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Open Carrier's gun seized after DUI arrest. Police won't return

MKEgal

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rapgood said:
I think that the law presumes that the firearm is his since it was in his possession.
... the burden is on the State to prove that the firearm is stolen.
hermannr said:
If a weapon is not reported stolen, and in your posession, it must be assumed to be legally yours.
What they said.

theaero said:
he has been trying to retrieve the firearm, but they won't let him, because he cannot "prove" he is the owner.
sirpuma said:
As a dealer there is a form that is filled out for the state for every handgun purchase.
...One copy I as the dealer keep.
One copy goes to the LEO for the background check.
One copy goes to the Department of Licensing where they record all the information.
So the State (and therefore the LEA/LEO) know that the gun was sold to your friend.
They already have the proof they're requiring him to provide.

There has to be some way to do an open records request (ORR) to get that proof.
Or how about going back to the dealer to get a copy of the same form?
(Or just point out to a judge what I said in the last paragraph... they already have all the proof they need.)

911Grunt said:
when I check someone for a concealed weapon permit it will give provide a return of all handguns purchased by that person (at a business).
Besides the name, address, etc. it also provides make, model, caliber, where it was purchased and date of sale.
There you go.
They knew almost instantly that it does belong to your friend.
There's no reason for the PD to stall, other than simply that they don't like LACs.
 
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gogodawgs

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Let me say it again. When someone acquires a HANDGUN from a LICENSED DEALER there is a STATE PISTOL TRANSFER APPLICATION (FIR-652-001) form that is required BY LAW to be filled out in triplicate. Copy A is sent to the LEO for background checks. Copy B is sent to the STATE DEPARTMENT OF LICENSING for registration. Copy C is kept by the LICENSED DEALER for six years. If your firearm does not meet those conditions it isn't "registered". If your firearm does, then it is registered. This form is currently in effect and has been for quite some time, though I don't know exactly when it was implemented.

http://www.dol.wa.gov/business/firearms/firchart.html
http://apps.leg.wa.gov/rcw/default.aspx?cite=9.41.129 "The department of licensing may keep ... copies or records of applications to purchase pistols provided for in RCW 9.41.090, and copies or records of pistol transfers provided for in RCW 9.41.110."

There is proof of the registration. While it is not mandatory for every resident to register every firearm, all handguns purchased from a dealer are. And it looks like the Pistol Transfer Form law 9.41.090 has been around since 1994.

Yet, I acquired two handguns from licensed dealer's and filled out the form (FIR-652-001) that was required by law. The 2 firearms I bought are NOT 'registered' to me. They only show that I purchased them. Both have been given as gifts and are no longer in my possession. And there is nothing required by law that says I have to do anything else. Even if they were used in a crime in the future I would tell LE to go pound sand.
 

sirpuma

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Now while you don't have to pay for registration like you do with your vehicle (car, truck, motorcycle, boat, airplane) and while you don't have a copy of this registration for you to keep on you to prove it's yours, the Pistol Transfer Application still meets the definition of a registration.

Definition of REGISTER
1
: a written record containing regular entries of items or details

Definition of REGISTRATION
1
: the act of registering
2
: an entry in a register

Definition of REGISTER
transitive verb
1
a : to make or secure official entry of in a register b : to enroll formally especially as a voter or student c : to record automatically : indicate d : to make a record of : note
 

theaero

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What they said.



So the State (and therefore the LEA/LEO) know that the gun was sold to your friend.
They already have the proof they're requiring him to provide.

There has to be some way to do an open records request (ORR) to get that proof.
Or how about going back to the dealer to get a copy of the same form?
(Or just point out to a judge what I said in the last paragraph... they already have all the proof they need.)


There you go.
They knew almost instantly that it does belong to your friend.
There's no reason for the PD to stall, other than simply that they don't like LACs.


He purchased the gun from a private party. There was no record of the sale.
 

hermannr

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Let me say it again. When someone acquires a HANDGUN from a LICENSED DEALER there is a STATE PISTOL TRANSFER APPLICATION (FIR-652-001) form that is required BY LAW to be filled out in triplicate. Copy A is sent to the LEO for background checks. Copy B is sent to the STATE DEPARTMENT OF LICENSING for registration. Copy C is kept by the LICENSED DEALER for six years. If your firearm does not meet those conditions it isn't "registered". If your firearm does, then it is registered. This form is currently in effect and has been for quite some time, though I don't know exactly when it was implemented.

http://www.dol.wa.gov/business/firearms/firchart.html
http://apps.leg.wa.gov/rcw/default.aspx?cite=9.41.129 "The department of licensing may keep ... copies or records of applications to purchase pistols provided for in RCW 9.41.090, and copies or records of pistol transfers provided for in RCW 9.41.110."

There is proof of the registration. While it is not mandatory for every resident to register every firearm, all handguns purchased from a dealer are. And it looks like the Pistol Transfer Form law 9.41.090 has been around since 1994.

yes, another Lowry lovely...However..please show me wher anything in 9.41.090 or 110 has anything to do with private citizen to private citizen sale...chapter and verse...sorry...if you buy from a dealer it applies, if you purchase from a private party, none of this applies. If anyone sold you a firearm in WA prior it Lowry and company...it does not apply.
 

sirpuma

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Yet, I acquired two handguns from licensed dealer's and filled out the form (FIR-652-001) that was required by law. The 2 firearms I bought are NOT 'registered' to me. They only show that I purchased them. Both have been given as gifts and are no longer in my possession. And there is nothing required by law that says I have to do anything else. Even if they were used in a crime in the future I would tell LE to go pound sand.

Good luck with that. The record will show you purchased them. If they are later used in a crime the cops will come to you and ask you lots of questions, including what you may or may not have done with them. Go ahead and tell them to "pound sand" and you will be hauled in for more in depth questioning.
 

sirpuma

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yes, another Lowry lovely...However..please show me wher anything in 9.41.090 or 110 has anything to do with private citizen to private citizen sale...chapter and verse...sorry...if you buy from a dealer it applies, if you purchase from a private party, none of this applies. If anyone sold you a firearm in WA prior it Lowry and company...it does not apply.

Jezuz criminey christmas, did you NOT READ THE BOLD AND UNDERLINED WORDS? and who da farg is Lowry? Whether you like it or not, whether you want to play semantics, there is a state registration UNDER CERTAIN CONDITIONS.
 

sudden valley gunner

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Good luck with that. The record will show you purchased them. If they are later used in a crime the cops will come to you and ask you lots of questions, including what you may or may not have done with them. Go ahead and tell them to "pound sand" and you will be hauled in for more in depth questioning.

Not without a warrant. They can go pound sand.


I seen a few of my long guns show up on a deputies screen when he ran my drivers license. So they are not just doing this with pistols folks.......just a heads up.
 
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Vitaeus

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I expect that the issue may be more the RCW Big Dave pointed out, the DA may very well be considering adding that RCW to the list of charges. If that is the case the firearm is evidence and unlikely to be returned until all the charges are dropped/dealt with.

The registration/purchase discussion is rather off topic, I am finding it interesting though.
 

sirpuma

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Not without a warrant. They can go pound sand.


I seen a few of my long guns show up on a deputies screen when he ran my drivers license. So they are not just doing this with pistols folks.......just a heads up.

I would wager that if a firearm listed under your name comes up in a crime and you're combative a warrant or criminal charges will be drawn up. That's just they way they roll. Now how they had a list of your long guns, I don't know, because there's nothing in my business long gun related that goes to the cops or the DOL.

And any of you who think I agree with the LIST/REGISTER/ORGANIZED INFORMATION SHARED ACROSS AGENCIES/FORMS et. al. you can go pound sand. Frankly I HATE with a passion having to fill out all these damnable forms and all the stupid record keeping.
 

sudden valley gunner

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I would wager that if a firearm listed under your name comes up in a crime and you're combative a warrant or criminal charges will be drawn up. That's just they way they roll. Now how they had a list of your long guns, I don't know, because there's nothing in my business long gun related that goes to the cops or the DOL.

And any of you who think I agree with the LIST/REGISTER/ORGANIZED INFORMATION SHARED ACROSS AGENCIES/FORMS et. al. you can go pound sand. Frankly I HATE with a passion having to fill out all these damnable forms and all the stupid record keeping.


What's "combative" about standing up for your rights?. AT that point you are now standing up for 4th and 5th amendment rights, and insisting they follow due process.

You are probably right that is exactly what will happen though no matter how serenely you took your stand. :D

Let's repeal those laws then I'll vote for that.
 

gogodawgs

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Good luck with that. The record will show you purchased them. If they are later used in a crime the cops will come to you and ask you lots of questions, including what you may or may not have done with them. Go ahead and tell them to "pound sand" and you will be hauled in for more in depth questioning.

They can't 'haul' me in for questioning. WTF are you talking about. Unless they have PC they can't do a damn thing to me. They can ask and my attorney will tell them to pound sand.
 

sirpuma

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What's "combative" about standing up for your rights?. AT that point you are now standing up for 4th and 5th amendment rights, and insisting they follow due process.

You are probably right that is exactly what will happen though no matter how serenely you took your stand. :D

Let's repeal those laws then I'll vote for that.

This is what I'm talking about "being combative". You buy a pistol from a dealer. It is then registered with the DOL that you purchased XYZ pistol. You decide after a while that you just don't like XYZ pistol and you sell it on SGN or another site to someone you don't really know that well. They in turn hand it over to a buddy of his that then uses it in a armed robbery that results in a murder and XYZ pistol is dropped at the scene or the criminal is caught with it. The LEO will run the pistol through the system. The system will say that you purchased that particular pistol. Police show up on your doorstep to find out how that weapon ended up in the hands of a criminal. They knock on your door. "Excuse me sir, we see you are the purchaser of XYZ pistol and would like to ask you a few questions." "Go pound sand, copper." "Ok, to quote Arnold, We'll be back." Two hours later, "excuse me sir, we have a warrant for your arrest for transferring a firearm to a criminal and refusing to cooperate with our investigation. We have some nifty bracelets for you to try on."

Or, you could respond to the initial question with "Oh, yeah, I sold that pistol bla months ago." "To who", "don't recall, some guy off SGN", "Ok". They can drag it out of you or you can cooperate in their investigation. If they then say "may we come in and look at your computer" you can say "not without a proper warrant" but being rude and aggressive by telling them to "pound sand" won't get you anywhere.

While we have certain inalienable rights it doesn't me we have to be asses. If you legally disposed of a firearm, why should you be an ass to a cop who's investigating a crime. You may not care if someone you didn't know was murdered with a firearm you gifted or sold, but what if the victim was a family member?

Personally any of my personal firearms that I give out or sell I make record of to cover my butt in the event that something bad happens.

And to get back on topic, I agree with Big Dave's assessment.
 

sirpuma

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They can't 'haul' me in for questioning. WTF are you talking about. Unless they have PC they can't do a damn thing to me. They can ask and my attorney will tell them to pound sand.

Actually, believe it or not, a firearm listed (since you froth at the word registered) as being purchased by you is found to be used in a crime that is probable cause for questioning you about its status. You may have your lawyer with you during questioning and you can sit there and hold your breath. But don't be surprised if you get charged with something.

In fact. If for any reason the LEO have to ask you questions pursuant to a criminal investigation, please do us all a favor. Set your recorder on and I want to see and hear you tell a cop to "pound sand" when he inquires if he can ask you questions. Then when they come back, please record that too.
 
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Jeff Hayes

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Good luck with that. The record will show you purchased them. If they are later used in a crime the cops will come to you and ask you lots of questions, including what you may or may not have done with them. Go ahead and tell them to "pound sand" and you will be hauled in for more in depth questioning.

Exactly what would the Cops haul you in for? On what grounds would they detain you?

What exactly would they arrest you for, legally purchasing a firearm 10 years ago?

I would tell them to pound sand too.

If they want info from me the can subpoena me into a court of law.

If the Cops had enough evidence to tie me into the criminal use of a firearm I purchased 10 years ago talking to them would only help their case.

If the Cops had enough evidence to arrest you they will no matter what you say or do not say talking to them can only hurt you.

You still have not cited an RCW that covers gun registration on Washington state. Still waiting your definitions and justifications do not count BTW.

You did show that the DOL is allowed to keep a record of purchases but like Nick said the guns are not registered to you. There is only a record of purchase/
 

gogodawgs

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Actually, believe it or not, a firearm listed (since you froth at the word registered) as being purchased by you is found to be used in a crime that is probable cause for questioning you about its status. You may have your lawyer with you during questioning and you can sit there and hold your breath. But don't be surprised if you get charged with something.

Tada! Wrong.

Let's see....no finger prints of mine found on the gun.
Let's see....no physical proof of any kind found at the scene.
Let's see....no motive for the crime.
Let's see....no intent for the crime.

Four key components must be present: intent, conduct, concurrence, and causation.

The Police may request my presence for questioning with only a recovered firearm, but that is all that would happen without intent, conduct, concurrence and causation.
 

Jeff Hayes

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Actually, believe it or not, a firearm listed (since you froth at the word registered) as being purchased by you is found to be used in a crime that is probable cause for questioning you about its status.

Please cite the law that covers probable cause for questioning anyone about anything.
 

hermannr

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Jezuz criminey christmas, did you NOT READ THE BOLD AND UNDERLINED WORDS? and who da farg is Lowry? Whether you like it or not, whether you want to play semantics, there is a state registration UNDER CERTAIN CONDITIONS.

I read the underlined, and I read the law...DOES NOT APPLY TO PRIVATE SALES...end of that. The state wants to save money, they can stop recording licensed sales too, that is a waste of money.

Who is/was Lowry He was the biggest mistake for a gov that this state ever made... see http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mike_Lowry

RCW 9.41 was highly modified in 1994, compliments of Lowry...and his gang of !@#$%^ over half of that legislation was thrown out by the Supreme Court as unconstitutional. We need a gov and legislature that will get rid of the rest of his "legacy". Just look at RCW 9.41 and see how much was messed with in 1994.
 

sirpuma

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Please cite the law that covers probable cause for questioning anyone about anything.

Who says the law has anything to do with it. I've been specifically talking about being combative and rude to cops conducting an investigation. You will be put in cuffs in a heart beat and threatened with death. Ask me how I know. Just ask me. You guys talk all big about being a rude tough guy to cops, but really, you think they will tolerate it? HA. And please, if a firearm you are REGISTERED as having purchased winds up as evidence in a criminal investigation, you don't think that is probable cause to ask you what happened to it? WOW
 
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