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Thread: Weather Service scarfing up ammo - .40 cal?

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    Regular Member stickslinger's Avatar
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    Weather Service scarfing up ammo - .40 cal?

    What would the weather service (NOAA) need with so much ammo? On another note, why would DHS need with over 450 million rounds of .40 cal ammo?

    http://www.infowars.com/national-wea...ammo-purchase/
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    Anti-Saldana Freedom Fighter Venator's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by stickslinger View Post
    What would the weather service (NOAA) need with so much ammo? On another note, why would DHS need with over 450 million rounds of .40 cal ammo?

    http://www.infowars.com/national-wea...ammo-purchase/
    Well NOAA is a uniformed military service. Officers only. Interesting history. Commissioned so they wont be shot as spies when doing surveys around the world.


    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nationa...issioned_Corps
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    Regular Member DrakeZ07's Avatar
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    UPDATE: The Washington Post now reports, via a statement from NOAA spokesman Scott Smullen, that the original solicitation contained a “clerical error” and that the “solicitation for ammunition and targets for the NOAA Fisheries Office of Law Enforcement mistakenly identified NOAA’s National Weather Service as the requesting office.” This still doesn’t explain why hollow point bullets, designed to cause maximum organ damage, are needed for shooting at paper targets. Was the delivery of the bullets to the NWS a cover for them being transferred somewhere else? It’s entirely possible given the sordid history of Fast and Furious, a federal government program under which guns were sent directly to Mexican drug cartels.
    ^ From the bottom of that report ^

    As someone who has worked with the NWS for a couple years now, and have made several good friends with various NWS offices, I have to call BS on this report.

    The only consideration for why NOAA would need ammunition, is because NOAA employs certain military personal, pilot and technicians, to fly military and governmental scientific aircraft, for the purpose of atmospheric weather conditions research, monitoring of hurricanes, and even the studying of foreign weather systems through such aircraft. The ammo, if it wasn't a clerical mistake, is probably meant for the military personal employed by NOAA.
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    Regular Member Jack House's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Venator View Post
    Well NOAA is a uniformed military service. Officers only. Interesting history. Commissioned so they wont be shot as spies when doing surveys around the world.


    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nationa...issioned_Corps
    A few years ago when I first discovered that it shocked me. But yeah, it's pretty cool history.

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    Campaign Veteran skidmark's Avatar
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    All the hysteria over 450 MILLION rounds being purchased by DHS is just that - hysteria.

    You need to do a bit of basic math. How many people under the umbrella of DHS are authorized to carry a handgun? (We are presuming all 450M rounds are for handguns, aren't we?) How often to each of those individuals qualify with their handgun? How many rounds are fired during each qualification episode?

    After you crunch those numbers, please calculate how many rounds are left over for practice. How many times a year are each of the DHS employees required to practice? How many rounds are fired during each practice episode?

    Now, between mandatory qualification and manditory practice, how many rounds are left over for shooting BGs, innocent bystanders, those who happen to be in the wrong house when a no-knock warrant is served, and the dogs and cats that happen to be at any place a warrant is served?

    Of course, instead of either doing all the research necessary to answer those questions, or moan and groan about how difficult it would be, anyone really interested could Google up research already conducted and answers already arrived at.

    I am purposely NOT going to post any links because IMHO the only way to defuse hysteria is to make the hystericval person confront the issue and decide if rational consideration will still support those feelings of doom, gloom, and the-sky-is-falling.

    stay safe.
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    Regular Member OC for ME's Avatar
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    650 rounds have been/will be procured between 2009 and 2017. http://www.theblaze.com/stories/why-...point-bullets/

    Not the first time and likely will not be the last time.
    "I would rather be exposed to the inconveniences attending too much liberty than to those attending too small a degree of it." - Thomas Jefferson.

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    Quote Originally Posted by skidmark View Post
    All the hysteria over 450 MILLION rounds being purchased by DHS is just that - hysteria.

    You need to do a bit of basic math. How many people under the umbrella of DHS are authorized to carry a handgun? (We are presuming all 450M rounds are for handguns, aren't we?) How often to each of those individuals qualify with their handgun? How many rounds are fired during each qualification episode?

    .....blah blah blah.....

    I am purposely NOT going to post any links because IMHO the only way to defuse hysteria is to make the hysterical person confront the issue and decide if rational consideration will still support those feelings of doom, gloom, and the-sky-is-falling.

    stay safe.
    Hysteria? maybe maybe not.

    Who quals/practices with JHP? How many rifles use JHP? It is 450 million rounds of .40 S&W so I guess we know what type of firearm is being fed.

    Retail from Cabelas.

    50 rds., .40 Smith & Wesson, 180 Grain, JHP: $25
    50 rds., .40 Smith & Wesson, 180 Grain, FMJ: $20

    Now, DHS may have their employees qual/practice with JHP, then again maybe not. I certainly would not be able to justify the cost of "training" by using JHP vs. FMJ.

    Just sayin.
    stay safe.
    "I would rather be exposed to the inconveniences attending too much liberty than to those attending too small a degree of it." - Thomas Jefferson.

    "Better that ten guilty persons escape, than that one innocent suffer" - English jurist William Blackstone.
    It is AFAIK original to me. Compromise is failure on the installment plan, particularly when dealing with so intractable an opponent as ignorance. - Nightmare

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    Regular Member OC for ME's Avatar
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    Oh, the 2009, 200 million round contract was for .40 S&W over five years too.....look it up.
    "I would rather be exposed to the inconveniences attending too much liberty than to those attending too small a degree of it." - Thomas Jefferson.

    "Better that ten guilty persons escape, than that one innocent suffer" - English jurist William Blackstone.
    It is AFAIK original to me. Compromise is failure on the installment plan, particularly when dealing with so intractable an opponent as ignorance. - Nightmare

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    Regular Member Jack House's Avatar
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    I think even one bullet provided to an agency with the sole purpose of trampling our rights and turning everyone into suspected terrorists is too many.

    Maybe I'm just being hysterical.

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    Regular Member Freedom1Man's Avatar
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    Question

    A friend of mine used to shoot in the IHMSA and the average competitor would go through about 1000 rounds a year during practice plus the rounds fired during matches. So we could say 1500 rounds a year per person total.

    Now these guys were able to make 2-3" groups at 200 yards with a revolver and about 2" group with a single shot pistol.

    Now 450 million divided by 1500 equals 300,000 now if this is over 5 years we need to divide by 5 again to see how many agents this is supposed to supply. That number is 60,000. Or more than 1,000 per state of armed agents.

    I am sure other conclusions can be reached. I wanted to present the numbers as ONE possible outcome.

    I am sure it's very incorrect but, it's something to think about.
    Last edited by Freedom1Man; 08-15-2012 at 09:46 AM.
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    The conclusion is that there are not 1000 agents per state.

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    Since the climate doomsayers are having problems getting the masses to buy their $ motivated global warming alarmism, even after cooking the data to make their prognostications look more persuasive, they are now looking at other ways to get to get us to stop exhaling that planet damaging CO2.

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    Regular Member Gil223's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by OC for ME View Post
    650 rounds have been/will be procured between 2009 and 2017. http://www.theblaze.com/stories/why-...point-bullets/

    Not the first time and likely will not be the last time.
    Is a one-armed man making these 650 rounds by hand? That works out to one round every 4.5 days over an 8 year period. Pax...
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    .....ooops!
    "I would rather be exposed to the inconveniences attending too much liberty than to those attending too small a degree of it." - Thomas Jefferson.

    "Better that ten guilty persons escape, than that one innocent suffer" - English jurist William Blackstone.
    It is AFAIK original to me. Compromise is failure on the installment plan, particularly when dealing with so intractable an opponent as ignorance. - Nightmare

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    Weather Service scarfing up ammo - .40 cal?

    I am a casual competitive shooter, and I practice frequently on Friday nights. At 100-150 rounds every week or two, either in one practice session or IDPA competition, I shot over 3000 rounds last year. Plus a couple of courses (900 rounds in one 4 day class, 600 in two days at another.)

    It goes fast. I know officers who shoot a lot and some that shoot none. A current Border Patrol officer I know shoots a lot and he isn't a "gun guy". Twenty years ago, a guy I knew from high school was working for BP and wore out his S&W 5903 (aluminum frame) on the range.

    And I imagine that Federal gave them a good deal by only having to produce, stock, and ship one kind of ammo. Don't mistake cost for retail. There is no reason to stock both training and duty ammo when you buy this kind of volume with other people's money.

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    Regular Member Phoenix David's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by stickslinger View Post
    What would the weather service (NOAA) need with so much ammo? On another note, why would DHS need with over 450 million rounds of .40 cal ammo?

    http://www.infowars.com/national-wea...ammo-purchase/
    So you don't believe in global warming/climate change. .40 to the back of the head for you.
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    Yes, DHS qualifies with JHP ammo.

    There is a very simple reason; case law has decided officers must train with the ammunition they carry on duty. All Federal agencies do so and many state and local agencies as well. Doing otherwise is courting a lost wrongful death suit stemming from an otherwise proper shooting incident.

    The story about DHS ordering vast quantities of ammunition stirs up about every five or six years, that's when the contracts come up for renewal. (It varies, depending on the last contract.) This story has been explained at least twice by me in various venues and by several others. It is just not a big deal.

    Getting all hysterical about is perhaps high drama, but not very useful.
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    Regular Member Gil223's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by nonameisgood View Post
    And I imagine that Federal gave them a good deal by only having to produce, stock, and ship one kind of ammo. Don't mistake cost for retail. There is no reason to stock both training and duty ammo when you buy this kind of volume with other people's money.
    Yes, never mistake cost for retail when you're talking about government purchasing agents. They are notorious for paying much more than retail! After all, they don't see it as their pocket money they're spending. Pax...
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    Quote Originally Posted by OldManMontgomery View Post
    There is a very simple reason; case law has decided officers must train with the ammunition they carry on duty. All Federal agencies do so and many state and local agencies as well. Doing otherwise is courting a lost wrongful death suit stemming from an otherwise proper shooting incident.

    The story about DHS ordering vast quantities of ammunition stirs up about every five or six years, that's when the contracts come up for renewal. (It varies, depending on the last contract.) This story has been explained at least twice by me in various venues and by several others. It is just not a big deal.

    Getting all hysterical about is perhaps high drama, but not very useful.
    Cite on the case law and where the requirement for "train with what you use."

    When it comes to rifle and shotgun rounds I agree. Especially for shot guns.
    "I would rather be exposed to the inconveniences attending too much liberty than to those attending too small a degree of it." - Thomas Jefferson.

    "Better that ten guilty persons escape, than that one innocent suffer" - English jurist William Blackstone.
    It is AFAIK original to me. Compromise is failure on the installment plan, particularly when dealing with so intractable an opponent as ignorance. - Nightmare

  20. #20
    Regular Member mobiushky's Avatar
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    I don't know if it's case law, but at least some of the agencies have stated that their own policy is you train with what you carry. And quite frankly, that's just smart. Even trainers recommend you train with what you carry. Even Hickok45 says it.

    Plus it's usually a better deal to buy one thing in bulk than 2 different things in partials.

    Now there is an estimate that there are roughly 100,000* LEO's under DHS jurisdiction. Since DHS covers a pretty wide swath of agencies, that's not entirely fantastical to believe. There are also agencies that are commenting that they require each agent to have 200 rounds in their kit bag and practice and qualification uses 5-600 rounds a year. The 450 million round contract was an "up to" over 5 years. Math time!

    100,000 * (200+600) = 80,000,000

    80,000,000 * 5 = 400 million.

    So that's not exactly outside the realm of reality for them to sign a 5 year contract with a company to provide up to 450 million rounds for somewhere around 100,000 LEO's.

    I'm not trying to say there is no conspiracy. Just commenting on the numbers and that they aren't too far out of line. If this was a 3 month contract to provide all 450 million by say November.... That might be a little more bothersome.

    *Wikipedia lists the total staff of DHS at 240,000 total.
    Last edited by mobiushky; 08-17-2012 at 04:29 PM.

  21. #21
    Regular Member stickslinger's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Phoenix David View Post
    So you don't believe in global warming/climate change. .40 to the back of the head for you.
    Sure glad I make enough for myself then
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