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Thread: Accidental or Negligent?

  1. #1
    Campaign Veteran Schlitz's Avatar
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    Smile Accidental or Negligent?

    A coworker of mine was carrying his RIA compact .45 (series 70) in condition 2 as always. He was moving a bed and bent over to pick it up when *BOOM* his 1911 burned his butt cheek and put a round through his pants. He was confused when I told him that it is unsafe to carry with the hammer down. For one, to get to that position you have to pull the trigger with a round in the tube when your intent is not to fire the weapon. Pull trigger - don't want to fire weapon = "does not compute." I'm assuming his shirt caught the hammer and before the half cock position it became free and had enough energy to send the firing pin into the primer.

    I post this just as a reminder that cocked and locked is the safest way to carry a chambered 1911 (series 70).
    “The claim and exercise of a constitutional right cannot be converted into a crime.”
    [Miller vs. U.S., 230 F. Supp. 486, 489 (1956)]
    “There can be no sanction or penalty imposed upon one because of his exercise of constitutional rights.”
    [Sherar vs. Cullen, 481 F2d. 946 (1973)]

  2. #2
    Regular Member Beretta92FSLady's Avatar
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    It sounds more accidental than negligent. Although, if it is safer to carry CAL then...
    I don't mind watching the OC-Community (tea party 2.0's, who have hijacked the OC-Community) cannibalize itself. I do mind watching OC dragged through the gutter. OC is an exercise of A Right. I choose to not OC; I choose to not own firearms. I choose to leave the OC-Community to it's own self-inflicted injuries, and eventual implosion. Carry on...

  3. #3
    Regular Member OC for ME's Avatar
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    Both....(freak?) accident that it went off, negligent that the fella don't trust 1/2 (if available) or full cocked.
    "I would rather be exposed to the inconveniences attending too much liberty than to those attending too small a degree of it." - Thomas Jefferson.

    "Better that ten guilty persons escape, than that one innocent suffer" - English jurist William Blackstone.
    It is AFAIK original to me. Compromise is failure on the installment plan, particularly when dealing with so intractable an opponent as ignorance. - Nightmare

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    Holster?

    Sent from my SGH-T989 using Tapatalk 2

  5. #5
    Campaign Veteran Schlitz's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by kcgunfan View Post
    Holster?

    Sent from my SGH-T989 using Tapatalk 2
    probably some uncle mike's crap. I'll ask him when he returns from lunch.
    “The claim and exercise of a constitutional right cannot be converted into a crime.”
    [Miller vs. U.S., 230 F. Supp. 486, 489 (1956)]
    “There can be no sanction or penalty imposed upon one because of his exercise of constitutional rights.”
    [Sherar vs. Cullen, 481 F2d. 946 (1973)]

  6. #6
    Regular Member Beretta92FSLady's Avatar
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    I know of a person at the range that owns a 1911...he cocked, but didn't lock, and holstered. Shot himself in the ars.
    I don't mind watching the OC-Community (tea party 2.0's, who have hijacked the OC-Community) cannibalize itself. I do mind watching OC dragged through the gutter. OC is an exercise of A Right. I choose to not OC; I choose to not own firearms. I choose to leave the OC-Community to it's own self-inflicted injuries, and eventual implosion. Carry on...

  7. #7
    Campaign Veteran Schlitz's Avatar
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    When asked about the holster he said he had an IWB leather holster. That's it. He has no idea what kind it was. I'm assuming open top.
    “The claim and exercise of a constitutional right cannot be converted into a crime.”
    [Miller vs. U.S., 230 F. Supp. 486, 489 (1956)]
    “There can be no sanction or penalty imposed upon one because of his exercise of constitutional rights.”
    [Sherar vs. Cullen, 481 F2d. 946 (1973)]

  8. #8
    Regular Member Beretta92FSLady's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Schlitz View Post
    When asked about the holster he said he had an IWB leather holster. That's it. He has no idea what kind it was. I'm assuming open top.
    Does he know the type of round he carries?--the count? IWB?--Supertuck?
    I don't mind watching the OC-Community (tea party 2.0's, who have hijacked the OC-Community) cannibalize itself. I do mind watching OC dragged through the gutter. OC is an exercise of A Right. I choose to not OC; I choose to not own firearms. I choose to leave the OC-Community to it's own self-inflicted injuries, and eventual implosion. Carry on...

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    Quote Originally Posted by Schlitz View Post
    A coworker of mine was carrying his RIA compact .45 (series 70) in condition 2 as always. He was moving a bed and bent over to pick it up when *BOOM* his 1911 burned his butt cheek and put a round through his pants. He was confused when I told him that it is unsafe to carry with the hammer down. For one, to get to that position you have to pull the trigger with a round in the tube when your intent is not to fire the weapon. Pull trigger - don't want to fire weapon = "does not compute." I'm assuming his shirt caught the hammer and before the half cock position it became free and had enough energy to send the firing pin into the primer.

    I post this just as a reminder that cocked and locked is the safest way to carry a chambered 1911 (series 70).
    Negligence is my take ...

  10. #10
    Regular Member Fallschirmjäger's Avatar
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    Unsafe method of carry = negligent, same as if you carried a knife by the blade and cut your palm.

  11. #11
    Campaign Veteran Schlitz's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Beretta92FSLady View Post
    Does he know the type of round he carries?
    doubt it. And he is not the type to spend more than 20 bucks on a holster so i doubt it's a supertuck.
    “The claim and exercise of a constitutional right cannot be converted into a crime.”
    [Miller vs. U.S., 230 F. Supp. 486, 489 (1956)]
    “There can be no sanction or penalty imposed upon one because of his exercise of constitutional rights.”
    [Sherar vs. Cullen, 481 F2d. 946 (1973)]

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    Quote Originally Posted by Fallschirmjäger View Post
    Unsafe method of carry = negligent, same as if you carried a knife by the blade and cut your palm.
    Agreed. ND

    No doubt about it.

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    His negligence caused an accident.

    The real question is, is he going to learn from this and be more responsible? Or will he merely stop carrying with one in the pipe?

  14. #14
    Campaign Veteran Schlitz's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by PistolPackingMomma View Post
    His negligence caused an accident.

    The real question is, is he going to learn from this and be more responsible? Or will he merely stop carrying with one in the pipe?
    after informing him about the difference between series 80 and series 70 and the proper way to carry a loaded 1911 I think he will be switching to cocked/locked.

    can you just imagine if someone at the table across from you at a restaurant bent over to pick something up and a round just goes off next to you and your family? luckily no one was hurt. it just makes me think though, how many people are out and about every day around me concealing a series 70 1911 in condition 2?

    *sigh* if open carry was legal in FL we would probably see more people carrying in more secure OWB holsters. Not that you can't safely carry a 1911 IWB, or that this was at all the holsters fault, but a condition 2 1911 in a nice OWB not underneath however many layers of clothes probably wouldn't have got the hammer caught on clothes... (assuming that is exactly what happened, I can't imagine another way of it being set off just from bending over.)
    “The claim and exercise of a constitutional right cannot be converted into a crime.”
    [Miller vs. U.S., 230 F. Supp. 486, 489 (1956)]
    “There can be no sanction or penalty imposed upon one because of his exercise of constitutional rights.”
    [Sherar vs. Cullen, 481 F2d. 946 (1973)]

  15. #15
    Regular Member Beretta92FSLady's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by PistolPackingMomma View Post
    His negligence caused an accident.

    The real question is, is he going to learn from this and be more responsible? Or will he merely stop carrying with one in the pipe?
    It depends on how bad that AD stung.
    I don't mind watching the OC-Community (tea party 2.0's, who have hijacked the OC-Community) cannibalize itself. I do mind watching OC dragged through the gutter. OC is an exercise of A Right. I choose to not OC; I choose to not own firearms. I choose to leave the OC-Community to it's own self-inflicted injuries, and eventual implosion. Carry on...

  16. #16
    Regular Member DangerClose's Avatar
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    I'm curious if he has one of those 2-pound triggers 1911 guys love to brag about.

  17. #17
    Campaign Veteran Schlitz's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by DangerClose View Post
    I'm curious if he has one of those 2-pound triggers 1911 guys love to brag about.
    Nah, it was just a stock compact RIA 1911. Someone who doesn't care to know what kind of holster they carry with isn't interested in a trigger job.

    “The claim and exercise of a constitutional right cannot be converted into a crime.”
    [Miller vs. U.S., 230 F. Supp. 486, 489 (1956)]
    “There can be no sanction or penalty imposed upon one because of his exercise of constitutional rights.”
    [Sherar vs. Cullen, 481 F2d. 946 (1973)]

  18. #18
    Regular Member WalkingWolf's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Schlitz View Post
    Nah, it was just a stock compact RIA 1911. Someone who doesn't care to know what kind of holster they carry with isn't interested in a trigger job.

    I was going to ask how the grip safety got depressed but I see, beaver tail grip safety. There was a reason Browning designed it with the original grip safety. I like straps over or under my hammers, depending on the gun, at the very least a leather thong. Still confused as to how the trigger got pulled in a IWB holster. May be a defective firearm. Half cock has a notch machined in it, so without the trigger pulled and the grip safety pressed it will not fire, unless dropped. Beaver tails do get caught on clothing, I personally would never use them.

  19. #19
    Regular Member DCKilla's Avatar
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    Can somebody explain how the 1911 grip safety works?

  20. #20
    Regular Member WalkingWolf's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by DCKilla View Post
    Can somebody explain how the 1911 grip safety works?
    Well I will try~~When the safety is not depressed it blocks the trigger bar from rearward movement that would engage the sear. When depressed the link or bar off that is inside the 1911 raises up to allow access to the sear.

  21. #21
    Campaign Veteran Schlitz's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by WalkingWolf View Post
    I was going to ask how the grip safety got depressed but I see, beaver tail grip safety. There was a reason Browning designed it with the original grip safety. I like straps over or under my hammers, depending on the gun, at the very least a leather thong. Still confused as to how the trigger got pulled in a IWB holster. May be a defective firearm. Half cock has a notch machined in it, so without the trigger pulled and the grip safety pressed it will not fire, unless dropped. Beaver tails do get caught on clothing, I personally would never use them.
    The grip safety had nothing to do with this since he carried hammer down, not even on half cock.



    Can somebody explain how the 1911 grip safety works? .

    The protrusion sticking out of the grip safety sits up against the trigger bar, which only moves straight back when the trigger is pulled. Once you grip the grip safety, is rotates, moving the protrusion upward, out of the way of the trigger bar, so that it can move backward pushing aginst the sear, clearing the hammer.
    Last edited by Schlitz; 08-14-2012 at 08:15 AM. Reason: grammar, as always
    “The claim and exercise of a constitutional right cannot be converted into a crime.”
    [Miller vs. U.S., 230 F. Supp. 486, 489 (1956)]
    “There can be no sanction or penalty imposed upon one because of his exercise of constitutional rights.”
    [Sherar vs. Cullen, 481 F2d. 946 (1973)]

  22. #22
    Regular Member WalkingWolf's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Schlitz View Post
    The grip safety had nothing to do with this since he carried hammer down, not even on half cock.






    The protrusion sticking out of the grip safety sits up against the trigger bar, which only moves straight back when the trigger is pulled. Once you grip the grip safety, is rotates, moving the protrusion upward, out of the way of the trigger bar, so that it can move backward pushing aginst the sear, clearing the hammer.
    It is very obvious the beavertail is much more extended then the grip safety of a A1. It's upturned shape could easily get hung up on loose clothing IMO. To each their own, I would not use one, I find the A1 very comfortable. But try this test, push down on the grip safety at the beaver tail, I am doing it now with my A1, notice that the grip safety disengages. But it is not worth arguing about, the trigger still had to get pulled, or the sear would have locked into the half cock notch, which if you pull that image up, the sear would probably have to break for the hammer to move forward. Plus the 1911 has a inertia firing pin, which means the spring is in front of the pin heal keeping the striker back from the primer, even with the hammer at rest. It was designed to move forward when struck with enough inertia to make it protrude into the primer. And if the RIA has the same type firing pin safety as the newer Colts, that is not possible without the trigger being depressed.

    Again a lot of speculation for not being there. But in all the ND's I have investigated nobody admits they buggered up. Just Sayin`

    Attachment 9078
    Last edited by WalkingWolf; 08-14-2012 at 08:47 AM.

  23. #23
    Campaign Veteran Schlitz's Avatar
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    Did you bother to read the thread before posting? I clarified that it was indeed a series 70 1911 and that the hammer was already DOWN - this means that the trigger and grip safety had NOTHING to do with this...

    10/10 because I replied.
    “The claim and exercise of a constitutional right cannot be converted into a crime.”
    [Miller vs. U.S., 230 F. Supp. 486, 489 (1956)]
    “There can be no sanction or penalty imposed upon one because of his exercise of constitutional rights.”
    [Sherar vs. Cullen, 481 F2d. 946 (1973)]

  24. #24
    Regular Member WalkingWolf's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Schlitz View Post
    Did you bother to read the thread before posting? I clarified that it was indeed a series 70 1911 and that the hammer was already DOWN - this means that the trigger and grip safety had NOTHING to do with this...

    10/10 because I replied.
    We will have to agree to disagree then, because if the firearm was fully functional, and was not dropped. The hammer had to be back, the thumb safety off, and the grip safety depressed, and then trigger pulled. Unless George W. Bush was at fault. Was the gun inspected after the ND?

    Not about to argue about the obvious, I think the horse died fairly quickly on this one.

  25. #25
    Campaign Veteran Schlitz's Avatar
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    for the love of god, the hammer was already down...
    “The claim and exercise of a constitutional right cannot be converted into a crime.”
    [Miller vs. U.S., 230 F. Supp. 486, 489 (1956)]
    “There can be no sanction or penalty imposed upon one because of his exercise of constitutional rights.”
    [Sherar vs. Cullen, 481 F2d. 946 (1973)]

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