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Thread: Gun Violence Is A Disease...

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    Regular Member Beretta92FSLady's Avatar
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    Gun Violence Is A Disease...

    Seat-belts for guns? Glitter guns? Make modifications to the gun so that it won't fire when the user is angry? Rubber bullets?--wait, we have those!

    Article snippet:
    ...They want a science-based, pragmatic approach based on the reality that we live in a society saturated with guns and need better ways of preventing harm from them.... http://seattletimes.nwsource.com/htm...lichealth.html

    And then the sticker!:
    ...About 260 million to 300 million firearms are owned by civilians in the United States; about one-third of American homes have one. Guns are used in two-thirds of homicides, according to the FBI. About 9 percent of all violent crimes involve a gun - roughly 338,000 cases each year....
    Apparently Violent Crime, and Guns do go together, but not as often as other things.

    More:
    -"Host" factors: What makes someone more likely to shoot, or someone more likely to be a victim. One recent study found firearm owners were more likely than those with no firearms at home to binge drink or to drink and drive, and other research has tied alcohol and gun violence. That suggests that people with driving under the influence convictions should be barred from buying a gun, Wintemute said.
    I know, it's anecdotal, but: I have zero alcohol in my house, can't drink the stuff, for health reasons. The latter portion of the quote is interesting though, that a person is not responsible enough to own a vehicle, but is still responsible enough to own a firearm.--then we get into the whole: Who determines degree of Responsibility; Driving is a privilege, and firearm ownership is not; etc.
    Last edited by Beretta92FSLady; 08-11-2012 at 12:44 PM.
    I don't mind watching the OC-Community (tea party 2.0's, who have hijacked the OC-Community) cannibalize itself. I do mind watching OC dragged through the gutter. OC is an exercise of A Right. I choose to not OC; I choose to not own firearms. I choose to leave the OC-Community to it's own self-inflicted injuries, and eventual implosion. Carry on...

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    Regular Member Jack House's Avatar
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    If someone is trying to kill me or my family, odds are I'm going to be pretty pissed off about it. Especially if the object of their violence is someone I really care about.

    I can control my anger, which means I'll only do whats necessary to stop the attack. I'd rather not be rendered incapable of stopping the attack at all, because some ******* decided only those feeling terrified and terrified only are allowed to fire their weapons in legitimate self defense.

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    Regular Member Beretta92FSLady's Avatar
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    Hmm, maybe there's an algorithm they can construct that will determine who is terrified, and who is angry. From personal experience: One can help but get real pissed-off, in the moment, that you are cornered into pulling the trigger. Some people though, have sh*t in their ears.
    I don't mind watching the OC-Community (tea party 2.0's, who have hijacked the OC-Community) cannibalize itself. I do mind watching OC dragged through the gutter. OC is an exercise of A Right. I choose to not OC; I choose to not own firearms. I choose to leave the OC-Community to it's own self-inflicted injuries, and eventual implosion. Carry on...

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    But a person CAN drink and own and operate a vehicle ... just not when they are impaired.

    I don't drink but have alcohol -- if a guest wishes to imbibe. If I want the effects, I just twirl around .. its free and no taxes (yet).

    Its the one that draws faster is usually not the victim...sucks to be slow.
    Last edited by davidmcbeth; 08-11-2012 at 01:02 PM.

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    Regular Member Beretta92FSLady's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by davidmcbeth View Post
    But a person CAN drink and own and operate a vehicle ... just not when they are impaired.

    I don't drink but have alcohol -- if a guest wishes to imbibe. If I want the effects, I just twirl around .. its free and no taxes (yet).

    Its the one that draws faster is usually not the victim...sucks to be slow.
    True, you are a victim until you pull the trigger, trust me.

    A side note: victimization is a self-inflicted crime.
    I don't mind watching the OC-Community (tea party 2.0's, who have hijacked the OC-Community) cannibalize itself. I do mind watching OC dragged through the gutter. OC is an exercise of A Right. I choose to not OC; I choose to not own firearms. I choose to leave the OC-Community to it's own self-inflicted injuries, and eventual implosion. Carry on...

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    Quote Originally Posted by Beretta92FSLady View Post
    True, you are a victim until you pull the trigger, trust me.
    .
    Ha, I BeliEVE !


    Keep the faith sister!

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    Regular Member Gil223's Avatar
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    And Science Has The Cure??

    Originally Posted by Beretta92FSLady
    Article snippet: ...They want a science-based, pragmatic approach based on the reality that we live in a society saturated with guns and need better ways of preventing harm from them.... http://seattletimes.nwsource.com/htm...lichealth.html
    Along these same lines here's an excerpt from an article at PoliticalOutcast.com:
    Right on cue, doctors around the country are zeroing in on gun violence. Like every other scientific discipline, medical professionals have been brainwashed to believe that science holds all of the answers to life’s mysteries. Like good empiricists, these doctors are convinced that lab work and statistical data are the best indicators of why sociopaths act sociopathically.
    Good approach! Attack the problem at it's roots - those who misuse firearms, not the gun itself.

    Want to know some of the stunning evidence that they have found? I thought you might. One interesting bit of wisdom is that gun ownership is a precursor to gun violence. Wow. In a nation of gunowners, where it is estimated that the number of guns is between 260-300 million (it is probably even higher than this), it is somehow statistically relevant that gun ownership precedes gun violence. This fact is about as helpful as the fact that car ownership tends to precede auto fatalities, or that home ownership precedes house fire deaths; one does not predict the other. Gun ownership has nothing to do with gun violence. If it did, it would be far more significant of a number and the relationship would be much stronger.
    This statistic is commonly accepted as accurate, in spite of (or perhaps because of) the extremely wide variance of 40M (19%), and 300,000,000 is probably closer to correct.

    For example, it has been estimated that one-third of American homes have guns (again, the number is probably much higher). The FBI estimates that two-thirds of all homicides are committed with guns, yet only 9% of violent crimes actually involve guns. This is highly significant. A homicide is a violent crime where a death results. This would fall into the 9% category. However, attempted homicide, robberies, carjackings, domestic disputes, gang violence, etc, that involve guns also are a part of that 9%. This means that 89% of violent crime does not involve a gun. In a nation where guns number almost 1:1 of the population, this lack of correlation is much more important than the miniscule relationship where they do seem to correlate.
    Way to make a point!! It's about time somebody rolled out that stat...

    It should be incredibly surprising to most readers how little guns actually contribute to violent crime despite the outcry from the media and these medical doctors. It’s almost as if more guns discourage gun violence, rather than promote it; and this is precisely what pro-gun and Second Amendment advocates have been saying all along.
    ALMOST?? It is PRECISELY what "more guns" do.

    Rather than blaming the gun, perhaps doctors should be focusing on the people. Without seeing the data, I can confidently predict that 100% of violent crimes involve people. Of those 100%, every one of them had parents. This seems to be a much stronger predictor than gun ownership: having parents always precedes violent crime.
    Although the preceding argument is intrinsically invalid, it is equally as valid as finding legal "scientific means" by which to eliminate acts of violence committed with firearms. Eliminate the sociopaths... without violating their Constitutional rights! As Hamlet said, "Aye, there's the rub." Pax...
    Last edited by Gil223; 08-13-2012 at 04:22 PM.
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    Regular Member Jack House's Avatar
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    Totally agree. It's obviously my gun's fault that anytime I am put in a situation where I feel threatened, my first instinct is to withdraw from the area. All because I carry a gun everywhere.

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    Regular Member SFCRetired's Avatar
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    Again, folks, what we are seeing is an appeal to emotions coupled with Goering's "big lie" technique (although I doubt he is the one who originated it).

    The majority do not want to hear facts, that might require them to think and apply logic to a problem. They will respond to an emotional appeal that does not require the expenditure of effort, especially mental effort. I don't understand this, never will, but have observed it in action too many times to disbelieve it.

    What the good doctors need to be doing is looking at the root cause of violence (hint: it ain't the guns) and defining a means of predicting violent behavior before the behavior surfaces. Once they have defined the means of predicting the various types of violent behavior, they then need to focus on the methods of treating the underlying causes.

    It is much easier and more of an emotional appeal to blame the firearms and call for their banning. What people, especially those who are afraid to take responsibility for themselves and their families, do not realize is that any gun ban/confiscation only guarantees that the criminals will know their intended victims are virtually defenseless.
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    Regular Member Beretta92FSLady's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by SFCRetired View Post
    [snippers]

    It is much easier and more of an emotional appeal to blame the firearms and call for their banning. What people, especially those who are afraid to take responsibility for themselves and their families, do not realize is that any gun ban/confiscation only guarantees that the criminals will know their intended victims are virtually defenseless.
    My daughter, last night, as we were walking along Seattle waterfront snapping photos, had asked me if Seattle has a high murder rate. I told her that one murder is too high. We then got on the topic of firearms, and I told her that Chicago has a year of Seattle's murders in one weekend...she was shocked. I told her that Chicago is one of the most restrictive places in the Nation regarding firearms.

    The I went on to tell her--being the Liberal that I am--that, in-part, Economics, Institutional 'ism's', Education, Macheezmo, etc., are to blame for violence, including gun violence.
    Last edited by Beretta92FSLady; 08-13-2012 at 05:10 PM.
    I don't mind watching the OC-Community (tea party 2.0's, who have hijacked the OC-Community) cannibalize itself. I do mind watching OC dragged through the gutter. OC is an exercise of A Right. I choose to not OC; I choose to not own firearms. I choose to leave the OC-Community to it's own self-inflicted injuries, and eventual implosion. Carry on...

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    Quote Originally Posted by SFCRetired View Post

    What the good doctors need to be doing is looking at the root cause of violence
    Its the doctors for delivering all the hoodlums into the world ! They should know just looking at their eyes who are good and who are bad.

    BAD DOCTORS! The cause of all our woes.

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    Regular Member WalkingWolf's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by SFCRetired View Post
    Again, folks, what we are seeing is an appeal to emotions coupled with Goering's "big lie" technique (although I doubt he is the one who originated it).

    The majority do not want to hear facts, that might require them to think and apply logic to a problem. They will respond to an emotional appeal that does not require the expenditure of effort, especially mental effort. I don't understand this, never will, but have observed it in action too many times to disbelieve it.

    What the good doctors need to be doing is looking at the root cause of violence (hint: it ain't the guns) and defining a means of predicting violent behavior before the behavior surfaces. Once they have defined the means of predicting the various types of violent behavior, they then need to focus on the methods of treating the underlying causes.

    It is much easier and more of an emotional appeal to blame the firearms and call for their banning. What people, especially those who are afraid to take responsibility for themselves and their families, do not realize is that any gun ban/confiscation only guarantees that the criminals will know their intended victims are virtually defenseless.

    What the good doctors should be doing is doctoring(is that a word?). Save people's lives, and fix health problems. Unless they deal directly with GSW it really is not their job. Society when it was claimed to be wild and out of control was actually tame. The more civilized(laws) we get the more violent we become. A armed society is a polite society. Carry a big stick and speak softly. I think some people feel like a worm on a big hook, and big brother is holding the pole.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Beretta92FSLady View Post
    Snip* and I told her that Chicago has a year of Seattle's murders in one weekend...she was shocked. I told her that Chicago is one of the most restrictive places in the Nation regarding firearms.

    The I went on to tell her--being the Liberal that I am--that, in-part, Economics, Institutional 'ism's', Education, Macheezmo, etc., are to blame for violence, including gun violence.
    You are correct.

    Living in close proximity to that horrid state, I can attest to the fact that many violent crimes are occuring in CHI-town. I can not speak for Seattle but I know I do not go to Illinois unless I absolutely have to.

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    Regular Member Jack House's Avatar
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    Yeah, a lot of people tend to forget that about the UK. While our homicide rates are higher, they're still only about 3 for 100,000 versus Britain's 1 out of every 3 violent crime rate.

    So ask you this, which nation is safer?

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    use it as a defense ... sorry I shot that guy, but I have a disease .. can't help it

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    Quote Originally Posted by Beretta92FSLady View Post
    My daughter, last night, as we were walking along Seattle waterfront snapping photos, had asked me if Seattle has a high murder rate. I told her that one murder is too high. We then got on the topic of firearms, and I told her that Chicago has a year of Seattle's murders in one weekend...she was shocked. I told her that Chicago is one of the most restrictive places in the Nation regarding firearms.

    The I went on to tell her--being the Liberal that I am--that, in-part, Economics, Institutional 'ism's', Education, Macheezmo, etc., are to blame for violence, including gun violence.
    Hope you included welfare/foods-stamps in your list of "causes". Dependency on the government will do most horrible things to family values.

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    Quote Originally Posted by WalkingWolf View Post
    What the good doctors should be doing is doctoring(is that a word?). Save people's lives, and fix health problems. Unless they deal directly with GSW it really is not their job. Society when it was claimed to be wild and out of control was actually tame. The more civilized(laws) we get the more violent we become. A armed society is a polite society. Carry a big stick and speak softly. I think some people feel like a worm on a big hook, and big brother is holding the pole.
    Very well said... you must be a doctor!!

    Seriously... science(studies) can't help with fixing bad behavior(other than drugging to submission) because bad behavior is more than likely a spiritual problem. Science doesn't lead to an effective way of dealing with "spiritual" problems.

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    Regular Member Beretta92FSLady's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by georg jetson View Post
    Hope you included welfare/foods-stamps in your list of "causes". Dependency on the government will do most horrible things to family values.
    If poverty didn't exist then there would be no need for Government intervention. Poverty is that cause of welfare/food-stamps. Most people I know that are on Government assistance, don't like it, but it's about all they got left to go to. A family of nine that I know, gets 736 bucks a month in cash assistance.--hardly living high on the hog.
    I don't mind watching the OC-Community (tea party 2.0's, who have hijacked the OC-Community) cannibalize itself. I do mind watching OC dragged through the gutter. OC is an exercise of A Right. I choose to not OC; I choose to not own firearms. I choose to leave the OC-Community to it's own self-inflicted injuries, and eventual implosion. Carry on...

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    Quote Originally Posted by Beretta92FSLady View Post
    If poverty didn't exist then there would be no need for Government intervention.
    The government does intervene... poverty still exists. There goes your argument...

    Quote Originally Posted by Beretta92FSLady View Post
    Poverty is that cause of welfare/food-stamps.
    What does this mean?

    Quote Originally Posted by Beretta92FSLady View Post
    Most people I know that are on Government assistance, don't like it, but it's about all they got left to go to. A family of nine that I know, gets 736 bucks a month in cash assistance.--hardly living high on the hog.
    High on the hog? Stay to the point.

    Apparently it's enough to keep them dependent. A dependency that deteriorates family values, creates a culture of "entitlements". It's further exacerbated by government housing which, when put together with the other subsidies, offers just enough of a living not to have to worry about food or shelter.

    However, it is a concern for these basic needs that builds character. Having to rely on real people with faces that you have to ask face to face for help... this relationship works toward having one rely on themselves to solve their problems.

    Government does NOTHING to help poverty but removes the one thing that can reduce crime statistics. It removes personal responsibility. It removes the needy/helper relationship which also works to prevent crime because it works at the person to person(relationship) level.
    Last edited by georg jetson; 08-15-2012 at 01:49 PM.

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    Regular Member Beretta92FSLady's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by georg jetson View Post
    The government does intervene... poverty still exists. There goes your argument...
    Poverty is a matter of numbers, and degrees. Without Government, poverty would be much higher than it is; fortunately, we won't know since Government will always be there. And your times of yore that never existed, will not come to frution.

    What does this mean?
    Nothing to concern yourself with.

    Apparently it's enough to keep them dependent. A dependency that deteriorates family values, creates a culture of "entitlements". It's further exacerbated by government housing which, when put together with the other subsidies, offers just enough of a living not to have to worry about food or shelter.

    However, it is a concern for these basic needs that builds character. Having to rely on real people with faces that you have to ask face to face for help... this relationship works toward having one rely on themselves to solve their problems.

    Government does NOTHING to help poverty but removes the one thing that can reduce crime statistics. It removes personal responsibility. It removes the needy/helper relationship which also works to prevent crime because it works at the person to person(relationship) level.
    I see. So you denounce what I stated in my post, then offer Right-wing Self-Determinist crapola--good call.
    Last edited by Beretta92FSLady; 08-15-2012 at 02:01 PM.
    I don't mind watching the OC-Community (tea party 2.0's, who have hijacked the OC-Community) cannibalize itself. I do mind watching OC dragged through the gutter. OC is an exercise of A Right. I choose to not OC; I choose to not own firearms. I choose to leave the OC-Community to it's own self-inflicted injuries, and eventual implosion. Carry on...

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    Quote Originally Posted by Beretta92FSLady View Post
    Poverty is a matter of numbers, and degrees. Without Government, poverty would be much higher than it is; fortunately, we won't know since Government will always be there. And your times of yore that never existed, will not come to frution.
    You "claim" poverty would be much higher without government and then say "we won't know". Ridiculous statement and irrelevant to the point.

    Of course what we're speaking of is government involvement in solving poverty by stealing from some and giving some of that to whom they qualify... AND of course keeping a significant portion of its plunder for itself. This type of involvement does exactly what I said it does. Our government was not always in such criminal business.


    Quote Originally Posted by Beretta92FSLady View Post
    Nothing to concern yourself with.

    I see. So you denounce what I stated in my post, then offer Right-wing Self-Determinist crapola--good call.
    No. I was just making the point that it would be useful to include REAL reasons for crime when explaining. Though I waste my keyboard tapping... your politics and your religion won't allow it

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    Regular Member Gil223's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Beretta92FSLady View Post
    Poverty is that cause of welfare/food-stamps.
    To which georgjetson asked:
    What does this mean?
    And your response:
    Quote Originally Posted by Beretta92FSLady View Post
    Nothing to concern yourself with.
    Do you not know what your statement meant, or do you believe the answer to be so complex as to exceed the intellectual capacity of 'normal people' to understand?

    As I see it, poverty and welfare have a symbiotic, circular relationship, where each feeds off the other - which is exactly what the "Nanny-State" manipulators desire. Keep the welfare recipients dependent upon the government for basic subsistence, and they will acquiesce to virtually any governmental demands. Welfare, as Obama wants it structured, reverts to a total handout, not a 'hand up'! It will not help people to change their lot through job skills development, nor will it increase their motivation to become self-sufficient.

    What welfare does do, is it gives the productive, working citizen a not undeserved sense of pride, because s/he is self-supporting. However, along with the good comes the not-so-good... the self-inflicted 'pat on the back' is frequently accompanied by some degree of resentment, in the form of "Why should those who choose not to work, benefit from the taxes taken from my earnings?" And, as has been said many times, eventually we may reach the point where those who choose not to work outnumber those whose work supports them - then what? (Google 'Cloward-Piven Strategy of Orchestrated Crisis' - a strategy of premeditated, manufactured crisis, designed to create the collapse of a Democratic Republic.) Pax...
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    Regular Member twoskinsonemanns's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by georg jetson View Post
    Apparently it's enough to keep them dependent. A dependency that deteriorates family values, creates a culture of "entitlements". It's further exacerbated by government housing which, when put together with the other subsidies, offers just enough of a living not to have to worry about food or shelter.

    However, it is a concern for these basic needs that builds character. Having to rely on real people with faces that you have to ask face to face for help... this relationship works toward having one rely on themselves to solve their problems.

    Government does NOTHING to help poverty but removes the one thing that can reduce crime statistics. It removes personal responsibility. It removes the needy/helper relationship which also works to prevent crime because it works at the person to person(relationship) level.
    Good points georg.

    We recently hired a gentleman at my facility. About a week after he was hired he quit because his government subsidized housing went up from $75 a month to $125 a month. So he quit! HA! This is what our government does.
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    Regular Member sudden valley gunner's Avatar
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    Teach a man to fish and he will provide for himself.

    Give a man a fish and tell him he needs to vote for you for more fish..............
    I am not anti Cop I am just pro Citizen.

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    Regular Member SFCRetired's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by sudden valley gunner View Post
    Teach a man to fish and he will provide for himself.

    Give a man a fish and tell him he needs to vote for you for more fish..............
    Actually that is supposed to read: "Teach a man to fish and he will spend all day in a boat drinking beer and catching nothing!!"

    I have no argument with the second part of the statement, however.

    Welfare, as it was originally instituted (I'm not that old, but Mom and Dad lived through the Great Depression), was intended to allow a man to stay with and provide for his family until he could get a job and get back on his feet.

    What it has become for far too many is a way of life that is passed down to the next generation. There has got to be a way to humanely wean these people off the government welfare rolls and restore a sense of dignity and self-worth. Being given your livelihood, without having to do any meaningful work for it, has got to be one of the most degrading and dehumanizing acts that a government is capable of against its own citizenry.
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