Accidental or Negligent?

WalkingWolf said:

I was going to ask how the grip safety got depressed but I see, beaver tail grip safety. There was a reason Browning designed it with the original grip safety. I like straps over or under my hammers, depending on the gun, at the very least a leather thong. Still confused as to how the trigger got pulled in a IWB holster. May be a defective firearm. Half cock has a notch machined in it, so without the trigger pulled and the grip safety pressed it will not fire, unless dropped. Beaver tails do get caught on clothing, I personally would never use them.

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The grip safety had nothing to do with this since he carried hammer down, not even on half cock.

Can somebody explain how the 1911 grip safety works? .

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The protrusion sticking out of the grip safety sits up against the trigger bar, which only moves straight back when the trigger is pulled. Once you grip the grip safety, is rotates, moving the protrusion upward, out of the way of the trigger bar, so that it can move backward pushing aginst the sear, clearing the hammer.

Schlitz said:

The grip safety had nothing to do with this since he carried hammer down, not even on half cock.






The protrusion sticking out of the grip safety sits up against the trigger bar, which only moves straight back when the trigger is pulled. Once you grip the grip safety, is rotates, moving the protrusion upward, out of the way of the trigger bar, so that it can move backward pushing aginst the sear, clearing the hammer.

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It is very obvious the beavertail is much more extended then the grip safety of a A1. It's upturned shape could easily get hung up on loose clothing IMO. To each their own, I would not use one, I find the A1 very comfortable. But try this test, push down on the grip safety at the beaver tail, I am doing it now with my A1, notice that the grip safety disengages. But it is not worth arguing about, the trigger still had to get pulled, or the sear would have locked into the half cock notch, which if you pull that image up, the sear would probably have to break for the hammer to move forward. Plus the 1911 has a inertia firing pin, which means the spring is in front of the pin heal keeping the striker back from the primer, even with the hammer at rest. It was designed to move forward when struck with enough inertia to make it protrude into the primer. And if the RIA has the same type firing pin safety as the newer Colts, that is not possible without the trigger being depressed.

Again a lot of speculation for not being there. But in all the ND's I have investigated nobody admits they buggered up. Just Sayin`

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Did you bother to read the thread before posting? I clarified that it was indeed a series 70 1911 and that the hammer was already DOWN - this means that the trigger and grip safety had NOTHING to do with this...

10/10 because I replied.

Schlitz said:

Did you bother to read the thread before posting? I clarified that it was indeed a series 70 1911 and that the hammer was already DOWN - this means that the trigger and grip safety had NOTHING to do with this...

10/10 because I replied.

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We will have to agree to disagree then, because if the firearm was fully functional, and was not dropped. The hammer had to be back, the thumb safety off, and the grip safety depressed, and then trigger pulled. Unless George W. Bush was at fault. Was the gun inspected after the ND?

Not about to argue about the obvious, I think the horse died fairly quickly on this one.

for the love of god, the hammer was already down...

Schlitz said:

A coworker of mine was carrying his RIA compact .45 (series 70) in condition 2 as always. He was moving a bed and bent over to pick it up when *BOOM* his 1911 burned his butt cheek and put a round through his pants. He was confused when I told him that it is unsafe to carry with the hammer down. For one, to get to that position you have to pull the trigger with a round in the tube when your intent is not to fire the weapon. Pull trigger - don't want to fire weapon = "does not compute." I'm assuming his shirt caught the hammer and before the half cock position it became free and had enough energy to send the firing pin into the primer.

I post this just as a reminder that cocked and locked is the safest way to carry a chambered 1911 (series 70).

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Schlitz, if you don't mind I would like to use this story (names out of it) in my CCW class as an illustration that it CAN happen if the 1911 or a pistol with a similar action is carried in such a fashion.

Loaded chamber, hammer forward, safety off.

This is no different than carrying a pistol with a spiked hammer down on a loaded chamber. Hit it and it just might go off.

AD requires a parts malfunction
ND requires human input

Since the human input was a failure to use the 1911's safety as designed this would be a negligent discharge. The parts did not fail, the human did.

Go right ahead. I didn't use his name in here so it's not like anyone's reputation is at stake. Share it with as many people as possible. I find it quite scary that some people carry this way and don't know it's dangerous, the more that are informed, the better.

I can't image this happening at a public place near my family - and that could have easily been the case. Instead of bending over to pick up a bed he could have been bending over to tie his shoes in a public place, or picking up something he dropped, who knows. The idea of it happening is really scary.

Is the 1911 where the phrase "don't go off half cocked" came from?

I am honestly asking cuz I don't know.

Lasjayhawk said:

Is the 1911 where the phrase "don't go off half cocked" came from?

I am honestly asking cuz I don't know.

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It has something to do with flintlocks.

Lasjayhawk said:

Is the 1911 where the phrase "don't go off half cocked" came from?

I am honestly asking cuz I don't know.

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There were many firearms that predate the 1911 that had a half cock position, including SAA's and flint/cap locks.

So basically the grip safety allows the trigger to activate the sear and release the hammer. With the grip safety deactivated, the trigger pulls but does nothing. There is not a firing pin block or something like on a revolver? I'm surprised they would not build something like that into the design. Seems like the firing pin should be blocked from the hammer unless the trigger is depressed... my revolver is like that. I can drop the hammer on a chambered round all day because it won't hit the pin without the trigger being pulled back.

HKcarrier said:

So basically the grip safety allows the trigger to activate the sear and release the hammer. With the grip safety deactivated, the trigger pulls but does nothing. There is not a firing pin block or something like on a revolver? I'm surprised they would not build something like that into the design. Seems like the firing pin should be blocked from the hammer unless the trigger is depressed... my revolver is like that. I can drop the hammer on a chambered round all day because it won't hit the pin without the trigger being pulled back.

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A 1911 has a inertia firing pin, meaning that the spring is forward of the firing pin holding the firing pin away from the primer. Even when the hammer is at full rest it does not touch the primer. The gun fires by the hammer driving the firing pin forward with enough force do drive the pin into the primer. The grip safety does not allow the the trigger to activate the sear, the grip safety actually blocks the trigger from rearward travel, so it is not possible to pull the trigger to engage the sear while it is blocked.

A revolver such as a single action revolver if the hammer is at rest on cylinder with a cartridge the firing pin is actually touching the primer, and only minimal force is necessary for it to fire. A rifle such as the nagant the spring is behind the the firing pin, so again with round in the chamber the firing pin is either cocked, or the firing pin is resting on the primer, which again only takes minimal force to fire.

BTW I tested my 1911 with the theory of the hammer pulled back to almost half cocked and released, counted 100 times and the gun did not fire. Half cock is only a few degrees. I have only heard of 1911's firing if dropped or the trigger pulled. The 1911 can fire with the hammer down or cocked and locked if it lands on the muzzle on a hard surface, thus driving the inertia firing pin into the primer.

WalkingWolf said:

BTW I tested my 1911 with the theory of the hammer pulled back to almost half cocked and released, counted 100 times and the gun did not fire. Half cock is only a few degrees. I have only heard of 1911's firing if dropped or the trigger pulled. The 1911 can fire with the hammer down or cocked and locked if it lands on the muzzle on a hard surface, thus driving the inertia firing pin into the primer.

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This didn't happen to your 1911, happened to my friend. Not every 1911 in the world is going to react the same.