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Thread: Can a public library post No Weapon signs?

  1. #1
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    Can a public library post No Weapon signs?

    A local public library enacted a policy in 2004 to ban all weapons on their premises, whether concealed or not. They have a sign posted at their entrance that states this policy.

    Since this is a govt-funded public library, are they allowed to post such signs? I thought that ORC 9.68 overrides local ordinances against open/concealed carry. Here's an example from Indiana where a public library had to change their policy after their state enacted something similar.

    Here's the local library's actual policy page:

    The Cuyahoga Falls Library does not permit weapons of any kind, either concealed or in plain view, on its property or in its building, unless the owner of the weapon is a law enforcement officer.
    Last edited by brian0918; 08-14-2012 at 09:15 AM.

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    Founder's Club Member Grapeshot's Avatar
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    R.C. 9.68 - it's the law

    State preemption states that local municipalities may not pass such laws. The library is wrong, the sign is not legal.
    http://codes.ohio.gov/orc/gp9.68

    The Ohio Supreme Court agrees and has reaffirmed -
    http://www.volokh.com/2010/12/29/ohi...ocal-gun-laws/
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    A taxpayer funded library is not a government building? I don't see any difference between a public library or any of the buildings where Metropark employees work or any of the buildings where employees of my local municipality work.

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    I think the "government building" has to be a building where government business is conducted not just a building owned by the government. At least that's how I read it, I could be wrong though.
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    Pretty sure a public library is Municipal property (being funded with tax dollars & donations) so State preemption laws would apply.
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    Well, as far as the state retirement system is concerned, public library employees are "public employees".

    145.01 Public employees retirement system definitions.

    As used in this chapter:

    (A) “Public employee” means:

    (1) Any person holding an office, not elective, under the state or any county, township, municipal corporation, park district, conservancy district, sanitary district, health district, metropolitan housing authority, state retirement board, Ohio historical society, public library, county law library, union cemetery, joint hospital, institutional commissary, state university, or board, bureau, commission, council, committee, authority, or administrative body as the same are, or have been, created by action of the general assembly or by the legislative authority of any of the units of local government named in division (A)(1) of this section, or employed and paid in whole or in part by the state or any of the authorities named in division (A)(1) of this section in any capacity not covered by section 742.01, 3307.01, 3309.01, or 5505.01 of the Revised Code.
    The concealed carry law says a licensee cannot carry in a "government facility":

    (B) A valid license issued under section 2923.125 or 2923.1213 of the Revised Code does not authorize the licensee to carry a concealed handgun in any manner prohibited under division (B) of section 2923.12 of the Revised Code or in any manner prohibited under section 2923.16 of the Revised Code. A valid license does not authorize the licensee to carry a concealed handgun into any of the following places:

    (9) Any building that is a government facility of this state or a political subdivision of this state and that is not a building that is used primarily as a shelter, restroom, parking facility for motor vehicles, or rest facility and is not a courthouse or other building or structure in which a courtroom is located that is subject to division (B)(3) of this section;
    http://codes.ohio.gov/orc/2923.126

    Later on in the same section it defines "government facility" as:

    (3) “Government facility of this state or a political subdivision of this state” means any of the following:

    (a) A building or part of a building that is owned or leased by the government of this state or a political subdivision of this state and where employees of the government of this state or the political subdivision regularly are present for the purpose of performing their official duties as employees of the state or political subdivision;

    (b) The office of a deputy registrar serving pursuant to Chapter 4503. of the Revised Code that is used to perform deputy registrar functions.

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    Open Carry

    So we are back to that age old question...

    Can you Open Carry in a "Government Facility"...?

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    Quote Originally Posted by Lthrnck View Post
    So we are back to that age old question...

    Can you Open Carry in a "Government Facility"...?
    Yep...unless the building contains a jail, court room, or (maybe) police station. Of course nobody with lots of disposable time and money has come forward to be the test case. Personally I'd like to see 100 or more of us, led by the bosses of BFA and OFCC, do this very thing en masse.

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    Founder's Club Member Grapeshot's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Brian D. View Post
    Yep...unless the building contains a jail, court room, or (maybe) police station. Of course nobody with lots of disposable time and money has come forward to be the test case. Personally I'd like to see 100 or more of us, led by the bosses of BFA and OFCC, do this very thing en masse.
    You mean like this?

    http://www2.timesdispatch.com/news/n...ri-ar-2131548/

    http://forum.opencarry.org/forums/sh...20#post1808620

    This happens today - will let you know how our little foray goes.
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    That's Virginia, what does that have to do with Ohio? That's like saying what happens in NY has anything to do with VT.
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    Quote Originally Posted by RT48 View Post
    Well, as far as the state retirement system is concerned, public library employees are "public employees".



    The concealed carry law says a licensee cannot carry in a "government facility":



    http://codes.ohio.gov/orc/2923.126

    Later on in the same section it defines "government facility" as:
    With that definition posted above of "government facility" i still don't see a city library falling under that definition. It's a public building and not a government facility since no governmental duties are performed there. And it says employees of the government not "public employees". So the vagary is still there but so far I still don't see it has being a government facility.
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    Founder's Club Member Grapeshot's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by ZeroC View Post
    That's Virginia, what does that have to do with Ohio? That's like saying what happens in NY has anything to do with VT.
    We are not restricted on OCDO to only sharing our thoughts and experiences within our state of residence. We share, get ideas and adapt to circumstances - that is the strength of this forum.

    Are you not concerned with what is happening in California? We are succeeding with the expansion of our RKBA because we do not take an isolationist stance.
    Old and treacherous will beat young and skilled every time.

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    I do care what happens in other states but in regards to this specific topic we're trying to determine if it's legal to carry in a library in Ohio. Since VA law doesn't apply to Ohio it doesn't help the topic that's all. Just like how VT has constitutional carry but trying to compare it to NY is pointless because you need a permit just to sneeze there.

    So does anyone have anything clear cut over the vagaries in Ohio's laws?
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    Quote Originally Posted by ZeroC View Post
    I do care what happens in other states but in regards to this specific topic we're trying to determine if it's legal to carry in a library in Ohio. Since VA law doesn't apply to Ohio it doesn't help the topic that's all. Just like how VT has constitutional carry but trying to compare it to NY is pointless because you need a permit just to sneeze there.

    So does anyone have anything clear cut over the vagaries in Ohio's laws?
    Unless you can get confirmation from the state government whether a public library is a government facility, then no.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Grapeshot View Post
    You mean like this?

    http://www2.timesdispatch.com/news/n...ri-ar-2131548/

    http://forum.opencarry.org/forums/sh...20#post1808620

    This happens today - will let you know how our little foray goes.
    Yes, yes, Grapester--is it okay if I call you Grapester after all these years? --I read yesterday what you were going to be up to and hope all went well. In fact I'll head to the Virginny section next to get meself updated.

    It's somewhat ironic that I am at this moment in a northern Kentucky public library typing this response. For what it's worth the place is posted with 'No guns' signage referencing a local ordinance which does not seem to exist at all! But, that's a battle for another day, perhaps led by some northern Ky. gunrights advocates found elsewhere on this forum. Same town has recently posted their largest city park with again, codified ordinace numbers that cannot be found in either electronic or hard copy law books.

    Guess my bigger point is that I consider all us pro-2a folks to be on the same team, and don't mind some cross-posting between the states' subforums. Sometimes we learn from the struggles of others who have fit some of the same fights don't we?

  16. #16
    Founder's Club Member Grapeshot's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Brian D. View Post
    Yes, yes, Grapester--is it okay if I call you Grapester after all these years? --I read yesterday what you were going to be up to and hope all went well. In fact I'll head to the Virginny section next to get meself updated.

    It's somewhat ironic that I am at this moment in a northern Kentucky public library typing this response. For what it's worth the place is posted with 'No guns' signage referencing a local ordinance which does not seem to exist at all! But, that's a battle for another day, perhaps led by some northern Ky. gunrights advocates found elsewhere on this forum. Same town has recently posted their largest city park with again, codified ordinace numbers that cannot be found in either electronic or hard copy law books.

    Guess my bigger point is that I consider all us pro-2a folks to be on the same team, and don't mind some cross-posting between the states' subforums. Sometimes we learn from the struggles of others who have fit some of the same fights don't we?
    Hope to learn something new every day.

    I was responding to the following and suggesting that yes it can work.
    Originally Posted by Brian D.
    Yep...unless the building contains a jail, court room, or (maybe) police station. Of course nobody with lots of disposable time and money has come forward to be the test case. Personally I'd like to see 100 or more of us, led by the bosses of BFA and OFCC, do this very thing en masse.
    Today we had 27-30 people, 3 TV stations + the local newspaper giving us coverage - no police presence, no problems. Next stop city council.

    What works in Virginia often will work in Ohio and vice versa.
    Old and treacherous will beat young and skilled every time.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Grapeshot View Post
    ...What works in Virginia often will work in Ohio and vice versa.
    Yeah, well, if there were not a conflict between the signage wording for government buildings as spelled out in the ORC (no guns) and the statutory prohibition (prohibiting CC, but not mentioning OC in govt buildings), that might be the case.

    But, unless someone has deep pockets and a burning desire to be a test case (or the cause of a change to current law), I think the analogy fails in this case.

    ORC = Ohio Revised Code

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    Regular Member Makarov's Avatar
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    What about county libraries?

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    Can a public library post No Weapon signs?

    I live just south of Cuyahoga falls down in canton. I'd be more then willing to come up and open carry as a group if we get something going.

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    9.40 Payroll deduction for United States savings bonds.

    Any public employee of the state, or any political subdivision thereof, who desires to purchase United States savings bonds by the payroll deduction plan shall be granted such payroll deduction upon request to the head of the state or political subdivision department by whom he is employed.

    As used in this section, “public employee” means any person holding an office, not elective, under the state, any county, municipal corporation, park district, conservancy district, sanitary district, health district, township, or public library, or employed and paid in whole or in part by the state or any of such named authorities in any capacity.

    Effective Date: 10-01-1953
    I could go on and on.

    Public libraries are a creature of the state.

  21. #21
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    Quote Originally Posted by color of law View Post
    I could go on and on.

    Public libraries are a creature of the state.
    Would certainly seem so.

    Note title to link:
    http://www.publiclibraries.com/ohio.htm
    Old and treacherous will beat young and skilled every time.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Garystarcher View Post
    I live just south of Cuyahoga falls down in canton. I'd be more then willing to come up and open carry as a group if we get something going.
    Gary - I like the sound of that. Any others in the NE Ohio area interested in a library meetup?
    Last edited by brian0918; 08-19-2012 at 09:29 PM.

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    Quote Originally Posted by brian0918 View Post
    Gary - I like the sound of that. Any others in the NE Ohio area interested in a library meetup?
    I'd be down.

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    Can a public library post No Weapon signs?

    I know if the day is right my brother would probably join in.

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    Founder's Club Member Grapeshot's Avatar
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    I know different state, different laws - nevertheless this is how it can go down when you are right and pull together.

    Please note the polite and courteous attitudes displayed and responsible carry tactics - just normal every day business.

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=T-UL1...ature=youtu.be
    Old and treacherous will beat young and skilled every time.

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