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Thread: New To Colorado; Education Needed

  1. #1
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    New To Colorado; Education Needed

    Hi Folks,

    I just moved to Colorado Springs from Montana. I'm an active shooter, usually logging about 2-3 hours in a range every week. I am also a VERY avid motorcyclist. I open carry a firearm almost always when riding (especially on longer rides into the woods). While Montana doesn't have quite the same "people" threat that Colorado has, it does has an inverse proportion of animal threats which is the primary reason why I started carrying while riding. I've never had a problem with any businesses, people, or law enforcement officials in Montana. Here in Colorado however, things are a bit more complicated (given the Denver situation).

    Reading the laws; I understand that as a motorcyclist I have the right to carry concealed or open on my motorcycle. Since I am from MT and don't yet have a CCW, I need to open carry when I plan to dismount or move from the immediate vicinity of the motorcycle. Usually my first step after taking off my helmet is removing my jacket. A concealed weapon without a permit is not something I take lightly.

    Also, as a personal rule, I do not carry a weapon when I am in a establishment that serves alcohol, regardless if I plan to drink anything or not. I have a sidecar motorcycle with a locking trunk. Ideally, I'd like to remove my SERPA holster (with the firearm still holstered) place it in my locking trunk. When I'm finished at an establishment, I'd like to re-attach the holster to my hip and go about my way.

    My questions are this;

    #1. The laws mention that you can carry a weapon in your, or on your person concealed and open. What happens when its right in the middle? One of my motorcycle jackets doesn't quite cover the lower portion of my SERPA holster. If my firearm is partially concealed while I am riding, does that present more problems?

    #2. Being on a motorcycle (and therefore no "cage" to shield the public from me re-attaching my holstered pistol to my hip), what are the legal ramifications of doing so? Could it be considered brandishing? I often wonder if even touching my firearm (resting my forearm on the hilt, or touching the side of the holster while pulling out my wallet) can result in more problems.

    #3. Occasionally, I need to visit or ride through Denver. Given its anti-gun/open carry position, I do not stop (for any reason) in Denver. If I am travelling through Denver on the interstate on my motorcycle, can I still legally open carry/concealed carry my pistol? I understand that if I stop and leave the immediate vicinity of the motorcycle, my gun has to be off my person and locked.

    Thanks again for all the time everyone has spent putting information on this forum. It was a one-stop shop for me to digest and understand all the Colorado laws for open carry, and possible pitfalls.

    P.S. A picture of my sidecar and my dog who rides with me. Just because.


  2. #2
    Regular Member JamesB's Avatar
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    1. Not a problem. OC is legal, CC is legal. If you are in (or on) your vehicle, you can have it your way. Whatever your way is. Open is fine Concealed is fine. Middle ground is fine.

    2. Riding is just the same as being in a cage a far as the law is concerned. I ride everyday and put about 10k miles on my bike/ year. I carry everyday on the bike too. As far as resting an elbow or reaching in a pocket... basically as long as you don't treat it as an issue neither will anyone else. It is only when you look all shifty eyed and wierd that anyone even notices.

    3. Again you seem to have a pretty good handle on things here. Going through is just fine. If you stop, lock it up.

    More specfic answers to questions you have not yet asked can be found here, including statute referances.
    http://www.rmgo.org/gun-law-faqs/carrying-in-a-vehicle

  3. #3
    Regular Member Wolfstanus's Avatar
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    Nice dog. Is it a baby kind? As in do just about anything to him/her and it's just happy to get some form of attention.

    I'm helping!

    Some stuff you may find usefull from Mr. T


    CRS 29-11.7-103. Regulation - type of firearm - prohibited.
    A local government may not enact an ordinance, regulation, or other law that prohibits the sale, purchase, or possession of a firearm that a person may lawfully sell, purchase, or possess under state or federal law. Any such ordinance, regulation, or other law enacted by a local government prior to March 18, 2003, is void and unenforceable.

    And:*

    29-11.7-101. Legislative declaration.
    (1) The general assembly hereby finds that:*
    ...
    (b) Section 13 of article II of the state constitution protects the fundamental right of a person to keep and bear arms and implements section 3 of article II of the state constitution;
    ...
    (d) There exists a widespread inconsistency among jurisdictions within the state with regard to firearms regulations;

    (e) This inconsistency among local government laws regulating lawful firearm possession and ownership has extraterritorial impact on state citizens and the general public by subjecting them to criminal and civil penalties in some jurisdictions for conduct wholly lawful in other jurisdictions;

    (f) Inconsistency among local governments of laws regulating the possession and ownership of firearms results in persons being treated differently under the law solely on the basis of where they reside, and a person's residence in a particular county or city or city and county is not a rational classification when it is the basis for denial of equal treatment under the law;
    ...
    (2) Based on the findings specified in subsection (1) of this section, the general assembly concludes that:

    (a) The regulation of firearms is a matter of statewide concern;

    (b) It is necessary to provide statewide laws concerning the possession and ownership of a firearm to ensure that law-abiding persons are not unfairly placed in the position of unknowingly committing crimes involving firearms.

    29-11.7-104. Regulation - carrying - posting.

    A local government may enact an ordinance, regulation, or other law that prohibits the open carrying of a firearm in a building or specific area within the local government's jurisdiction. If a local government enacts an ordinance, regulation, or other law that prohibits the open carrying of a firearm in a building or specific area, the local government shall post signs at the public entrances to the building or specific area informing persons that the open carrying of firearms is prohibited in the building or specific area.
    Last edited by Wolfstanus; 08-13-2012 at 06:23 PM.

  4. #4
    Regular Member JamesB's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by JamesB View Post
    1. Not a problem. OC is legal, CC is legal. If you are in (or on) your vehicle, you can have it your way. Whatever your way is. Open is fine Concealed is fine. Middle ground is fine.

    2. Riding is just the same as being in a cage a far as the law is concerned. I ride everyday and put about 10k miles on my bike/ year. I carry everyday on the bike too. As far as resting an elbow or reaching in a pocket... basically as long as you don't treat it as an issue neither will anyone else. It is only when you look all shifty eyed and wierd that anyone even notices.

    3. Again you seem to have a pretty good handle on things here. Going through is just fine. If you stop, lock it up.

    More specfic answers to questions you have not yet asked can be found here, including statute referances.
    http://www.rmgo.org/gun-law-faqs/carrying-in-a-vehicle
    O yea! I forgot.
    Where's your co-pilot's eye protection!??

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    Quote Originally Posted by Wolfstanus View Post
    I'm helping!
    Some stuff you may find usefull from Mr T ..

    Thanks for the information; I've done a fair amount of reading through this forum and the laws for the state before I posted up. Its often hard to read through the legalese. Like reading Shakespeare, I usually have to read it slowly a couple times to myself before it fully makes sense. One that specifically worries me:

    (From rmgo.org):
    Can I carry while on a motorcycle? CONDITIONAL YES
    18-12-105. Unlawfully carrying a concealed weapon - unlawful possession of weapons.
    (2) It shall not be an offense if the defendant was:
    (b) A person in a private automobile or other private means of conveyance who carries a weapon for lawful protection of such person's or another's person or property while traveling
    (Just remember that if you stop at a prohibited carry location i.e. school or court, you will have to leave the weapon in your vehicle. With motorcycles, this is not an option.)
    Since I usually have some form of hard-lockable luggage on my motorcycle, this is where I would store my firearm if I needed to depart from my motorcycle. Handling the firearm (removing the paddle holster & gun and storing it in luggage, or dressing the holster and firearm) isn't covered or mentioned. I presume this is a law of omission? I also presume that things go smoother if you do not unholster your weapon to store it in plain sight while on a motorcycle.

    Quote Originally Posted by Wolfstanus View Post
    Nice dog. Is it a baby kind? As in do just about anything to him/her and it's just happy to get some form of attention.
    Her name is Lola. I've had her since she was a pup. Her primary concern is being near and around me. She doesn't seem to care what weird situations I keep putting her in (boats, rafts down rivers, sidecars, etc). We've been through some stuff together over the past 11 years
    Last edited by metronumic; 08-13-2012 at 06:49 PM.

  6. #6
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    Quote Originally Posted by JamesB View Post
    O yea! I forgot.
    Where's your co-pilot's eye protection!??
    Haha! Its there, you just can't see it. She wears "doggles" when riding. Cheesy I know, but there is a lot of dust on the dry dirt roads we frequent. She's fine wearing them while we are in motion, but as soon as we stop, she paws them down off her face and around her neck.

    I ride year round too, snow and all that. In Montana that meant negative temperatures for a couple months a year and I'd put a coat on here. I don't think I'll have to worry about that here. Some folks have told me that it the coldest it gets in the Springs is around 0 degrees.


  7. #7
    Regular Member JamesB's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by metronumic View Post
    Since I usually have some form of hard-lockable luggage on my motorcycle, this is where I would store my firearm if I needed to depart from my motorcycle. Handling the firearm (removing the paddle holster & gun and storing it in luggage, or dressing the holster and firearm) isn't covered or mentioned. I presume this is a law of omission? I also presume that things go smoother if you do not unholster your weapon to store it in plain sight while on a motorcycle.
    If you have the lockable storage then, once again it becomes, not an issue.

    I would prefer to take holster and all and lock mine that way when nesessary, but I ride a Ninja. There is just enough space under the lockable seat for my Glock and my pocketknife (for court and other metal detector places). My Kel-Tec will also fit, but it has a tendency to jam the lock. My Baretta 96 is about 3/4 inch too big to fit under the seat.

    Her name is Lola. I've had her since she was a pup. Her primary concern is being near and around me. She doesn't seem to care what weird situations I keep putting her in (boats, rafts down rivers, sidecars, etc). We've been through some stuff together over the past 11 years
    And... where does Lola shop for "doggles?" I have a copilot that would love some.

  8. #8
    Regular Member Dilligad316's Avatar
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    When I started Carrying being that I am right handed I started carrying my very thin wallet in my left rear pocket so if anybody asked for ID I would be reaching with my left hand and having not to reach anywhere close to my sidearm leaving no question that I am not reaching or possibly brandishing. Besides that way it leaves my right hand free in-case I do need to get to my sidearm.

  9. #9
    Regular Member M-Taliesin's Avatar
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    Howdy Amigo!
    If you remove your sidearm everywhere alcohol is sold or consumed, you might just as well leave it at home.
    The reason I say this is because Applebees, and darn near any restaurant around these parts, will have a bar.
    Going to Famous Daves for a bit of Bar-B-Que? They serve alcohol.
    How about The Tavern... fine food, but they also serve booze.
    The number of locations selling alcohol is astounding.
    Personally, I don't drink, so I don't fret wearing my sidearm when we go out. I also don't fret about whether or not they sell booze.

    That said, I want to clear away a misconception.
    Open carry is not legal in Denver. Okay, every rule has an exception.
    I often stop in Denver and open carry while doing it.
    The trick is.... are you on private property or not.
    If you go to a shopping center, it's private property. No signs prohibiting firearms, and you're good to go.
    My tobacconist is in a shopping center. I never conceal when running in and out of there.
    Bellco has a branch at Havana and Mississippi. It's Denver territory. But the bank property is private property.
    They don't object to me open carrying, so the Denver cop doing security work in their lobby was frustrated and unable to do anything about it.
    But you'd probably like to examine the law for support. Maybe you'd like to carry it with you. Maybe you'd like to jot it down.

    The 2004 Meyers Decision states:
    "Given the State's detailed regulatory scheme for concealed carry of handguns, I find and conclude that the portion of DRMC 38-117(f)(2) which reads "while traveling into or through the city to or from another jurisdiction, regardless of the number of times the person stops in the city or the other jurisdiction" is in conflict with state law and is preempted by state law. Further, I find that DRMC 38-11 8(a)(1) is in conflict with state law where it includes the phrase "when there is a direct and immediate threat thereto." In all other respects, the City's ordinances, as amended, do not conflict with state law in this area and may coexist with state law."

    So, as I read it, when you come into Denver territory from another jurisdiction or on your way to another jurisdiction, you're good to go because they are preempted from bothering with you. They gotta go by state law. Because you ride into Denver territory from another jurisdiction, no matter how many stops you make, you should not be harassed because their little ordinance is preempted by state law. How cool is that?

    In any event, I am not a lawyer, and please do not think I can give legal advice. I'm just explaining what I do. In more than a year, I've not been bothered when in Denverland! I've shopped at Shepler's DTC (I believe that's Denver territory), my aforementioned tobacconist, the aforementioned Bellco credit union in Denver stomping grounds, a variety of stores in Denver territory including King Soopers and Safeway, and a whole lot of other places like gas stations and convenience stores. Nobody bothers me.

    Then again, it could be on account of my expensive hat! Who can say?

    Blessings,
    M-Taliesin

  10. #10
    Regular Member JamesB's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by M-Taliesin View Post
    Howdy Amigo!

    ...The 2004 Meyers Decision states:
    "Given the State's detailed regulatory scheme for concealed carry of handguns, I find and conclude that the portion of DRMC 38-117(f)(2) which reads "while traveling into or through the city to or from another jurisdiction, regardless of the number of times the person stops in the city or the other jurisdiction" is in conflict with state law and is preempted by state law. Further, I find that DRMC 38-11 8(a)(1) is in conflict with state law where it includes the phrase "when there is a direct and immediate threat thereto." In all other respects, the City's ordinances, as amended, do not conflict with state law in this area and may coexist with state law."

    So, as I read it, when you come into Denver territory from another jurisdiction or on your way to another jurisdiction, you're good to go because they are preempted from bothering with you. They gotta go by state law. Because you ride into Denver territory from another jurisdiction, no matter how many stops you make, you should not be harassed because their little ordinance is preempted by state law. How cool is that?
    Hey M-T. While I am not a lawyer either, I can see how that portion of the decision you cut out refers to Concealed Carry given the Judge's introduction to the issue.

    I do not believe that portion refers to OC.

    Your take?

    Then again, it could be on account of my expensive hat! Who can say?

    Blessings,
    M-Taliesin
    Well, you know we is all a little jelous of that thing...

  11. #11
    Regular Member zach's Avatar
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    Welcome!

    Cool bike! More details?

    I ride a Yamaha Stratoliner.

  12. #12
    Regular Member PikesPeakMtnMan's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by zach View Post
    Welcome!

    Cool bike! More details?

    I ride a Yamaha Stratoliner.
    Do you frequent the YMF forums as well? There's a gentleman from Castle Rock with the handle ZachinCO with a Strat....
    Last edited by PikesPeakMtnMan; 08-13-2012 at 11:59 PM.
    One day your life is going to flash before your eyes, make it worth watching.

  13. #13
    Regular Member zach's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by PikesPeakMtnMan View Post
    Do you frequent the YMF forums as well? There's a gentleman from Castle Rock with the handle ZachinCO with a Strat....
    That would be me as well. I couldn't get just plain ol Zach, some schmuck had already taken my name! Yours is a little more unique though. I'm also on the Delphi forum, but not as frequent as YMF.

  14. #14
    Regular Member M-Taliesin's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by JamesB View Post
    Hey M-T. While I am not a lawyer either, I can see how that portion of the decision you cut out refers to Concealed Carry given the Judge's introduction to the issue.

    I do not believe that portion refers to OC.

    Your take?
    Howdy JamesB!
    Yeah, I figured somebody would notice that fine point. Okay, so let me see if I can explain this sensibly.

    In every other jurisdiction around Denver, OC is entirely legal.
    Travelling in a car or other means of conveyance allows you to OC or CC at your discretion.
    If I am travelling from another jurisdiction where OC is legal, and compelled to stop in Denver territory, and I am OC in my car, and it says 'no matter how many times I may stop in Denver's territory, I should be fine. It appears to me that the original Denver ordinance limiting CC would not make sense since the state law everywhere in Colorado prohibits concealed carry without a permit. If a citizen has a CCW permit and gets out of their car, it would make absolutely no difference under Denver ordinance. If they are CCW outside their car without a permit, they'd be in violation of the law regardless of jurisdiction. The only thing remotely relevant is OC.

    And if it pertained strictly to CC, as may be understood from the reading, how would they know if the handgun is concealed.

    More important is the line that follows:
    "when there is a direct and immediate threat thereto."

    The only direct and immediate threat is to my liberty because I OC in my jurisdiction without problem, can carry in my car with no prohibition, and only come under possible peril if I exit my vehicle in Denver territory. Since I have a CCW, I'd be legal to CC; the only relevance is OC.

    Did any of that make semblence of sense?

    Blessings,
    M-Taliesin

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    Quote Originally Posted by M-Taliesin View Post
    Howdy Amigo!
    If you remove your sidearm everywhere alcohol is sold or consumed, you might just as well leave it at home.
    The reason I say this is because Applebees, and darn near any restaurant around these parts, will have a bar.
    Going to Famous Daves for a bit of Bar-B-Que? They serve alcohol.
    Hey M-T; What I wrote was inaccurate. I will regularly carry into restaurants and other establishments that serve alcohol. I don't carry into places that are exclusively for serving alcohol (bars, saloons, etc). Call it old fashion Montana rules; No guns in the saloon.


    Quote Originally Posted by M-Taliesin
    That said, I want to clear away a misconception.
    Open carry is not legal in Denver. Okay, every rule has an exception.
    I often stop in Denver and open carry while doing it.
    The trick is.... are you on private property or not.
    An interesting loophole; Makes sense to me. To be frank and honest (and I mean no disrespect to those of you who live in Denver), I steer way clear of Denver unless I have to go through it. Last time I rode my motorcycle through Denver, an irate driver SPIT on me and my girlfriend. Made a grand show of asking me to pull over so he could "knock my silly as out". As tempting as it might have been to watch him try to knock me out in my helmet and armored jacket, I wiped the spit off my face and continued on my way. Just not a very welcoming place.

    Quote Originally Posted by JamesB View Post
    And... where does Lola shop for "doggles?" I have a copilot that would love some.
    I bought them from a specialty outdoor-dog place in Bozeman, but you can buy them from Petco. They come in three sizes. They work pretty well, but they do collect slobber and nose goo pretty quick.

    Quote Originally Posted by zach View Post
    Welcome!
    Cool bike! More details?
    I ride a Yamaha Stratoliner.
    I had never heard of a Yamaha Stratoliner until just now. Sharp looking machine.

    The outfit in the photos is a Ural Gear-Up; Russian made sidecar motorcycles, with reverse and engageable 2 wheel drive. The russians copied plans from a 1939 German sidecar, and have been making them ever since. Pretty cool little machines!
    Last edited by metronumic; 08-14-2012 at 12:18 PM.

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    Welcome to the forum!

    That is a neat bike! I'd love to have something like that.

    I ride a '78 Yamaha DT Enduro. Just rebuilt the engine and still breaking it in. no place to store a gun on it though. I still need to get plates and my motorcycle endorsement so I can take it out on the roads. I don't want to spend $$$ taking a riding class to get my endorsement.

    Welcome to Colorado!

    Blessings,

    Keens

  17. #17
    Regular Member zach's Avatar
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    That's a really cool bike & sidecar!!

    Quote Originally Posted by Keens View Post
    Welcome to the forum!

    That is a neat bike! I'd love to have something like that.

    I ride a '78 Yamaha DT Enduro. Just rebuilt the engine and still breaking it in. no place to store a gun on it though. I still need to get plates and my motorcycle endorsement so I can take it out on the roads. I don't want to spend $$$ taking a riding class to get my endorsement.

    Welcome to Colorado!

    Blessings,

    Keens
    Keens,

    I took the MSF course through Abate. I've been riding off road dirt bikes for 20 years and the course taught me things. I look at it like this, to put it in fb terms, it's like buying a new style of weapon and not at least getting some basic instruction from someone w more training on it.


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    Quote Originally Posted by zach View Post
    That's a really cool bike & sidecar!!



    Keens,

    I took the MSF course through Abate. I've been riding off road dirt bikes for 20 years and the course taught me things. I look at it like this, to put it in fb terms, it's like buying a new style of weapon and not at least getting some basic instruction from someone w more training on it.


    Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
    Howdy Zach,

    I'd like to find a course that is affordable as I can't afford most of the classes that I've seen going for $200-300. How much do the Abate courses go for? I only plan to ride the bike around the country where I live and up to the mountains to do some trail riding and shooting. I've been thinking of making a frame mounted holster to carry my shotgun on. I'm new at riding, I just bought it in Dec of 2010 and spent some time rebuilding it. Been riding it now for about 2 months. We should have an OC M&G ride to the mountains once I get my tags and endorsement!

    Blessings,

    Keens

  19. #19
    Regular Member JamesB's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Keens View Post
    Howdy Zach,

    I'd like to find a course that is affordable as I can't afford most of the classes that I've seen going for $200-300. How much do the Abate courses go for? I only plan to ride the bike around the country where I live and up to the mountains to do some trail riding and shooting. I've been thinking of making a frame mounted holster to carry my shotgun on. I'm new at riding, I just bought it in Dec of 2010 and spent some time rebuilding it. Been riding it now for about 2 months. We should have an OC M&G ride to the mountains once I get my tags and endorsement!

    Blessings,

    Keens
    http://abate.si2.com/ABATE/TRS.nsf/L...s-BRC?OpenForm

  20. #20
    Regular Member zach's Avatar
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    Thanks James!

    Keens, the class will get you your endorsement. Just go to the DMV and get your ID updated. My insurance gave me a discount for the MSF course too.


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  21. #21
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    Quote Originally Posted by zach View Post
    Thanks James!

    Keens, the class will get you your endorsement. Just go to the DMV and get your ID updated. My insurance gave me a discount for the MSF course too.


    Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
    Thanks Guys! I'm going to check it out today.

  22. #22
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    Quote Originally Posted by Keens View Post
    Howdy Zach,

    I'd like to find a course that is affordable as I can't afford most of the classes that I've seen going for $200-300. How much do the Abate courses go for? I only plan to ride the bike around the country where I live and up to the mountains to do some trail riding and shooting. I've been thinking of making a frame mounted holster to carry my shotgun on.
    Keens; I'd highly recommend the MSF course. My girlfriend took it over a weekend and went from never ridden, to a very proficient rider in two days.

    Also, regarding the shotgun holster; There are repro M1 Garand Scabbards available (ebay, etc) that work very well for a variety of firearms. The photo below is one mounted on a Ural; Though you could mount one just about anywhere you want on another bike.



    Also, the MOLLE shotgun scabbard from Voodoo Tactical should work for just about anything you need:
    http://www.voodootactical.net/p-34-m...ngton-870.aspx

    Personally I don't ride with a rifle. I figure if my 10mm Glock can't handle whatever comes out of the underbrush, I need to be riding/running away fast. About 4 months ago I had an "Oh ****" moment when rounding the corner of a backcountry byway, I surprised two Grizzly bears. My dog started barking and my hand went to my hip, just as they started scrambling up a hill to get away from me.

    If it had gone the other way, I'd probably would have had about 4-5 seconds to draw and shoot. Probably not enough time to draw a shotgun/rifle, chamber a round and shoot.

  23. #23
    Regular Member zach's Avatar
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    metronumic, that would be a great setup for grouse hunting in the high country! Those birds are so dull they just sit there when you drive by.

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