My very first MWAG call....HAHA

lockman said:

The rules for producing ID are a little different when you are sitting behind the wheel of a motor vehicle.

If the request was not for an ID but for a drivers license would it be different?

But being private property and the officer did not witness the operation of the vehicle I suppose my question would not apply in this case. As for RAS we never know what the complaint may have conveyed to the police.

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Not sure about his state, but I know that in NC, sitting in the driver's seat in a "public vehicular area", which this parking lot would more than likely qualify, the officer would have been legally within her rights to request (and get) your driver's license.

I have to side with the OP on this one...she did not request that he exit the vehicle, show the firearm, or produce anything more than had he been on the street in the car. As the saying goes, "not sure that the juice is worth the squeeze" resisting the ID request on this one, especially since he was giving his buddy a ride for a job.

Now, if you want to make as issue about a private individual being "required" to have a license in the first place for the right to travel upon the highways in a non-commercial manner....that is another discussion!

Another officer's habit of doing what they always do reenforced.

Good that it worked out for you. Good luck and carry on.

Torque - IMHO you handled it fine. Good MWAG experience.

I think it is important for us who OC to have thought through how we will handle such events. In my mind there is not much reason to be paranoid and snippy about it. Friendly is where I choose to start. That said we need to know the laws and our rights. But that doesn't mean we have to get nasty and demand them at every chance. We have minds to be rational about it. There may be times where our rights are being un-rationally challenged and those are not the proper time to cower but rather stand up. There are times and there are seasons. Rationally pick them - they are not all battle cries!

He did fine. This is the world we live in people are scared to death of cops. This is the way that want it.

He got intimidated by the lady cop and complied voluntarily to every request she made. Could happen to anyone.

Also even in a vehicle a cop has to have a REASON to detain you and seize your ID. Unless you roll onto your back and volunteer it I guess.

wmodavis said:

Torque - IMHO you handled it fine. Good MWAG experience.

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Howdy Pard!
Being with me on your first OC outing, and having the cops called on a MWAG deal, you already know that I was not asked for I.D., nor were you.
The cops were friendly and nice, and never asked for identification.

But did you also notice that the one officer did a mild attempt at fishing?

"You look familiar to me." That was an attempt to get me to identify myself.
"Well, you likely have seen me metal detecing in that park right over there. I believe you may have been the officer who sat there one night in his squad car while I searched the place with my machine."

That pretty much ended his fishing expedition.

Another favorite phrase I use is "Yeah, I get that all the time. Evidently, I have a whole lot of twin brothers I never knew about growing up!"

Chortle, chortle, smile and nod. End of discussion.

Blessings,
M-Taliesin

hammer6 said:

burnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnn

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Howdy Hammer!
It was sorta epic. Two officers approached, trying to be sneaky about it, but I saw them and came walking around the back of my Jeep.
I more or less caught them by surprise as they thought they were being sneaky. When I came into view, they appeared taken aback.

There was some discussion about an activity I had been engaged in, and after they said what was on their mind, I simply replied:
"Thanks for bringing that to my attention. I will exercise greater discretion in that going forward. Have a great day and be safe out there!"
Whereupon, I turned on my heel and walked away. I didn't bother to ask if I was free to leave, I simply made clear that I was done with them.
Walking back over to where Keens stood waiting, they looked splendidly perplexed. I don't think they expected to be simply blown off as I did.

They had a few words with one another, then got back in their patrol car and drove away... sorta.
They crossed the street to a nearby gas station and sat there watching us.

Keens and I completed our own visit together and we got in our cars and drove away.

Since then, I wonder what those guys thought when I simply dismissed them and went back to going about my own business.
Just left them standing there with their badges hanging out.

Blessings,
M-Taliesin

twoskinsonemanns said:

He got intimidated by the lady cop and complied voluntarily to every request.

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Getting the cop to go away faster so I could continue with my day is considered being "intimidated"? Sorry....no

Torquemaster69 said:

What have I got to hide? Besides, I've always been the suspicious type when asking for something and not getting it because it was my job to check up on things to make sure everything is on the up and up.....but that's just me (Coming from military experience). Being suspicious of every cop can't be healthy.

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Trusting every cop can be unhealthyer

Torquemaster69 said:

Getting the cop to go away faster so I could continue with my day is considered being "intimidated"? Sorry....no

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Sorry that was an assumption on my part. I suppose you would have and answered questions and produced ID for any non-LEO out there to make them go away fast. I guess the lady cops badge and gun had nothing to do with it. My bad.

Torquemaster69 said:

I had my first MWAG call today......She laughed and agreed with me and then I gave my ID to her since she was nice about it and asked me what I had after she came back. I told her what it was and asked me what I was waiting on. I told her I was waiting on a friend and she said ok, told me to have a nice day and left.

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So was she hawt???? If so I would have asked when her shift ended so we could go discuss the proper use of handcuffs over a cup of coffee!

The OP handled it fine.

However, the officer parking behind him is a strong indication that she was detaining him, which means she needed reasonable suspicion that he was breaking the law, and going off a person's tip that a guy is following the law, I don't think a reasonable person would suspect a crime was happening. Therefore I would have asked first thing if she was detaining me, and if she was, I would probably stop talking to her

If she blocked the OP from leaving by parking behind him, then she definitely did detain him, and I would argue she did it illegally because there was no reasonable suspicion that he was breaking the law by sitting in his car with a holstered gun. If the caller reported something else or lied, then she might have had a little more reasonable suspicion but I would not detain somebody off one person's call. I would ask other people what they saw before detaining

Look.....I'm pro 2a.....but I'm starting to see the "fanatisism" of some of the members here. I don't make an ass of myself and to assume that "I would have and answered questions and produced ID for any non-LEO out there to make them go away fast" is just plain retarded, I'm sorry....but that was just stupid:banghead: And "Complied to every request made"? she had only ONE request...."can I see your ID?" Really?...is it really that hard to hand over a piece of plastic so they can check to see if you have any warrants and 2 minutes later, being on your way? Have a good day all....you may or may not see me on here after some of the posts on this thread anymore

Torquemaster69 said:

Look.....I'm pro 2a.....but I'm starting to see the "fanatisism" of some of the members here. I don't make an ass of myself and to assume that "I would have and answered questions and produced ID for any non-LEO out there to make them go away fast" is just plain retarded, I'm sorry....but that was just stupid:banghead: And "Complied to every request made"? she had only ONE request...."can I see your ID?" Really?...is it really that hard to hand over a piece of plastic so they can check to see if you have any warrants and 2 minutes later, being on your way? Have a good day all....you may or may not see me on here after some of the posts on this thread anymore

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Ah, don't go away bro....opinions are like a-holes... everybody has one. Bear in mind it's always easy for someone else to be an armchair quarterback. Some of these folks with hardline opinions might act differently if placed in the same situation...or not. Who knows? Who cares? The bottom line is you walked away quickly from a situation that didn't escalate. Dealing with cops is like shooting craps...you just never know when you may roll snake eyes. Just because someone wants to take a hard line stance because they are right doesn't mean they won't go to jail or get their ass beat down by a dirty 5-0. Things that should be black and white seldom are... It sounds like you handled it well and walked away. How can that be anything but good? I know it sucks to come here to share a positive story and then unexpectedly get your teeth kicked in over one of the details. You made the best judgment call for your situation and it worked out. Kudos to you!

Torquemaster69 said:

All I see is a bunch of paranoia talking to be honest. She KNEW I was carrying. The people inside obviously described me and the vehicle I was in (I don't exactly have a non-descript vehicle) since it was almost right at the front door and before she drove into the parking lot, I did notice a few employees coming outside and looking at me and another friend that was riding with me (Total of 3, one inside talking with HR and the other with me). She was seeing if I was going to lie about it. AGAIN, from my experience in the military, it was perfectly normal questions and I had nothing to hide. But I guess that was obvious to me. What could she POSSIBLY do with my ID to arrest me with no previous record. OH WAIT...she doesn't know who I am and why I am there and for all she knows, I am a felon. And what happened once she found nothing? 5 minutes later she left vs arguing and 30 minutes later still arguing. Yeah, you don't HAVE to show ID....but I CHOSE to to get her out of my hair faster

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You did what you thought correct. However, she had no legal authority to ask for an ID, none. I would not have given it to her and remarked "don't you ever learn?" "For all she knows I am a felon." Any cop could use that logic to stop anyone, anytime. Read Terry v OH. CO law exactly mimics this decision.

Torquemaster69 said:

And "Complied to every request made"? she had only ONE request...."can I see your ID?"

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Well, you complied with 1/1 requests, so technically it was 100%, so yeah it was every request..... j/k

Note that the "fanatacism" is only from "some" board members and in this sub-forum, from very few Coloradans. Many of the "fanatatics" aren't as fanatical as they make themselves out to be, but they're trolls so they need to diss on something to make their lives worthy. Don't take the bait. As a rule of thumb in the CO sub-forum, check the location of the poster. If something seems unnecessarily harsh and it comes from an out of stater, take a breath and let it die. We get a lot of non-COan's who do fly-by trolls trying to justify their existence. They're like your teeth. Ignore them and they'll go away.

I certainly don't want to portray "fanaticism". But I also don't want to voluntarily forfeit my rights as assured by the 4A, or encourage LOEs out there to continue the belief they can "demand your papers" at anytime even without RAS.

Am I fanatical about our rights? I hope not. But maybe I am, because I can't even picture someone so adamant about their rights that I would call them fanatical any long as their actions are legal.

Oh, noes! I haven't weighed in on the subject! I voluntarily forfeited my 1A rights! Quick, for the sake of your 1A rights everyone post something so this thread goes on for 15 pages of the same tired, worn out arguements over a small incident detracting us from the most important question! I.e., OP, was she a redhead?

Maybe I'm about to kick a hornet's nest here, but here goes. One of the issues I am curious about is that now Torquemaster, your name and ID are included in a police report. One that #1 is public record and #2 could potentially be used against you if something, God forbid, were to ever go "not your way." I'm not inciting paranoia. Just things sometimes we forget about. I won't begrudge you your choices on how you handle situations. I honestly don't really care if you want to show ID or what ever. I'm just more curious to know your thoughts about the public record aspects.

I think there is a very pleasant and amicable way to refuse if you so choose. Positive demeanor goes a long way. Again, not commenting on your choice. Not criticizing at all.

My personal feeling is that I would be hesitant to provide any ID unless the situation was due to being arrested. But that's me.

Some useful enlightening videos:

How to Remain silent when questioned by Police

Don't Talk to Cops (PLEASE WATCH, Important for any and all Law Enforcement Encounters)

DUI Refusal

Another DUI refusal

Officers were educated on ID'ing, were polite and professional and admitted they were wrong on video

How to refuse a Police Search

Torquemaster69 said:

Look.....I'm pro 2a.....but I'm starting to see the "fanatisism" of some of the members here. I don't make an ass of myself and to assume that "I would have and answered questions and produced ID for any non-LEO out there to make them go away fast" is just plain retarded, I'm sorry....but that was just stupid:banghead: And "Complied to every request made"? she had only ONE request...."can I see your ID?" Really?...is it really that hard to hand over a piece of plastic so they can check to see if you have any warrants and 2 minutes later, being on your way? Have a good day all....you may or may not see me on here after some of the posts on this thread anymore

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Giving Officer Friendly an identification card (in the USA the driving license is the de facto ID as there is no ID card de jure) is absolutely no sort of guarantee or even indication that the stop will end quickly. If anything, Officer Friendly now has a way to hold you hostage, lest you depart without your personal papers.

You may be 100% innocent and still go to jail. The BEST plan of action is to avoid Officer Friendly when you can, and failing that to minimize engagement with Officer Friendly.

Just give us your name and you'll be on your way.
Just give us your identify card and you'll be on your way.
Just put your finger on the scanner so we can check your prints and you'll be on your way.
Just spit into the cup so we can check your DNA against any open cases and you'll be on your way.

Officer Friendly is only looking to do his job
Officer Friendly is looking for indicators of criminal activity
Officer Friendly is looking for wanted criminals
Officer Friendly is looking to put someone in jail
... and Officer Friendly is looking at you.


If you leave, you won't be the first and you won't be the last. It's your decision, make the right one.