who've had a bad police encounter at least.

    Part of why I don't back down is because I learned how to stand my ground by way of a Drill Sargent screaming in my face and being 'forced' to stand still for it. Do I still make mistakes, read the forums posts, yes. Are you and I the only ones who make mistakes, still have our nerves rattled, comply beyond legal requirement (well only when being threatened by an officer), yes.

    There is no shame in what you did. You were being peaceful, friendly, and polite (it would seem) so the shame is not yours it is theirs. They have just proven to you again that cops cannot be trusted.

    So, relax, take a deep breath, and use the experience to harden yourself for next time.
    Last edited by Freedom1Man; 08-11-2012 at 04:54 PM.
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    Regular Member sudden valley gunner's Avatar
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    Bob you did fine, the bullying tactic is done on purpose to keep you off guard.

    It gets easier if you have future encounters.

    Since I have been through those encounters I would have looked at him and turned it on and said "You are being recorded, anything you wanna say for the courts?"
    I am not anti Cop I am just pro Citizen.

    U.S. v. Minker, 350 US 179, at page 187
    "Because of what appears to be a lawful command on the surface, many citizens, because
    of their respect for what only appears to be a law, are cunningly coerced into waiving their
    rights, due to ignorance." (Paraphrased)

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    Regular Member Ajetpilot's Avatar
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    Bob, do you know where he was from? Was it Kitsap County deputy, or Port Orchard police? The first step is to find out who he is and where he works. He needs to be schooled.

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    Regular Member Batousaii's Avatar
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    Hang in there Bob, The reason you (or anyone) froze at that moment and couldnt remember to site case law is simple. It's the same/simular reaction that anyone can have when suddenly placed in to a threatening situation, and the brain switches to simple survival mode. In order to overcome survival mode, you have to give the mind an alternative mode to switch in to by habbit through training and practice. Young troops in combat have been known to stand there staring at the enemy shooting at them as their mind attempts to access a reaction, training kicks in (or the sergeant slaps em), and they kick in to action. But until it's happened a few times, or until they intensify training, the reaction is simmular... facing a threat, be it physical, or mental, can place a person in a blank headspace.

    - Don't be mad at yourself, or beat yourself up... You did nothing wrong, and trouble did not find you. Being human is a pain brotha.

    Bat
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    Regular Member Boomboy007's Avatar
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    Arrow Much like firearms deployment, we revert to training.

    As you have no doubt read, studied, and learned over your time dealing with firearms, when the poop hits the fan, we all revert to our training. Thus, those of us who practice more often are usually better prepared than those of us who do not. Dealing with belligerent police officers is exactly the same thing. The situation starts getting heavy and you experience an adrenaline dump (which is why you were so shaken upon returning to your comrades), and that interferes with logic and fine motor skills. The reason that the police suffer from this far less often is that, after a few months, they have dealt with heated situations enough that the adrenal response is dampened.

    The best advice that I can give anyone is to just leave the cops alone. Just refuse to have any consensual conversation with police officers. I am repeatedly astounded at the frequency with which I read accounts on this and other boards about their LEO encounters ending up being pretty good. For some reason, many of us in the "gun crowd" seem to have this unexplainable need to buddy up with the cops.

    Don't get me wrong. We need police. I am not anti police. But remember, police officers are acting as agents of the state when on duty. They are NOT your friend, and every conversation that you have with them is a field interview, and may well end up written as a report, whether or not you are notified of the fact. Also, police are allowed by law, and trained in academy, to lie. He can say "Sure, it is legal to open carry a loaded gun in your vehicle without a CPL!", follow you to your vehicle, and then legally arrest you for doing the very thing that he said was permissible. Guess who is responsible for knowing the law? YOU.

    If you want to be pals, then meet the guy, or gal, at a local watering hole when they are off duty. Otherwise, I would recommend not talking to strangers with guns and authority to restrict your freedom and liberty at will.

    And keep that recorder handy!
    "The strongest reason for the people to retain the right to keep and bear arms is, as a last resort, to protect themselves against tyranny in government." Thomas Jefferson

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    Regular Member Batousaii's Avatar
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    ...For some reason, many of us in the "gun crowd" seem to have this unexplainable need to buddy up with the cops.
    ...
    I'd venture a guess, that most of us as gun owners, especially those of us who carry, have a similar mentality as many of the police. We visualize ourselves as the good guys, and have a natural inclination to protect those around us. At least thats how many of us through our raising view the police regardless of case law and examples that may be contrary to that image. To many, the cops are the good guys, and rubbing elbows with them in a positive encounter reinforces that we are all on the same side. It is also nice to encounter good police (the majority i believe) who remember what it was to be a citizen, and what the right to keep and bear arms meant to them before joining the empire. Some unfortunately fall under Darth Vader's spell, and those power hungry bully types give a bad name to the rest. Fact is, i have several that i consider friends on the force, would invite them to BBQ if i ever threw one, and those that keep my company believe strongly in the rights of the people, and respect their civic role. There really are good cops... but there really are some crappy bullies out there too... I myself do not approach an officer unless i really feel he/she is presenting friendly open minded posture, everything mentioned here on this board is the safe way to manage on self as an open carrier. If an officer gives me a positive supportive comment, then I am more than happy to chit-chat and exchange casual conversation. Otherwise.... "Am i being detained" stay in it's holster at the side of my tongue.

    Be Smart out there peeps.

    Bat
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    Regular Member Mainsail's Avatar
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    Don't make concessions, don't debate, don't argue; politely turn around and put your hands behind your back in the handcuff position.

    You'll have called his bluff. He has two choices; he can tuck tail and concede, or he can arrest you. If he does the former, you win. If he does the latter, you really win.

    Make it a goal in life not to argue with idiots.

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    Regular Member sudden valley gunner's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mainsail View Post
    Don't make concessions, don't debate, don't argue; politely turn around and put your hands behind your back in the handcuff position.

    You'll have called his bluff. He has two choices; he can tuck tail and concede, or he can arrest you. If he does the former, you win. If he does the latter, you really win.

    Make it a goal in life not to argue with idiots.

    I agree with most of this except I am not turning my back voluntarily to cops........
    I am not anti Cop I am just pro Citizen.

    U.S. v. Minker, 350 US 179, at page 187
    "Because of what appears to be a lawful command on the surface, many citizens, because
    of their respect for what only appears to be a law, are cunningly coerced into waiving their
    rights, due to ignorance." (Paraphrased)

  20. #20
    Regular Member DeltaOps's Avatar
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    You did nothing wrong. My guess is that the LEO did it to see what kind of reaction he would get from you, maybe even testing you to watch and see if you faulter. All so that he could gat a good laugh when you walk away. LEOs like that make me vey mad. He caught you off guard and you froze, it has happened to me and it happens to the best of them. It it hard to say what I owuld have done in that situation, but I may have just looked at him, said, oh ok, shook my head and walked away.

    Maybe he felt threatened too, it is hard saying. LEO's are always taught to take control. So as long as you was asking the questions, you had total control of the conversation. So he in turn flipped it and now he was in control. Either way it was not right. Keep on keeping on. Maybe some day we can meet up and share some stories and our views on life and stuff.
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  21. #21
    Regular Member Mainsail's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by DeltaOps View Post
    My guess is that the LEO did it to see what kind of reaction he would get from you, maybe even testing you to watch and see if you faulter. All so that he could gat a good laugh when you walk away.
    That's how I was reading it. He was up there on his high horse not at all happy that some mere citizen would be so bold as to carry a sidearm openly, and then to have the gall to speak to him as though they were equals. He was likely mocking the OP, all for laughs later or to elevate himself in the eyes of the other officers.

    That's why I say call his bluff.

    One of my favorite responses to this attitude is: "Officer, for a public servant you sure seem to have a problem serving the public." Sometimes they need to be reminded of what they are. Nonetheless, I still prefer not to argue.
    Last edited by Mainsail; 08-12-2012 at 12:41 PM.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Batousaii View Post
    I'd venture a guess, that most of us as gun owners, especially those of us who carry, have a similar mentality as many of the police. We visualize ourselves as the good guys, and have a natural inclination to protect those around us. At least thats how many of us through our raising view the police regardless of case law and examples that may be contrary to that image. To many, the cops are the good guys, and rubbing elbows with them in a positive encounter reinforces that we are all on the same side. It is also nice to encounter good police (the majority i believe) who remember what it was to be a citizen, and what the right to keep and bear arms meant to them before joining the empire. Some unfortunately fall under Darth Vader's spell, and those power hungry bully types give a bad name to the rest. Fact is, i have several that i consider friends on the force, would invite them to BBQ if i ever threw one, and those that keep my company believe strongly in the rights of the people, and respect their civic role. There really are good cops... but there really are some crappy bullies out there too... I myself do not approach an officer unless i really feel he/she is presenting friendly open minded posture, everything mentioned here on this board is the safe way to manage on self as an open carrier. If an officer gives me a positive supportive comment, then I am more than happy to chit-chat and exchange casual conversation. Otherwise.... "Am i being detained" stay in it's holster at the side of my tongue.

    Be Smart out there peeps.

    Bat
    Owning a firearm has nothing to do with my take on society. I feel it is my duty as a United States citizen to defend my fellow countrymen, and I would do so with or without a firearm in my possession; although it would be WITH because I never leave home without protection. I wish more people felt the same way, because it is extremely disheartening to watch the news and hear about another shooting or stabbing where there were numerous bystanders that could have done something and didn't. I could not set around and watch someone get hurt without trying to assist them in some way, and I will agree those that do carry firearms for personal protection are more aware of their surroundings, and probaly are more apt to help than those that don't. I don't understand how anyone could walk out of their house without the means to protect their family, because that is the most important thing in this life. As for officers, I do not feel a connection with them at all. I will be a protector of liberty and rights when I become a Peace Officer, and I will take it upon myself to report any type of misconduct that has become so popular in today's society. We are more likely to be approached by the bad apple today than the good, and that is truly sad. It used to be one bad apple out of the bunch, now we are lucky to get one good apple out of them. With the militirization of our officers it is no wonder why they have the attitude they do, and something needs to change. I will say there is a good man now in charge of KSP post 14 here in Ashland, and I will be proud to work under such a decent individual. I am proud of the State Police in my area, but I can't say the same for all the rest.
    "I never in my life seen a Kentuckian without a gun..."-Andrew Jackson

    "Guard with jealous attention the public liberty. Suspect every one who approaches that jewel. Unfortunately, nothing will preserve it but downright force. Whenever you give up that force, you are ruined."-Patrick Henry; speaking of protecting the rights of an armed citizenry.

  23. #23
    Regular Member rapgood's Avatar
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    Folks, you might also want to look closely at all of RCW § 9.73.030 to find what I think is an important exception to the requirement of consent of all parties for recording conversations.

    RCW 9.73.030.

    (1) Except as otherwise provided in this chapter, it shall be unlawful for any individual, partnership, corporation, association, or the state of Washington, its agencies, and political subdivisions to intercept, or record any:

    (a) Private communication … without first obtaining the consent of all the participants in the communication;

    (b) Private conversation, by any device electronic or otherwise designed to record or transmit such conversation regardless how the device is powered or actuated without first obtaining the consent of all the persons engaged in the conversation.

    (2) Notwithstanding subsection (1) of this section, wire communications or conversations … (b) which convey threats of extortion, blackmail, bodily harm, or other unlawful requests or demands, … whether or not conversation ensues, may be recorded with the consent of one party to the conversation.

    I agree that State v. Flora is unambiguous in its holding that LEO does not have a reasonable expectation of privacy when they are performing their official duties (i.e., on duty).

    The way I read 9.73.030, if a LEO threatens to arrest you for recording the conversation, they are making an “unlawful demand” (illegal act under color of the law -- RCW 9A.80.010(1)(a)) and, as such, the statute requires only that you give consent, although, I think that getting the consent on the recording is still required, as it also is required under 18 USC 2511 (the federal Wiretap Act requires that only one participant needs to give consent). HINT: I’d make the recorded consent on my recorder prior to entering into a conversation, and without stopping the recording between my giving my consent and my contact with the LEO.

    Then, if they do demand that you stop recording, or that they are going to arrest you for making the recording, the way I read the statute, they are committing a gross misdemeanor for the violation of RCW 9.73.030. RCW 9.73.080(1).

    If I wanted to really call their bluff, if other LEOs are present and have heard the demand, I would request one of the other LEOs to effect an arrest of the LEO for violating 9.73.030, or at a minimum, have them cite that officer for the violation. Then, I would follow through and turn a copy of the recording along with my statement over to the appropriate prosecutor.
    Last edited by rapgood; 08-12-2012 at 10:46 PM.
    Rev. Robert Apgood, Esq.

    A right cannot be lost by exercising it. McDonald v. Chicago, 561 U.S. 3025, 130 S. Ct. 3020, 3021, 177 L. Ed. 2d 894 (2010) (citing Near v. Minn., 283 U.S. 697 (1931)).

    Although IAAL, anything I say here is not legal advice. No conversations we may have privately or otherwise in this forum constitute the formation of an attorney-client relationship, and are not intended to do so.

  24. #24
    Regular Member rapgood's Avatar
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    and, don't you think that they read this board, too?
    Rev. Robert Apgood, Esq.

    A right cannot be lost by exercising it. McDonald v. Chicago, 561 U.S. 3025, 130 S. Ct. 3020, 3021, 177 L. Ed. 2d 894 (2010) (citing Near v. Minn., 283 U.S. 697 (1931)).

    Although IAAL, anything I say here is not legal advice. No conversations we may have privately or otherwise in this forum constitute the formation of an attorney-client relationship, and are not intended to do so.

  25. #25
    Regular Member sudden valley gunner's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by rapgood View Post
    and, don't you think that they read this board, too?
    I know for a fact they read these boards, especially when they have an "encounter"
    I am not anti Cop I am just pro Citizen.

    U.S. v. Minker, 350 US 179, at page 187
    "Because of what appears to be a lawful command on the surface, many citizens, because
    of their respect for what only appears to be a law, are cunningly coerced into waiving their
    rights, due to ignorance." (Paraphrased)

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