My very first MWAG call....HAHA

[LoneEchoWolf]

So my 12-yr old is on a dirt track with his car, keys in, motor started... he has to have a driving license?



Snigger snerrrkkkkkk. "I'm not gonna cite any you can't Make me. I knows what I knows and you can't make me cite something that isn't there!"

SMART people know the law, regular ol' smart people know the difference between "your" and "you're."

Is that 12 year old on private property? smartass! or are they on a public road or parking lot? you say dirt track, that would mean private property now wouldnt it.
Any person who operates a motor vehicle, motor-driven
cycle or moped on the public streets and highways in
Colorado is required to be at least 16 years of age and have
a valid driver’s license.
RESIDENT: Per C.R.S. 42-1-102 (81), any person who owns
or operates a business in Colorado or who has resided
within the state continuously for 90 days or who has
obtained gainful employment within this state, whichever
shall occur first, is considered a Colorado resident. (See
New Resident §3)
SPECIAL EXEMPTIONS C.R.S. 42-2-102 AND 24-60-1106
The following persons need not obtain a Colorado License
provided they are 16 years of age or older and possess a valid
license from their home state or state of last assignment.
COLORADO RESIDENTS: Any resident of this state who
is employed in another state, where the laws of that state
require licensing to drive in order to engage in a regul

Driving without a license is a violation of Colorado's Revised Statute 42-2-138, "Driving Under Restraint-Penalty." Restraint is defined as the denial, revocation or suspension of a drivers license or privilege to drive a vehicle on state roads. Drivers who violate the law face fines and jail sentences, will not be eligible for any type of compromise and will be ordered to serve and pay the mandatory minimum sentence and fine, respectively.

Read more: Colorado State Laws & Punishment on Driving Without a License | eHow.com http://www.ehow.com/list_6030279_col...#ixzz23ke3qRYF

It is a misdemeanor to drive a vehicle while fully aware that your license is under restraint or that you have no license at all. Upon conviction, you will be given a jail sentence from five to 180 days and face a fine of $50 to $500. Receiving probation or a suspended sentence will not be allowed, however, if you can prove that you drove only because of an emergency, the mandatory jail time and fine can be waived. If you violate the law again within a five year period, your license or privilege to drive can be suspended for three years. This section of the law became effective in July 1974 and applies only in cases that do not involve a history of driving under the influence of drugs or alcohol.
Any person who operates a motor vehicle, motor-driven
cycle or moped on the public streets and highways in
Colorado is required to be at least 16 years of age and have
a valid driver’s license.
RESIDENT: Per C.R.S. 42-1-102 (81), any person who owns
or operates a business in Colorado or who has resided
within the state continuously for 90 days or who has
obtained gainful employment within this state, whichever
shall occur first, is considered a Colorado resident. (See
New Resident §3)
SPECIAL EXEMPTIONS C.R.S. 42-2-102 AND 24-60-1106
The following persons need not obtain a Colorado License
provided they are 16 years of age or older and possess a valid
license from their home state or state of last assignment.
COLORADO RESIDENTS: Any resident of this state who
is employed in another state, where the laws of that state
require licensing to drive in order to engage in a regul

In Colorado if your stopped while behind the wheel of a motor vehicle on a public road or parking lot, its required to have a drivers license, and is ticket able if you do not provide the officer with said license. he was behind the wheel of a car sitting in a parking lot, no RAS needed to ask for a drivers license which is required by all drivers. Even having no proof could be ticket able. The LEO could have stopped him for anything what so ever and if he was or gets behind the wheel of a vehicle they can ask him to provide proof that he has a valid drivers license.

[mahkagari]

This sites going downhill, and fast.

Oh, poo. The trolls with no lives are always around. This room is usually good when the out of staters get bored being jealous of our fair state's natural beauty. Actually, last time when I was passing around the Rocky Mountain Oysters, they all left real quick. Hmmm. Lemme just run to the store.

[twoskinsonemanns]

The LEO could have stopped him for anything what so ever

Again please site the law to back up the claim an LEO can stop someone without RAS/PC ("anything what so ever").

That would certainly be some precedent setting law that we should know about.

[Fallschirmjäger]

And most people are above the petty attempts to denigrate another person using grammatical superiority quips.

On a side note, at the time of the "stop" were you operating a motor vehicle? keys in the ignition, started, listening to music, whatever? because if your operating a motor vehicle you have to provide drivers license. not going to cite, mostly because if the mods cant even handle personal attacks and things of that nature i don't really think i need to cite. not to mention any SMART person knows the law and knows you have to while operating a motor vehicle.

If Sparky hadn't made such a big thing about how SMART he was, and we by implication weren't, it wouldn't have been mentioned. So... not so SMART, and can't be bothered to provide a citation to authority. I don't see any reason for an apology.

And I'm not the one calling someone else "smartass!"

[OC for ME]

From the OP:

She apologized for the inconvenience and said she thought it was dumb to have to come out for a guy that was open carrying and asked for my ID.

The OP's account of what the cop stated.

Applying a traffic law to the OCer to justify the unlawful request for ID because he was OC. After he confirmed that he was the MWAG she should have said "Thanks, have a nice day."

Her request for ID is a pavlovian response. This pavlovian response is what I wish to help LE change via education. If it takes a judge to do the educationg then so be it.

If the OP chooses to not return and interact that is his decision and his loss.

[Gunslinger]

[QUOTE=In Colorado if your stopped while behind the wheel of a motor vehicle on a public road or parking lot, its required to have a drivers license, and is ticket able if you do not provide the officer with said license. he was behind the wheel of a car sitting in a parking lot, no RAS needed to ask for a drivers license which is required by all drivers. Even having no proof could be ticket able. The LEO could have stopped him for anything what so ever and if he was or gets behind the wheel of a vehicle they can ask him to provide proof that he has a valid drivers license.[/QUOTE]


You are absolutely wrong. No one can be "stopped," particularly while sitting in a car on private property with the ignition off, and be required to show a DL without PC or RAS. They cannot be stopped while driving, either--lacking PC or RAS. You can be pulled over for some chicken **** charge--plate light out, but that is a violation and PC. You cannot be required to present an ID while doing nothing illegal. Period. And that includes at DUI check points unless PC exists for actual DUI.

[MKEgal]

this site doesn't really attract too many people who are of the "give up rights for convenience" crowd.
On this site people like MKEgal (and many others) are heroes...

Where's that "toe in the dirt" smiley when you need it?
Sorta like Rosa Parks... I just don't like being pushed around.

Even while operating a motor vehicle LEO MUST have RAS to make a stop and demand ID.

Right. The Supreme Court case was Delaware v. Prouse.
Can't stop a car just to check for a valid license (registration, insurance, etc.).
That's why the tradition of claiming that a light is out came about. You both know full well that your lights are all just fine.
It logically follows that nobody can be required to show ID, or a license, simply for the peaceful exercise of a protected civil right.
Now, if you were standing across the street from a school while OC, they'd have RAS of a crime - that requires a license.
But the OP was sitting in & on private property. Knowing his name gave the officer no information that was useful in her determining that he wasn't doing anything illegal. She had no RAS of a crime to begin with.

Did it ever occur to you that an officer that doesn't have RAS when approaching a citizen might view their refusal to provide identification as RAS?
And I'd bet it could stand up in most courts too.

I know that's how way too many LEO think, but it's wrong.
And actually, in WI there is a Supreme Court ruling saying that refusing to give one's name is not obstruction. It's perfectly legal and not a crime to exercise your right to remain silent.

[McX]

people need to call this stuff in correctly when they want to put the man on a law abiding citizen. it should be GUN with a man call. 'cuz after all it's all about the gun right?

[papa bear]

first off let me say that the OP did nothing wrong and that his encounter was a pleasant one were no one was hurt. if a LEO approaches me and acts like they have good sense, then i would have no problem giving them my ID. of course i would have them understand i didn't have to. if of course they have an attitude i will clam up in a heart beat, and tell them to go pound sand

a couple of things;

a LEO has every right to request an ID. you do not have to provide one. though you could be arrested, that is something the courts have to sort out. i think you ought to stick up for your rights

M-T, if you don't want the rest of the nation to comment on what happens in CO. then i would suggest you go to a site that is just for CO and stay off a national site.

if the OP is so sensitive that they can't take people disagreeing with them, then we are probably better off without them

[mobiushky]

first off let me say that the OP did nothing wrong and that his encounter was a pleasant one were no one was hurt. if a LEO approaches me and acts like they have good sense, then i would have no problem giving them my ID. of course i would have them understand i didn't have to. if of course they have an attitude i will clam up in a heart beat, and tell them to go pound sand

a couple of things;

a LEO has every right to request an ID. you do not have to provide one. though you could be arrested, that is something the courts have to sort out. i think you ought to stick up for your rights

M-T, if you don't want the rest of the nation to comment on what happens in CO. then i would suggest you go to a site that is just for CO and stay off a national site.

if the OP is so sensitive that they can't take people disagreeing with them, then we are probably better off without them

Not to nit pick, but you should watch the video "Don't talk to the police."

I completely understand a persons desire to be polite. But what we often overlook is that the police aren't always the infallible examples of authority we hold them up to be. And sometimes they are sweet as honey and wonderfully nice people while they are trampling your rights and harassing you. And sometimes they are harassing you because they are bored. I'm not saying this because of a movie. I'm saying it because I know a cop who does it and he's proud of it. This is not an indictment of all LEO. I'm very proud of the police in our country and respect them immensely. But we are often too timid and sheep for our own good.

In that video the second half is presented by a police officer. IT's very eye opening. Did you know an officer can legally lie to you to try to trap you? Too much of what we think we know is based on TV and movies.

[F350]

Originally Posted by M-Taliesin
Did it ever occur to you that an officer that doesn't have RAS when approaching a citizen might view their refusal to provide identification as RAS?
And I'd bet it could stand up in most courts too.

Naw....I'm in a hurry packing to come to your side of the rock pile so I don't have time to find it; but I am sure SCOTUS already struck down this tactic; I believe it was in a vehicle search case; cops tried to use refusal of consensual search as probable cause to search anyway. So refusal of consent does not make RAS.

[Fallschirmjäger]

Did it ever occur to you that an officer that doesn't have RAS when approaching a citizen might view their refusal to provide identification as RAS?
And I'd bet it could stand up in most courts too.

Interesting perspective on things, would you mind helping me work through the logic?

Officer, "Good day, citizen, I wonder if there are any illegal drugs, guns, kidnapped cheerleaders, or other contraband in your car? What is your name?"
Driver, "John Smith, and yes, Officer, I do have contraband in my car."
Officer, "Thank you, citizen, now I can articulate a reasonable suspicion based on your answer that there is contraband in your car. Please exit the vehicle."

Officer, "Do you have any illegal drugs, guns, kidnapped cheerleaders, or other contraband in your car? What is your name?"
Driver, "I respectfully decline to answer any question without My attorney present, Officer."
Officer, "May I search your car, just to assure myself that you're telling the truth, no harm will come to you if there is anything in there."
Driver, "I do not give consent to have my car searched."
Officer, "AHA! Now I have a reasonable suspicion based on your refusal that there is contraband in your car. Please exit the vehicle."

So, in what possible scenario could an officer NOT have RAS given that either answer or no answer at all is "RAS"?

[LoneEchoWolf]

Again please site the law to back up the claim an LEO can stop someone without RAS/PC ("anything what so ever").

That would certainly be some precedent setting law that we should know about.

Your a ******* retard and im done with this site, i cannot stand stupid people that cannot read anything. ******* dumb ****. IF you READ WHAT I SAID i said that he could have been stopped for anything, meaning the cop could have stopped him for whatever RAS she had, i didnt say she could stop him with no RAS i SAID that if she had him stopped for any reason and he stepped inside a vehicle that she could ask to see his drivers license to verify that it is valid and he is not breaking a law before leaveing her scene, i dont need to cite that ****, cuz i already did, it says flat out its illegal to operate a motor vehicle without a valid drivers license, already cited that. and if its the law to have one, they can ask you for whatever they want. im done with stupid people that live no where close to colorado talking **** like they are some patriot and some big bad dude, when really your just some fat slob sitting behind a computer in WV being a complete retard. i hope someone crys and reports me to the mods, im quitting this site, i cant deal with tin foil retards anylonger. HOPE TO GOD YOU CRY LIKE A GIRL and report this as a personal attack, being it seems all you yourself can do is personally attack people and all this site is is one big **** box full of retards and tin foil hat lovers. im done, good day. now go **** up your own states and leave our beautiful state alone. have you noticed the drop in real colorado posters lately? thats because were done with your crazy ****** up way of thinking, and would rather discuss things between colorado members, not hear the oppinion of some retarded nut in WV spouting off at the mouth. **** YOU AND HAVE A NICE LIFE! Love the colorado board has become a **** box for all other states to come and talk **** without knowing anything about our state what so ever. our laws are diffrent, our attitudes are diffrent. yet they all are here. spoutin off at the mouth like they have lived or ever will live here. dont you all have a state your liveing in to be worried about. oh that would mean you would actully haveto get off your asses and do something. that wont work now will it

[kanekutter05]

Your a ******* retard and im done with this site, i cannot stand stupid people that cannot read anything. ******* dumb ****. IF you READ WHAT I SAID i said that he could have been stopped for anything, meaning the cop could have stopped him for whatever RAS she had, i didnt say she could stop him with no RAS i SAID that if she had him stopped for any reason and he stepped inside a vehicle that she could ask to see his drivers license to verify that it is valid and he is not breaking a law before leaveing her scene, i dont need to cite that ****, cuz i already did, it says flat out its illegal to operate a motor vehicle without a valid drivers license, already cited that. and if its the law to have one, they can ask you for whatever they want. im done with stupid people that live no where close to colorado talking **** like they are some patriot and some big bad dude, when really your just some fat slob sitting behind a computer in WV being a complete retard. i hope someone crys and reports me to the mods, im quitting this site, i cant deal with tin foil retards anylonger. HOPE TO GOD YOU CRY LIKE A GIRL and report this as a personal attack, being it seems all you yourself can do is personally attack people and all this site is is one big **** box full of retards and tin foil hat lovers. im done, good day. now go **** up your own states and leave our beautiful state alone. have you noticed the drop in real colorado posters lately? thats because were done with your crazy ****** up way of thinking, and would rather discuss things between colorado members, not hear the oppinion of some retarded nut in WV spouting off at the mouth. **** YOU AND HAVE A NICE LIFE! Love the colorado board has become a **** box for all other states to come and talk **** without knowing anything about our state what so ever. our laws are diffrent, our attitudes are diffrent. yet they all are here. spoutin off at the mouth like they have lived or ever will live here. dont you all have a state your liveing in to be worried about. oh that would mean you would actully haveto get off your asses and do something. that wont work now will it

Seriously? That couldn't have been a more infantile, childish, stupid response. I get what you were trying to say, but if you go back and look at what you said before Twoskins had a legit question (I thought the same thing myself because of how you worded your earlier responses). That's not productive, it's not cool and I honestly hope you get banned for it. Hell, let's go one further and get the hell out of Colorado. We don't need people like you here.

[JamesB]

Your a ******* retard and im done with this site, i cannot stand stupid people that cannot read anything. ******* dumb ****...snipped

Damn! I wonder what would have happened if he had stuck around to get to know us for an entire six months?

[LoneEchoWolf]

Seriously? That couldn't have been a more infantile, childish, stupid response. I get what you were trying to say, but if you go back and look at what you said before Twoskins had a legit question (I thought the same thing myself because of how you worded your earlier responses). That's not productive, it's not cool and I honestly hope you get banned for it. Hell, let's go one further and get the hell out of Colorado. We don't need people like you here.

HA you and your few posts, stay here and get slammed for anything you say thats fine. DONT CARE WHAT YOU THINK dont care if you dont think its not cool dont think you think i should move from colorado do not CARE WHAT YOU THINK. if you had more than 20 posts, i might consider careing a little about what you say but you obviously just joined and have no clue whats going on. I love you speak for all of Colorado, yet you are still here on this site, not in the loop and have no idea whats going on. As for how i worded things, dont care if you cant read things correctly hey thats not my fault, and if your confused about it, you can always just ask without being a disrespectful peice of **** too! I dont care what you hope and i dont care if i get banned, this site is junk full of un logical, tin foil hat wearing, im always right because i think im the king **** people and thus why i am already quitting. I dont care if you Get what im "trying to say" or not. Now for the getting the hell out of colorado. feel free to come make me. because as far as im aware, its a free country, and your not a ruler of Colorado or anywhere. Has the great leader ever attended or met with anyone from the colorado forum yet? or is it just another one of them, ill talk a whole lot, but when it comes down to meeting up and talking in person i cant. Maybe i got enough attention on this thread now, to get it closed down like we were asking so many times before everyone left.. doubtful!

[kanekutter05]

HA you and your few posts, stay here and get slammed for anything you say thats fine. DONT CARE WHAT YOU THINK dont care if you dont think its not cool dont think you think i should move from colorado do not CARE WHAT YOU THINK. if you had more than 20 posts, i might consider careing a little about what you say but you obviously just joined and have no clue whats going on. I love you speak for all of Colorado, yet you are still here on this site, not in the loop and have no idea whats going on. As for how i worded things, dont care if you cant read things correctly hey thats not my fault, and if your confused about it, you can always just ask without being a disrespectful peice of **** too! I dont care what you hope and i dont care if i get banned, this site is junk full of un logical, tin foil hat wearing, im always right because i think im the king **** people and thus why i am already quitting. I dont care if you Get what im "trying to say" or not. Now for the getting the hell out of colorado. feel free to come make me. because as far as im aware, its a free country, and your not a ruler of Colorado or anywhere. Has the great leader ever attended or met with anyone from the colorado forum yet? or is it just another one of them, ill talk a whole lot, but when it comes down to meeting up and talking in person i cant. Maybe i got enough attention on this thread now, to get it closed down like we were asking so many times before everyone left.. doubtful!

Thank you for proving my point at who childish you are. Yes you are right, my post count is lower than yours. Want a cookie? I guess I just have a job and a family and have less time to act like a child on the internet than you do. Forgive me.

And way to try and be a big bad man by threatening someone over the internet.

And as far as you not caring what I think...for you to not care as much as you say you do, you sure got awfully riled up at what I said. Now why is that...

And last thing...I will bet you anything you want to bet that you won't quit this forum because you will just HAVE to tell all of us how much you don't care what we think and how we're all wrong and blah blah blah...

[LoneEchoWolf]

Thank you for proving my point at who childish you are. Yes you are right, my post count is lower than yours. Want a cookie? I guess I just have a job and a family and have less time to act like a child on the internet than you do. Forgive me.

And way to try and be a big bad man by threatening someone over the internet.

And as far as you not caring what I think...for you to not care as much as you say you do, you sure got awfully riled up at what I said. Now why is that...

And last thing...I will bet you anything you want to bet that you won't quit this forum because you will just HAVE to tell all of us how much you don't care what we think and how we're all wrong and blah blah blah...

Read your in-box yo. and yes i do want a cookie please, but one of them giant ones from the Springs mall if its convenient for ya please! oh and since the grammar nazi will be on you shortly, its How childish i am, not who.

Oh never threatened you, just you saying get out, means someones going to be makeing me, and well figured that would be you! so i said feel free to

[Gunslinger]

Interesting perspective on things, would you mind helping me work through the logic?

Officer, "Good day, citizen, I wonder if there are any illegal drugs, guns, kidnapped cheerleaders, or other contraband in your car? What is your name?"
Driver, "John Smith, and yes, Officer, I do have contraband in my car."
Officer, "Thank you, citizen, now I can articulate a reasonable suspicion based on your answer that there is contraband in your car. Please exit the vehicle."

Officer, "Do you have any illegal drugs, guns, kidnapped cheerleaders, or other contraband in your car? What is your name?"
Driver, "I respectfully decline to answer any question without My attorney present, Officer."
Officer, "May I search your car, just to assure myself that you're telling the truth, no harm will come to you if there is anything in there."
Driver, "I do not give consent to have my car searched."
Officer, "AHA! Now I have a reasonable suspicion based on your refusal that there is contraband in your car. Please exit the vehicle."

So, in what possible scenario could an officer NOT have RAS given that either answer or no answer at all is "RAS"?

Answer to first question, "If I did, why in the world would I give up my 5th amendment rights and tell you?" Answer to second, "I've alread informed you that I will not answer any questions without my attorney present, under the 5th Amendment. This discussion is ended." Any further questions or any activity of search is therefore unlawful and would be excluded under 'fruit of the poison tree.'

[Fallschirmjäger]

I do not disagree with you in the least (in fact I'm in full agreement), but the premise was that a refusal to answer the officer's questions gives him RAS.

If answering gives him RAS and not answering gives him RAS, then is there any way he wouldn't be able to conduct a search using the premise stated?

[twoskinsonemanns]

Your a ******* retard and im done with this site,

Was it something I said?

Also fallsch: I think maybe T-M slipped up when he said that and doesn't trully believe it. Hopefully he'll get back sometime converse a little more.

[Fallschirmjäger]

I hope so, he's one of the more reasoned, intelligent posters here (not that the rest aren't!) and even if he doesn't believe it, it might be good to have someone play the Devil's Advocate on some subjects.

[Gunslinger]

I do not disagree with you in the least (in fact I'm in full agreement), but the premise was that a refusal to answer the officer's questions gives him RAS.

If answering gives him RAS and not answering gives him RAS, then is there any way he wouldn't be able to conduct a search using the premise stated?

RAS must exist 'prior' to a detainment. If it doesn't, lack of answering questions under the 5th A protection does not create it. RAS can't be made out of whole cloth and a search still cannot be made without a warrant. RAS doesn't grant authority for a search, merely a stop. PC must be shown to proceed. And that is hard to establish when the suspect stands there saying nothing. Franks v. Delaware, 438 U.S. 154, 98 S.Ct. 2674, 57 L.Ed.2d 667 (1978), PC must stand on its own for a warrant to be granted.

[twoskinsonemanns]

RAS must exist 'prior' to a detainment. If it doesn't, lack of answering questions under the 5th A protection does not create it. RAS can't be made out of whole cloth and a search still cannot be made without a warrant. RAS doesn't grant authority for a search, merely a stop. PC must be shown to proceed. And that is hard to establish when the suspect stands there saying nothing. Franks v. Delaware, 438 U.S. 154, 98 S.Ct. 2674, 57 L.Ed.2d 667 (1978), PC must stand on its own for a warrant to be granted.

you couldn't be more right.

[DillonT]

What have I got to hide? Besides, I've always been the suspicious type when asking for something and not getting it because it was my job to check up on things to make sure everything is on the up and up.....but that's just me (Coming from military experience). Being suspicious of every cop can't be healthy.

^^This^^ Saying never talk to a LEO is just unfounded and very poor advice IMHO.

I love these kind of calls (yes, had one on me and was drawn upon by 5 officers). So stupid, same thing members of my family say to me when I OC. Would a shooter walk into a building openly displaying a handgun on his hip? No!