After how many drinks is carrying a no-no?

M1Gunr said:

This is one of those threads that no matter how many times you publish the RCW..... personal opinion seems to be "the law in effect." Yes, some of us do drink and carry, some of you don't. As the ads say "Be responsible, know your limits"

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No one here has been to my house for the OC gatherings we've had have they Bill?

M1Gunr said:

This is one of those threads that no matter how many times you publish the RCW..... personal opinion seems to be "the law in effect." Yes, some of us do drink and carry, some of you don't. As the ads say "Be responsible, know your limits"

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But.......... but............ but............ that is using common sense, we can't have that here.

BigDave said:

Man things are snowballing sort of speak on this topic.

Take time to read the RCW and understand what forfeiture is and who is able to forfeit the firearm ie The superior courts and the courts of limited jurisdiction so there must be a court action and it be proven in court a violation of the RCW to lose the weapon. This does not mean the officer cannot take possession of the firearm in these cases it must have a court action to forfeit it.

The item when it comes to in this discussion is consuming alcohol while being armed (personally I rarely partake and when I do it maybe be 2 in a couple of hours, that is my choice) though for RCW 9.41.098(e) to apply it must be in a place where a concealed weapon is required and is under the influence of drugs or alcohol as described in RCW 46.61.
If one is sitting in a restaurant open carrying or at home, a friends or any where else it is not a requirement to have a cpl or committing a crime to be in legal possession then the RCW does not apply.



Note the qualifiers here, a, b, c and it was brought to my attention before that you can be arrested for a DUI when you have a Blood Alcohol under .08 do to the wording in (b) and (c) as under the influence.

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Dave you have nailed it several times, it is as clear as it can be. If they do not understand now they never will. I blame the public schools.

A person ought to have ZERO drinks when carrying. Should there be a law stating that?...NO! If someone wants to put their life in jeopardy by drinking and carrying, go for it. What I mean by that is, say you are at the bar, and you have a drink...or two, then head home--outside the bar you run into trouble, and defend yourself...i sn't that dandy, the officers respond, then you blow a .08+-...like I stated, it's your life, and you may be dragged through the courts because of it, even after a legitimate shoot.

Jay Jacobs said:

I wonder how many/often LEO's disarm themselves before consuming alcohol?

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Good question. Clinically treated alcohol addiction rates are usually calculated to be about twice as high for police officers than for the general population in the United States. Typically, treatment is only sought to avoid consequences. The vast majority of police with alcoholism continue in their jobs, protected by the "thin blue line".

Beretta92FSLady said:

A person ought to have ZERO drinks when carrying. Should there be a law stating that?...NO! If someone wants to put their life in jeopardy by drinking and carrying, go for it. What I mean by that is, say you are at the bar, and you have a drink...or two, then head home--outside the bar you run into trouble, and defend yourself...i sn't that dandy, the officers respond, then you blow a .08+-...like I stated, it's your life, and you may be dragged
through the courts because of it, even after a legitimate shoot.

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Two drinks, .08+?

My buddy used to have a breathalyzer in this car from a DUI, and we would use it to check our BACs for fun, and I wouldn't hit .08 until about an hour after my 4-5th beer, depending on what I'm drinking.

Although, I see where everyone is coming from, and don't disagree entirely. Its hard to know if people are just saying these things because they are on a public forum. On PNWriders (motorcycle forum) there was a thread about drinking and riding, and a lot of people said "never, zero, etc". Then, we would go on group rides, and at the end, grab a beer at a bar at the end.

I would love to say I never drink and carry, but I do. However, as I originally said, after two, is when she hits the glovebox.

Slightly different topic: Is anyone's limit different if CC vs OC? I can see why people OCing wouldn't want to publicly be seen drinking and having a firearm on them. Thoughts?

I tend to try and stay within the confines of the law. Legally speaking, that's about 4-6 servings* of alcohol within an hour, which is about 2-3 of the beers I normally enjoy**. You can test it using any calculator you want (235 pound male), or just grab a beer with me some time***.

If I'm at home or have walked/biked to another friend's home, the total drinks may double or triple, but the time tends to increase in an even greater amount (e.g. 8-18 servings over the course of 4 or 5 hours).

* 1 serving = .6 oz of pure ethanol = 1.5 oz of 40% abv (standard shot) = 12 oz of 5% abv (standard beer (weak beer)) = 4 oz of 15% abv (standard wine)
** Typical serving size in an American establishment is approximately 14 oz (the 16oz shaker is almost never full). That's 16.7% larger than 12oz, and the beers I enjoy are often stronger than 5%. For a 14oz beer at 7% (st, that's 1.63 servings of alcohol. Two of those is 3.26 servings, three is 4.89 servings. Even if a full 16 oz is poured, 3 beers at 7% each is 5.6 servings. Or I can have two of these at a total of 5.65 servings.
*** BAC after 1 hour is estimated at .052 for 4 servings, .070 for 5 servings, and .087 for 6 servings. At 6 servings, 1.5 hours reduces BAC to .078.

gogodawgs said:

To know your body and your limits you can start with a BAC calculator. http://bloodalcoholcalculator.org/

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Did you note how this "calculator" suggests you not drive when BAC is over .02 as you're "possibly impaired". May not flunk the breath test but could still give an officer PC to cite based on Field Sobriety Tests. A lot more detailed now than the old "walk straight line, hold one leg up while trying to not fall on your ass, etc.

The eye test (Horizontal Gaze Nystagmus Test) will trip people up a lot sooner, especially if they are "experienced drinkers".

protias said:

So if I relax and enjoy a delicious beverage, I lose my right to self defense?

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Maybe another way to look at it is that you opted for a state of impaired judgement, forfeiting your right to self defense.

Fuller Malarkey said:

Maybe another way to look at it is that you opted for a state of impaired judgement, forfeiting your right to self defense.

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So drinking automagically means impaired?

NavyLCDR said:

So, Mr. Waterfowl Woody, you will be able to cite cases where alcohol has been raised as a factor when determining self defense? I'll wait.

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There can be a long, expensive, period of inconvenience between an officer smelling alcohol on your breath, making a report, and when the Prosecutor decides whether your actions were justifiable.

Some Prosecutors just take their sweet time as long as the party hasn't been arrested------yet.

I don't think anyone is concerned so much about it NOT being against the law, just the problems associated with the presence of alcohol in one's system when they're should be at the top of their game. It's how people behave, or not, that will dictate whether we have another law or two added to the books, this time governing whether those carrying firearms can have a drink or two.

I guess it just matters whether you consider it common sense or not.

BTW, I haven't read a transcript of the Fourtier case in Snohomish County but I'll wager that it was a consideration given by the Prosecutor in filing the charges. According to the Defendant it cost him and his family $257,000, give or take the price of a Whopper, to defend against the Criminal and Civil Charges. Guy took a handgun to a drunken party. Don't know how much booze in his system but something tells me he wasn't drinking Iced Tea.

http://www.heraldnet.com/article/20081028/NEWS01/710289856

As I said before I can appreciate the zero drink crowd.
Just as a curiosity does this extend to your own home? One person said they's rather be a victim then face a possible jail sentence... What about at the house?

theaero said:

[snippers]depending on what I'm drinking. [snipper]

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Right there, my friend. 4-5 shots of Crown?--maybe would be a different story for when She goes in the glove-box?

NavyLCDR said:

[snippers]



When did we start discussing carrying a gun into a bar, which is illegal in Washington state? The rest of us are talking about legal carry in this thread.

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Sorry about that, forgot that we aren't permitted to carry into bars. Scratch what I posted relating to a Bar, and place: The Keg.

twoskinsonemanns said:

As I said before I can appreciate the zero drink crowd.
Just as a curiosity does this extend to your own home? One person said they's rather be a victim then face a possible jail sentence... What about at the house?

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Are you referring to me, as stating that I would rather be a victim? I should mention that I don't consume alcohol, for health reasons. If you were referring to me, I stated that a person should have "ZERO" drinks, when carrying. With regard to being home, just as with drinking at a restaurant, drink as much as your heart desires; just know that you are contributing to a case against you if you were forced to defend yourself after you had 1-2 drinks, or happen to have 1 too many.

protias said:

So drinking automagically means impaired?

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Alcohol is a depressant drug and therefore slows down reaction time and affects judgement with just one drink. Controlled studies prove this ad nauseam.

One to two drinks of alcohol impair mental and physical abilities; mental processes such as restraint, awareness, concentration and judgment are affected, reaction time slowed, and an inability to perform complicated tasks.
{“The Effects of Alcohol and Other Drugs,” Motorcycle Safety Foundation, Irvine, CA, 1991}

Any blood alcohol level, even a BAC of 0.02%, the result of just one drink, increases the risk of a crash. Alcohol impairs nearly every aspect of the brain’s ability to process information, as well as the eye’s ability to focus and react to light.
{University of California, Berkeley, Wellness Letter, Jan. 1998}

Impairment in performance begins at below 0.02% BAC (1 to 1-1/2 drinks can result in this level).
{NIAAA - Alcohol Problems and Aging: 1998 U.S. Dept. of Health and Human Services

The blocking of inhibitions is caused by alcohol's action on the higher centers of the brain's cortex, particularly the part of the brain that controls reason and judgment. It then acts on the lower centers of the limbic system that rule mood and emotion, and even at low-to-medium doses can increase self-confidence, sociability, and sexual desire, but can also result in aggression, violence and sexual assault. This disinhibition is mostly due to the interference with GABA, an inhibitory neurotransmitter.
{Alcoholmd.com - October 2001}

Even a small amount of alcohol can affect your balance and reflexes.
{National Institute on Aging - 2003}

Even one beer (or one drink) can slow your reactions and confuse your thinking. This means anything that requires concentration and coordination - like driving - is more dangerous when you’ve had a drink. Drinking is a problem if it interferes with how you think or feel.
{familydoctor.org - May 2003}

The most common response denying alcohol's affect on mood and judgement is "I'm unique".

amlevin said:

Did you note how this "calculator" suggests you not drive when BAC is over .02 as you're "possibly impaired". May not flunk the breath test but could still give an officer PC to cite based on Field Sobriety Tests. A lot more detailed now than the old "walk straight line, hold one leg up while trying to not fall on your ass, etc.

The eye test (Horizontal Gaze Nystagmus Test) will trip people up a lot sooner, especially if they are "experienced drinkers".

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If an officer is trying to give you field sobriety tests, and you aren't driving (you're walking or bicycling), you should refuse. There's no implied consent, and unless you are "incapacitated or gravely disabled" (or tried to hurt someone, but in that case you'd be likely arrested for assault), you may not be forcibly taken into protective custody.

If you're driving a car and they are trying to give you field sobriety tests, you should also refuse those tests, and (depending if you think you're even close or not), that you would accept a field breathalyzer followed by a full breathalyzer should the field one show that you may be under the influence.

Nothing in implied consent requires you to do the various gymnastics tests. Doing them can only be used against you, they are not exculpatory.

IANAL, but screw "field sobriety tests".

Tawnos said:

If you're driving a car and they are trying to give you field sobriety tests, you should also refuse those tests, and (depending if you think you're even close or not), that you would accept a field breathalyzer followed by a full breathalyzer should the field one show that you may be under the influence.

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Personally, I would not consent to a preliminary breath test (PBT) / field breathalyzer. I will not do so even in the scenario that I know it is 0.00. They can drag me down to the department and have me use the real breathalyzer. Not giving consent to a PBT is not a violation of Implied Consent RCW 46.20.308. Infact, all it can do is help give the officer PC for arrest in an alcohol related violation. Further is does not constitute compliance of the Implied Consent, you will still have to provide a breath sample or blood test at the station.

WAC 448-15-020

WAC 448-15-020 said:

The devices described in WAC 448-15-010 are approved for use in establishing probable cause that a subject has consumed alcohol. For purposes of this section, valid results are considered those obtained from following the approved protocol, by a trained operator using an approved device which has been certified according to the rules described in WAC 448-15-030. Valid results will show to a reasonable degree of scientific certainty, the test subject's breath alcohol concentration. Valid results are suitable to assist in establishing probable cause to place a person under arrest for alcohol related offenses. These results may not be used on their own for determining, beyond a reasonable doubt, that a person's breath alcohol concentration exceeds a proscribed level such as anticipated under the 'per se' statutes for intoxication.

This preliminary breath test is voluntary, and participation in it does not constitute compliance with the implied consent statute (RCW 46.20.308).

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This is a very interesting and informative thread. For instance, I didn't know that one couldn't carry in a bar up there. I'll keep that in mind when I visit the state.
Also, your laws make more sense than ours does in regards to drinking and carrying a firearm. For instance, when driving here DUI is .08 (naturally). However, when carrying, drinking and NOT driving, you can have a BAC of .10! If I understand what I read correctly, if you're home and only use the gun in self defense, you can be as hammered as you wish.
Back to the carrying in bars thing: In my area it's not unheard of to walk into one of our local watering holes and maybe see someone enjoying a frosty one while OC. Of course I'm in the desert in a very small community.
Do I drink and carry? Gun or not, I will not drink more than 1 beer a day, IF I drink at all. Even then it usually takes over an hour to drink that one beer. Therefore, I really don't ever have to worry about intoxication or any legality that comes from it.

Beretta92FSLady said:

Right there, my friend. 4-5 shots of Crown?--maybe would be a different story for when She goes in the glove-box?

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Yes it would

I typically drink lite beers over a long period of time though. If I start shooting whiskey, gun goes byebye until the next morning when I regret shooting whiskey. :banana: