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Stopping Power of Handguns

Shotgun

Wisconsin Carry, Inc.
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As for the preceding discussion, in the majority of instances hollow point ammo has plenty of penetration to reach the CNS (central nervous system.) The greater issue is that the CNS is a comparatively small target and getting a hit on it with anything other than a slow and deliberately-aimed shot is going to be more of a matter of luck than anything else for 99.99% of shooters. Complicating things further is the great likelihood that either you or the threat, and quite possibly both, will be moving at the time. Further still, if the threat has partial cover you may not have any part of the CNS available as a target. If I'm going to have little more than a leg, foot or arm to shoot at I want to make sure the bullet isn't just punching a clean hole, but is tearing up as much bone, muscle and circulatory system as possible. A number of years ago, after my nephew was shot in both calves of his legs as he ran from a guy-- and he was able to keep running without slowing down. He told me that it only felt like a brief cramp or expanding sensation as the bullets passed clean through his legs. I'm fairly certain those were not HP rounds going through him and lucky for him they were not or I think we would have lost large chunks of flesh and required much more than the band aids and antibiotics.

Statistically, around 80% of people shot with a handgun survive. There's nothing magical about their stopping power and the adage that "the handgun is what you use to fight your way to your long gun" has good deal of wisdom in it. Of course the point isn't to kill the threat, the point is to stop the threat, which can even be accomplished with no shots fired at all, or even by a miss-- although I'm sure a hit on target is, all thing considered, more persuasive than a miss. Which leads me to another tidbit of information: when a threat stops due to a shots from a handgun it is more likely due to the fact that his will to threaten has been changed more than his ability to remain a threat. Yes, you've made him change his mind more than you've removed his ability to harm you.

Discussions of calibers have gone round-and-round for years. They might have a little bit that's interesting about them, but on the whole it's a discussion of a fairly insubstantial aspect of the overall topic. By far, having a completely reliable gun is much more important than what's shooting out of it. The other factor that is more important is, as mentioned already, mindset-- combined with some tactical knowledge. Superior mindset and tactics have defeated superior firepower plenty of times and will continue to do so. Yes, having better accuracy and more powerful rounds are not bad things on the whole, but if you listed the things that you want to have going for you in a gunfight from the most important to the least important, you'll find power and accuracy usually a few spots down from the top, and rightfully so.
 

HandyHamlet

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As a serious (is there any other kind?) practitioner of Gunkata, level ten thank you, size is irrelevant.
I can kill with my mind. One thought and my adversary's brain implodes.

Once I get to level 15 I can travel back in time and space to kill all my enemy's relatives and ancestors too.
That's pretty sweet.
 

Law abider

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Ellsworth Wisconsin
"one shot stop"?
I don't know anyone who (intentionally) fires one shot, then stops to see if the threat is willing to give up.
[Yes, Zimmerman did, but given the type of gun he had, it likely jammed.]
Hit the attacker until he clearly gives up the fight or starts to fall down.
For most people I know, he's going to have at least 2 or 3 holes by then, no matter how fast he falls.

This site will give you data by caliber, bullet weight & type, & even brand, about the % of one shot stops, penetration depth, and 'diameter' (which I'm guessing is the final diameter of the bullet).
This is all based on actual shootings.
So if you use ammo that's 80% effective as a OSS, then hit the attacker with several rounds, you're highly likely to stop the attack.

Looking at various calibers & their OSS effectiveness:
.22 ranges from 21 to 40% [I'm surprised it's that high]
38 special - 47 to 65%
.380 - 55 to 71%
9mm - 58 to 83%
.40 - 61 to 94%
45ACP - 57 to 96%
357 magnum - 78 to 96%

Tht's a good sige for me. It gives stats on each type of ammo the number of shootings and stopping power. Much better than the Hatcher values. AS always miryads of other variables play in. Good thanks MKE.
 

Law abider

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The best round for you to carry will be the most powerful round/pistol that you can shoot well, and can afford to practice with (note that reloading your own makes pretty much any load affordable).

If that means .22LR, so be it. Practice and keep shooting it well. If you can handle .45 Super, .357, or 10mm, go for it. Modern 9mm is quite effective, especially with the advances in expanding bullet technology that have been made in the last decade.

The vast majority of criminals (21/24, according to FBI statistics) run away when a gun is presented. 2 out of 24 will turn and run as soon as it is discharged towards them. The remaining 1 of 24 will not stop until they are dead or disabled, and that is where caliber and shot placement really matters.

(If you want an objective way to compare loads, look at 2 things: Mass and Velocity of the projectile. Also note that mass of the gun will make it more comfortable to shoot)

Thanks Amaixner. Need to practice more with my 357. Now I created a target with a 4 1/2 feet by 3 feet particle board onto which I taped a 6 by 6 square cardboard on to which I had drawn concentric circles. I fired from 30 feet 16 shots and got 6 on the cardboard while others hit around it on the board. That was with 38 shells. Now I know that the 357 ammo will give more of a kick so that will mean that I'll have to minimise it somehow like I did with the 38.
 

Law abider

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http://www.abaris.net/info/ballistics/hatcher-table.htm

For those who want more information ... its just a mathematical formula .. not based on any testing. How accuracy the formula is? I have not idea.

David, the RSP numbers, what do they represent practically speaking? Like were they shot into a gel or some other thing? or are they arbitary numbers so the larger the number, the more it's effectiveness.

Let mee look at the numbers again...
 

Shotgun

Wisconsin Carry, Inc.
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Thanks Amaixner. Need to practice more with my 357. Now I created a target with a 4 1/2 feet by 3 feet particle board onto which I taped a 6 by 6 square cardboard on to which I had drawn concentric circles. I fired from 30 feet 16 shots and got 6 on the cardboard while others hit around it on the board. That was with 38 shells. Now I know that the 357 ammo will give more of a kick so that will mean that I'll have to minimise it somehow like I did with the 38.


That doesn't tell us a whole lot that is helpful because we don't know if these were rapid fire or slow and deliberate shots.

Also, keep in mind that if you're shooting for defense purposes, about 80% of defensive shootings occur at a distance under 21 feet-- and most of those are much closer-- within a step or two away.

Consequently it makes sense for defensive shooting training to recreate as closely as possible the conditions most likely to occur in real life. Here's what I suggest:

Use a standard paper plate or 8.5"X11" sheet of paper as your target zone. If you put a paper plate or sheet of paper over your chest, you'll see that they cover about the same area that you'd like to get hits on a human target because a hit in this area is very likely to hit something critical: lungs, heart, major blood vessels, spinal cord, spleen, liver. Shoot as rapidly as you can without rounds hitting off the plate or paper sheet. And do this from various distances, say, 5-feet, 7-feet, 10-feet, 15-feet and further. Just keep in mind that most shootings are likely to occur at the closer distances, so most training shooting should reflect that. Since only 20% of real life shootings are likely to happen at ranges greater than 20 feet, it makes sense to limit about 20% of the training shooting to the longer distances. As I said, shoot as rapidly as you can until the rounds start to fall outside the paper plate or sheet of paper because once they start landing off the target it's an indication you're shooting too quickly. You'll discover that the speed at which you can shoot and still maintain "combat accuracy" varies with the distance to the target. You'll also discover that with time and practice you'll eventually gain more speed at each particular distance. Take it slowly at first and let the speed develop -- and it will-- gradually with time and practice. Speed comes with smoothness, so concentrate on smoothness and let the speed take care of itself.

The same exercise can be used with variations, for example you can do it with one-handed or two-handed shooting, weak-handed shooting. Shooting while moving forward or backwards or laterally. Use different guns if you have them too, because you may find your performance varies by caliber or gun model. Later you can throw in some head shots too, and keep in mind that from the front, the effective target area is a triangular area formed by lines across the eyebrows and down to the point just below the nose. Not a huge target area, really.

Bottom line, this sort of practice will have a much greater applicability to real-life shooting than simply standing still and popping rounds off at a stationary target at long distances.
 

Law abider

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That doesn't tell us a whole lot that is helpful because we don't know if these were rapid fire or slow and deliberate shots.

Also, keep in mind that if you're shooting for defense purposes, about 80% of defensive shootings occur at a distance under 21 feet-- and most of those are much closer-- within a step or two away.

Consequently it makes sense for defensive shooting training to recreate as closely as possible the conditions most likely to occur in real life. Here's what I suggest:

Use a standard paper plate or 8.5"X11" sheet of paper as your target zone. If you put a paper plate or sheet of paper over your chest, you'll see that they cover about the same area that you'd like to get hits on a human target because a hit in this area is very likely to hit something critical: lungs, heart, major blood vessels, spinal cord, spleen, liver. Shoot as rapidly as you can without rounds hitting off the plate or paper sheet. And do this from various distances, say, 5-feet, 7-feet, 10-feet, 15-feet and further. Just keep in mind that most shootings are likely to occur at the closer distances, so most training shooting should reflect that. Since only 20% of real life shootings are likely to happen at ranges greater than 20 feet, it makes sense to limit about 20% of the training shooting to the longer distances. As I said, shoot as rapidly as you can until the rounds start to fall outside the paper plate or sheet of paper because once they start landing off the target it's an indication you're shooting too quickly. You'll discover that the speed at which you can shoot and still maintain "combat accuracy" varies with the distance to the target. You'll also discover that with time and practice you'll eventually gain more speed at each particular distance. Take it slowly at first and let the speed develop -- and it will-- gradually with time and practice. Speed comes with smoothness, so concentrate on smoothness and let the speed take care of itself.

The same exercise can be used with variations, for example you can do it with one-handed or two-handed shooting, weak-handed shooting. Shooting while moving forward or backwards or laterally. Use different guns if you have them too, because you may find your performance varies by caliber or gun model. Later you can throw in some head shots too, and keep in mind that from the front, the effective target area is a triangular area formed by lines across the eyebrows and down to the point just below the nose. Not a huge target area, really.

Bottom line, this sort of practice will have a much greater applicability to real-life shooting than simply standing still and popping rounds off at a stationary target at long distances.

Thanks Shotgun. I will follow your instruction to the tee. Give me some time to gather results from the various Scenarios you have proposed. The good news is that my oldest daughter asked me if I wanted another gun for Christmas or my birthday. So now that I have a 357/38 do you or others have another recomendation?
 

Shotgun

Wisconsin Carry, Inc.
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Thanks Shotgun. I will follow your instruction to the tee. Give me some time to gather results from the various Scenarios you have proposed. The good news is that my oldest daughter asked me if I wanted another gun for Christmas or my birthday. So now that I have a 357/38 do you or others have another recomendation?

Yeah! A semi auto of some sort! What model .357 do you have?

p.s. You raised your daughter right!
 

Shotgun

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I got a 357 revolver, German made. I realize it has it's limitations. What do you suggest?

That's a complex question. There's no perfect gun-- if there were we'd all be carrying the same thing!

As I said before the most important factor is reliability, because no gun no matter how powerful, accurate or expensive is worth betting your life on if it doesn't have a proven history of complete reliability with the ammo of choice. You also need to consider your lifestyle, activities and how you dress when selecting the gun, and where you'll carry the gun--because the size, weight and overall comfort affect how well the gun conceals-- if that is an issue. Plus it affects how willing you are to carry the gun. A huge heavy gun might become a pain in the ass to carry, and a gun left at home because it's a pain to carry all the time is a gun not protecting you. You also need to consider the cost and what you're willing to spend. What caliber you shoot with proficiency also is a huge factor. So you have to consider all these factors and while no gun is perfect for everyone, or even for anyone, if you weigh these factors you'll find a gun that is a suitable compromise and that will be the gun for you.

Ideally you'll be able to test shoot guns beforehand to see how it fits, how well you shoot it, whether you can easily operate all the controls, etc. And I suggest thoroughly testing the gun with the ammo you plan to carry to make sure it's reliable. Each gun may have quirks so what works well in another person's gun may not work as well in yours even if it's the same model gun. Yes, the "good stuff" in ammo is more expensive to shoot, but your life is worth it to burn some good stuff up to assure yourself of its reliability in your gun.

But I suggested a semi-auto, because while revolvers are not obsolete by any stretch, they are quite limited in terms of rounds on board and slow to reload. Semi's also are flatter and tend to conceal better.

Oh yeah, also take into consideration the ease with which you can get holsters and magazine for your gun. If you have some exotic or rare model you may have very limited choices or pay premium $$ for this stuff. If you stick with proven mainstream brands, like Glock, Smith and Wesson, Springfield, Ruger and so on... you'll find magazines, holsters and other accessories much more readily available and and more reasonable cost.
 

AaronS

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May 2, 2009
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Milwaukee, Wisconsin, USA
I have to agree with Shotgun, I can not tell you what will work for you.
Fit is everything. Just take your time, and find one that fits your hand well. AFTER you find a few that fit you well, start looking at reputation and price.
It is just me, but I would not want to carry any gun smaller then a 9mm. For me, I would never carry anything like a .22 or even .380. I want more power.
I am thinking .40 or .45 would be good. Again, thats just me. Nothing wrong at all with a well made 9mm in my mind.
If it helps you at all, I am now looking at a Springfield XDm sub-compact, in .40 S&W. The thing fits my hands very good. Just wish it was made in America.:cry:
My wife is telling me to just get a compact Kimber (made in USA). I like the way she thinks. She knows I love .45ACP.

The thing is, I could get two XDMs for the price of one Kimber...
 

Law abider

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Thanks Shotgun and Aarons. I have fired several rounds of 38sp just to get used to the gun for the first time. Was able to hold it well. I am going to shoot several rounds of 357 shells to get used to the recoil. I am going to take my time looking around for my Christmas/birthday gun and yes, will not get anything less than what you mentioned Aaron. Both of you along with interceptor, Paul, Protias MKE etc... have really helped me. I'll keep you posted on how I am doing. One other issue, not to get too off base. My blond wifey had me put my gun at my mom's house 22 miles away bec I don't have a small gun safe. She says the gun looks dangerous. I have looked at Rockland biometric safes. I read that they can open once in a great while with someone else's finger. I haven't seen my gun in a week and am missing it. I plan to get it this weekend and practice some more but have to return it the same day.:(
 
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WalkingWolf

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Thanks Shotgun and Aarons. I have fired several rounds of 38sp just to get used to the gun for the first time. Was able to hold it well. I am going to shoot several rounds of 357 shells to get used to the recoil. I am going to take my time looking around for my Christmas/birthday gun and yes, will not get anything less than what you mentioned Aaron. Both of you along with interceptor, Paul, Protias MKE etc... have really helped me. I'll keep you posted on how I am doing. One other issue, not to get too off base. My blond wifey had me put my gun at my mom's house 22 miles away bec I don't have a small gun safe. She says the gun looks dangerous. I have looked at Rockland biometric safes. I read that they can open once in a great while with someone else's finger. I haven't seen my gun in a week and am missing it. I plan to get it this weekend and practice some more but have to return it the same day.:(

I think you need to talk to your wife, and educate her that guns are safe, it is people who are not. I you have children and it is a double action revolver you only need a padlock behind the trigger on the trigger guard to make it safe. If you are worried about theft, bolt a heavy tool box to a closet floor, and put a Harley lock on it. From what I have seen of those safes it would probably work just as good.
 

HandyHamlet

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In all reality,theres really no such thing as stopping power,or knockdown power.

A tool is a tool is a tool. In the right hands and with a little luck it is an effective tool. In the left hands you could probably kick 'em in the nuts while they fumble with the right hand safety.



And they all lived happily ever after.


;)
 

protias

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Thanks Shotgun and Aarons. I have fired several rounds of 38sp just to get used to the gun for the first time. Was able to hold it well. I am going to shoot several rounds of 357 shells to get used to the recoil. I am going to take my time looking around for my Christmas/birthday gun and yes, will not get anything less than what you mentioned Aaron. Both of you along with interceptor, Paul, Protias MKE etc... have really helped me. I'll keep you posted on how I am doing. One other issue, not to get too off base. My blond wifey had me put my gun at my mom's house 22 miles away bec I don't have a small gun safe. She says the gun looks dangerous. I have looked at Rockland biometric safes. I read that they can open once in a great while with someone else's finger. I haven't seen my gun in a week and am missing it. I plan to get it this weekend and practice some more but have to return it the same day.:(

How do you shoot shells? :p

Ask you wife what looks more dangerous, that pretty firearm or these guys?

latin-kings-76c9d105840e6ff9.jpg
 
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