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Thread: After how many drinks is carrying a no-no?

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    After how many drinks is carrying a no-no?

    After a few points were raised in my last thread, I got to thinking about this subject. There were some references to a WA state law saying an officer can take a firearm if you have a CPL and appear intoxicated. I don't stop carrying if I have a beer or two with dinner, but if I hit three or four, thats usually when the gun hits the safe or the glovebox. I'd say its on par with drinking and driving, and that the limit should be the same. However, a few questions:

    Would you say this applies to concealed and open the same amount?

    What is your cutoff limit? More or less than driving? One could argue motor skills, etc for driving a car are different from operating a firearm.


    I personally think the main issue isn't that if people drink, they are going to start brandishing and acting like idiots with their firearms. I would say it moreso has to do with if you are faced with a self-defense situation with a firearm, even a small amount of alcohol could affect your judgement in a negative way. It could be the catalyst that barely tips you over the edge to pulling that trigger when the situation could have been avoided/ended without doing so.

    Thoughts on this?

    PS: Sorry for the barrage of new threads and questions. In the short time I've been posting on this forum, I've learned a ton, and with a sensitive subject like firearms, I want to know as much as possible, and be as best prepared as possible.

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    Regular Member Maine Expat's Avatar
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    No need to apologize for asking for information.

    I normally won't drink even one beer while carrying, but one is my personal limit when I'm out for dinner and want something stronger than iced tea.

    I also have a commercial DL (Bus, etc) so the legal limit is much lower anyway, like 0.04 instead of the usual 0.08.
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    Regular Member OC for ME's Avatar
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    First read and understand the applicable laws, even down to the municipal level.

    RSMo 571.010. Definitions. As used in this chapter, the following terms shall mean:

    (11) "Intoxicated", substantially impaired mental or physical capacity resulting from introduction of any substance into the body;

    RSMo 571.030. Unlawful use of weapons--exceptions--penalties.

    1. A person commits the crime of unlawful use of weapons if he or she knowingly:

    (5) Has a firearm or projectile weapon readily capable of lethal use on his or her person, while he or she is intoxicated, and handles or otherwise uses such firearm or projectile weapon in either a negligent or unlawful manner or discharges such firearm or projectile weapon unless acting in self-defense;

    5. Subdivisions (3), (4), (5), (6), (7), (8), (9), and (10) of subsection 1 of this section shall not apply to persons who are engaged in a lawful act of defense pursuant to section 563.031.
    Non alcoholic beer is available.

    Know your limits and act accordingly. Just cuz you have a "beer" in your hand does not mean that you are impaired.

    In Missouri anyway it is a non-issue. It has always been a non-issue for me and especially so on my property.
    "I would rather be exposed to the inconveniences attending too much liberty than to those attending too small a degree of it." - Thomas Jefferson.

    "Better that ten guilty persons escape, than that one innocent suffer" - English jurist William Blackstone.
    It is AFAIK original to me. Compromise is failure on the installment plan, particularly when dealing with so intractable an opponent as ignorance. - Nightmare

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    Regular Member Schlepnier's Avatar
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    Thumbs up

    After how many drinks is carrying a no-no?
    1



    Carrying a firearm comes with a higher level of responsability, that means you cannot behave in certain ways in my book, drinking is a no-go. when you put your firearm up you can drink, otherwise never.


    i only drink at home when i am able to put my weapons away.
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    Regular Member amlevin's Avatar
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    If you don't know the answer to your question already then I'd suggest you aren't ready to carry a firearm yet.

    but if I hit three or four, thats usually when the gun hits the safe or the glovebox.
    The safe might work at home but if you've had a few beers and are driving, putting it in the glovebox won't insulate you from the primary issue, that of driving while possibly being above the .08 limit.

    Even if you don't exceed that limit, you can still be charged if an officer feels you are under the influence. The .08 number is merely the point where it changes from "subjective" to "presumed". People are still convicted of driving under the influence even though they test less than the .08 threshold.

    At least you do recognize that alcohol and guns are not a good mix.
    "If I shoot all the ammo I am carrying I either won't need anymore or more won't help"

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  6. #6
    Regular Member acmariner99's Avatar
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    My personal preference is that alcohol and firearms do not mix in any way, shape, or form.

    If I'm carrying, I don't drink.
    If I'm drinking, I don't carry.

  7. #7
    Campaign Veteran gogodawgs's Avatar
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    Generally it's one or two while in public, either OC or CC. Consider this is only done over time. This will not put me over the legal limit for driving. I have no problem with responsible people doing the responsible thing and having a beverage with a meal or a beverage with a friend.

    To know your body and your limits you can start with a BAC calculator. http://bloodalcoholcalculator.org/

    Those that are younger and perhaps have less experience with how your body processes alcohol, take the time to learn. If you take other OTC or prescription drugs consider the consequences with those as well.
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    Regular Member waterfowl woody's Avatar
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    what if you are out having a few drinks, and let me tell you people that drink smell like a drink, all of a sudden you need to protect yourself from a violent attack and use your firearm. The police will smell you and report.
    Do you think your day in court will be good?

    when you choose to put your gun on your hip keep the drinks off your lips.

    If you open carry don't give the public an image of a drunk with a gun.

    that's my 2 cents.

  9. #9
    State Researcher Bill Starks's Avatar
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    This is one of those threads that no matter how many times you publish the RCW..... personal opinion seems to be "the law in effect." Yes, some of us do drink and carry, some of you don't. As the ads say "Be responsible, know your limits"

  10. #10
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    I know my limit, but, unfortunately I always get drunk before I reach it.

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    Zero.

    I know that I myself could handle several, however, I never drink at any point in time when I have to drive. I usually have my children with me and I am the only driver and while carrying adds to that burden. Not trying to be a poop but I am against it.

  12. #12
    Regular Member hermannr's Avatar
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    DUI is the DUI limit if driving, boating, or carrying...they all reference back to the DUI law.

    Personally, I am too cheap to drink somewhere other than home, except maybe one Alpine if I am at a restaraunt that serves it. Can't puchase Alpine in bottles (brewed in Oroville). Really good small German brewery.

  13. #13
    Founder's Club Member protias's Avatar
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    So if I relax and enjoy a delicious beverage, I lose my right to self defense?
    No free man shall ever be debarred the use of arms. Thomas Jefferson (1776)

    If you go into a store, with a gun, and rob it, you have forfeited your right to not get shot - Joe Deters, Hamilton County (Cincinnati) Prosecutor

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    Regular Member VW_Factor's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by M1Gunr View Post
    This is one of those threads that no matter how many times you publish the RCW..... personal opinion seems to be "the law in effect." Yes, some of us do drink and carry, some of you don't. As the ads say "Be responsible, know your limits"
    +1

    I'll have a drink with dinner or a meal or something if I'm out with friends.

    Know yourself and know those around you. Be responsible.
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    I am no victim, just a poor college student who looks to the day where the rich have the living piss taxed out of them.

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    Regular Member OC for ME's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by protias View Post
    So if I relax and enjoy a delicious beverage, I lose my right to self defense?
    According to some around here.....yes, you do.
    "I would rather be exposed to the inconveniences attending too much liberty than to those attending too small a degree of it." - Thomas Jefferson.

    "Better that ten guilty persons escape, than that one innocent suffer" - English jurist William Blackstone.
    It is AFAIK original to me. Compromise is failure on the installment plan, particularly when dealing with so intractable an opponent as ignorance. - Nightmare

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    Regular Member Jay Jacobs's Avatar
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    I wonder how many/often LEO's disarm themselves before consuming alcohol?

  17. #17
    Regular Member OC for ME's Avatar
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    .....is that a rhetorical question?
    "I would rather be exposed to the inconveniences attending too much liberty than to those attending too small a degree of it." - Thomas Jefferson.

    "Better that ten guilty persons escape, than that one innocent suffer" - English jurist William Blackstone.
    It is AFAIK original to me. Compromise is failure on the installment plan, particularly when dealing with so intractable an opponent as ignorance. - Nightmare

  18. #18
    Opt-Out Members BigDave's Avatar
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    Man things are snowballing sort of speak on this topic.

    Take time to read the RCW and understand what forfeiture is and who is able to forfeit the firearm ie The superior courts and the courts of limited jurisdiction so there must be a court action and it be proven in court a violation of the RCW to lose the weapon. This does not mean the officer cannot take possession of the firearm in these cases it must have a court action to forfeit it.

    The item when it comes to in this discussion is consuming alcohol while being armed (personally I rarely partake and when I do it maybe be 2 in a couple of hours, that is my choice) though for RCW 9.41.098(e) to apply it must be in a place where a concealed weapon is required and is under the influence of drugs or alcohol as described in RCW 46.61.
    If one is sitting in a restaurant open carrying or at home, a friends or any where else it is not a requirement to have a cpl or committing a crime to be in legal possession then the RCW does not apply.

    RCW 46.61.502 Driving under the influence.
    (1) A person is guilty of driving while under the influence of intoxicating liquor or any drug if the person drives a vehicle within this state:
    (a) And the person has, within two hours after driving, an alcohol concentration of 0.08 or higher as shown by analysis of the person's breath or blood made under RCW 46.61.506; or
    (b) While the person is under the influence of or affected by intoxicating liquor or any drug; or
    (c) While the person is under the combined influence of or affected by intoxicating liquor and any drug.
    Note the qualifiers here, a, b, c and it was brought to my attention before that you can be arrested for a DUI when you have a Blood Alcohol under .08 do to the wording in (b) and (c) as under the influence.

    RCW 9.41.098
    Forfeiture of firearms — Disposition — Confiscation.

    (1) The superior courts and the courts of limited jurisdiction of the state may order forfeiture of a firearm which is proven to be:
    (a) Found concealed on a person not authorized by RCW 9.41.060 or 9.41.070 to carry a concealed pistol: PROVIDED, That it is an absolute defense to forfeiture if the person possessed a valid Washington concealed pistol license within the preceding two years and has not become ineligible for a concealed pistol license in the interim. Before the firearm may be returned, the person must pay the past due renewal fee and the current renewal fee;
    (b) Commercially sold to any person without an application as required by RCW 9.41.090;
    (c) In the possession of a person prohibited from possessing the firearm under RCW 9.41.040 or 9.41.045;
    (d) In the possession or under the control of a person at the time the person committed or was arrested for committing a felony or committing a nonfelony crime in which a firearm was used or displayed;
    (e) In the possession of a person who is in any place in which a concealed pistol license is required, and who is under the influence of any drug or under the influence of intoxicating liquor, as defined in chapter 46.61 RCW;
    (f) In the possession of a person free on bail or personal recognizance pending trial, appeal, or sentencing for a felony or for a nonfelony crime in which a firearm was used or displayed, except that violations of Title 77 RCW shall not result in forfeiture under this section;
    (g) In the possession of a person found to have been mentally incompetent while in possession of a firearm when apprehended or who is thereafter committed pursuant to chapter 10.77 or 71.05 RCW;
    (h) Used or displayed by a person in the violation of a proper written order of a court of general jurisdiction; or
    (i) Used in the commission of a felony or of a nonfelony crime in which a firearm was used or displayed.

    (2) Upon order of forfeiture, the court in its discretion may order destruction of any forfeited firearm. A court may temporarily retain forfeited firearms needed for evidence.
    (a) Except as provided in (b), (c), and (d) of this subsection, firearms that are: (i) Judicially forfeited and no longer needed for evidence; or (ii) forfeited due to a failure to make a claim under RCW 63.32.010 or 63.40.010; may be disposed of in any manner determined by the local legislative authority. Any proceeds of an auction or trade may be retained by the legislative authority. This subsection (2)(a) applies only to firearms that come into the possession of the law enforcement agency after June 30, 1993.

    By midnight, June 30, 1993, every law enforcement agency shall prepare an inventory, under oath, of every firearm that has been judicially forfeited, has been seized and may be subject to judicial forfeiture, or that has been, or may be, forfeited due to a failure to make a claim under RCW 63.32.010 or 63.40.010.
    (b) Except as provided in (c) of this subsection, of the inventoried firearms a law enforcement agency shall destroy illegal firearms, may retain a maximum of ten percent of legal forfeited firearms for agency use, and shall either:
    (i) Comply with the provisions for the auction of firearms in RCW 9.41.098 that were in effect immediately preceding May 7, 1993; or
    (ii) Trade, auction, or arrange for the auction of, rifles and shotguns. In addition, the law enforcement agency shall either trade, auction, or arrange for the auction of, short firearms, or shall pay a fee of twenty-five dollars to the state treasurer for every short firearm neither auctioned nor traded, to a maximum of fifty thousand dollars. The fees shall be accompanied by an inventory, under oath, of every short firearm listed in the inventory required by (a) of this subsection, that has been neither traded nor auctioned. The state treasurer shall credit the fees to the firearms range account established in RCW 79A.25.210. All trades or auctions of firearms under this subsection shall be to licensed dealers. Proceeds of any auction less costs, including actual costs of storage and sale, shall be forwarded to the firearms range account established in RCW 79A.25.210.
    (c) Antique firearms and firearms recognized as curios, relics, and firearms of particular historical significance by the United States treasury department *bureau of alcohol, tobacco, and firearms are exempt from destruction and shall be disposed of by auction or trade to licensed dealers.
    (d) Firearms in the possession of the Washington state patrol on or after May 7, 1993, that are judicially forfeited and no longer needed for evidence, or forfeited due to a failure to make a claim under RCW 63.35.020, must be disposed of as follows: (i) Firearms illegal for any person to possess must be destroyed; (ii) the Washington state patrol may retain a maximum of ten percent of legal firearms for agency use; and (iii) all other legal firearms must be auctioned or traded to licensed dealers. The Washington state patrol may retain any proceeds of an auction or trade.

    (3) The court shall order the firearm returned to the owner upon a showing that there is no probable cause to believe a violation of subsection (1) of this section existed or the firearm was stolen from the owner or the owner neither had knowledge of nor consented to the act or omission involving the firearm which resulted in its forfeiture.

    (4) A law enforcement officer of the state or of any county or municipality may confiscate a firearm found to be in the possession of a person under circumstances specified in subsection (1) of this section. After confiscation, the firearm shall not be surrendered except: (a) To the prosecuting attorney for use in subsequent legal proceedings; (b) for disposition according to an order of a court having jurisdiction as provided in subsection (1) of this section; or (c) to the owner if the proceedings are dismissed or as directed in subsection (3) of this section.
    Last edited by BigDave; 08-14-2012 at 01:37 PM.
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  19. #19
    Regular Member twoskinsonemanns's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by waterfowl woody View Post
    what if you are out having a few drinks, and let me tell you people that drink smell like a drink, all of a sudden you need to protect yourself from a violent attack and use your firearm. The police will smell you and report.
    Do you think your day in court will be good?

    when you choose to put your gun on your hip keep the drinks off your lips.

    If you open carry don't give the public an image of a drunk with a gun.

    that's my 2 cents.
    Well I would rather have a not so good day in court than be dead.... Or god forbid one of my family.

    Personally my gun on my hip just doesn't change my behavior. I wouldn't go in public and drink enough to impair me driving home, so for me it is a non-issue. If I have a beer or two while eating at TGIFs I don't have any issue driving back home or carrying a firearm.

    But I do appreciate those with the no guns & alcohol view point. If you know you're the type of person who can't be responsible with alcohol you shouldn't carry. you really shouldn't drink at all.
    Last edited by twoskinsonemanns; 08-14-2012 at 05:40 PM. Reason: typo
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    With all of this having been said.... how is the law going to look at you in case of a self-defense shooting? Yes...you may have been well within your right to defend yourself... however you are also intoxicated. It means your judgement is going to be impaired no matter what your BAC is. I would bet a prosecutor would jump all over that and 2nd guess everything that happens. Now there will always be other deciding factors, but I know I'll be at odds with most when I say that I would rather be a victim, than potentially end up in prison. To me thats hell on earth.

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    Regular Member DEROS72's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by M1Gunr View Post
    This is one of those threads that no matter how many times you publish the RCW..... personal opinion seems to be "the law in effect." Yes, some of us do drink and carry, some of you don't. As the ads say "Be responsible, know your limits"
    No one here has been to my house for the OC gatherings we've had have they Bill?
    Last edited by DEROS72; 08-14-2012 at 02:33 PM.

  22. #22
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    Quote Originally Posted by M1Gunr View Post
    This is one of those threads that no matter how many times you publish the RCW..... personal opinion seems to be "the law in effect." Yes, some of us do drink and carry, some of you don't. As the ads say "Be responsible, know your limits"
    But.......... but............ but............ that is using common sense, we can't have that here.

  23. #23
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    Quote Originally Posted by BigDave View Post
    Man things are snowballing sort of speak on this topic.

    Take time to read the RCW and understand what forfeiture is and who is able to forfeit the firearm ie The superior courts and the courts of limited jurisdiction so there must be a court action and it be proven in court a violation of the RCW to lose the weapon. This does not mean the officer cannot take possession of the firearm in these cases it must have a court action to forfeit it.

    The item when it comes to in this discussion is consuming alcohol while being armed (personally I rarely partake and when I do it maybe be 2 in a couple of hours, that is my choice) though for RCW 9.41.098(e) to apply it must be in a place where a concealed weapon is required and is under the influence of drugs or alcohol as described in RCW 46.61.
    If one is sitting in a restaurant open carrying or at home, a friends or any where else it is not a requirement to have a cpl or committing a crime to be in legal possession then the RCW does not apply.



    Note the qualifiers here, a, b, c and it was brought to my attention before that you can be arrested for a DUI when you have a Blood Alcohol under .08 do to the wording in (b) and (c) as under the influence.
    Dave you have nailed it several times, it is as clear as it can be. If they do not understand now they never will. I blame the public schools.

  24. #24
    Regular Member Beretta92FSLady's Avatar
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    A person ought to have ZERO drinks when carrying. Should there be a law stating that?...NO! If someone wants to put their life in jeopardy by drinking and carrying, go for it. What I mean by that is, say you are at the bar, and you have a drink...or two, then head home--outside the bar you run into trouble, and defend yourself...i sn't that dandy, the officers respond, then you blow a .08+-...like I stated, it's your life, and you may be dragged through the courts because of it, even after a legitimate shoot.
    I don't mind watching the OC-Community (tea party 2.0's, who have hijacked the OC-Community) cannibalize itself. I do mind watching OC dragged through the gutter. OC is an exercise of A Right. I choose to not OC; I choose to not own firearms. I choose to leave the OC-Community to it's own self-inflicted injuries, and eventual implosion. Carry on...

  25. #25
    Regular Member Fuller Malarkey's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jay Jacobs View Post
    I wonder how many/often LEO's disarm themselves before consuming alcohol?
    Good question. Clinically treated alcohol addiction rates are usually calculated to be about twice as high for police officers than for the general population in the United States. Typically, treatment is only sought to avoid consequences. The vast majority of police with alcoholism continue in their jobs, protected by the "thin blue line".
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