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Thread: After how many drinks is carrying a no-no?

  1. #1
    Regular Member tomrkba's Avatar
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    After how many drinks is carrying a no-no?

    This started in the Washington State forum thread "After how many drinks is carrying a no-no?". I want to talk about it in the Virginia forum.

    Americans treat alcohol in a very odd way. Culturally, we're morons when it comes to alcohol. We behave poorly when we consume it. This is the reason why so many people have had "No drinking and shooting" drilled into their heads. This is not the case in Europe. There are gun ranges with bars. You'll see people drinking beer and then go shooting. I don't drink and carry in public places. If I ever do drink while carrying, I limit it to exactly one drink and do not leave private property until at least one hour after I finish the drink.

    That said, Virginia law is very specific. It is a misdemeanor to be intoxicated in public (18.2-388). A person with a permit to carry a concealed handgun is subject to this:

    J1. Any person permitted to carry a concealed handgun, who is under the influence of alcohol or illegal drugs while carrying such handgun in a public place, shall be guilty of a Class 1 misdemeanor. Conviction of any of the following offenses shall be prima facie evidence, subject to rebuttal, that the person is "under the influence" for purposes of this section: manslaughter in violation of § 18.2-36.1, maiming in violation of § 18.2-51.4, driving while intoxicated in violation of § 18.2-266, public intoxication in violation of § 18.2-388, or driving while intoxicated in violation of § 46.2-341.24. Upon such conviction that court shall revoke the person's permit for a concealed handgun and promptly notify the issuing circuit court. A person convicted of a violation of this subsection shall be ineligible to apply for a concealed handgun permit for a period of five years.
    Note the conditions:

    You must:
    1) Have a permit to carry a concealed handgun.
    2) Be in a public place.
    3) Be intoxicated. I am not sure what the definition of "under the influence" is.

    The good news is that you can carry concealed in restaurants and bars if you do not drink.

    My questions are:

    1) What is the legal definition of "intoxicated" in Virginia?
    2) What is the legal definition of "under the influence" in Virginia?
    3) Since a permit to carry a concealed handgun changes how the law treats someone, how does this affect open carry? Is a person openly carrying a gun, who has no permit to carry a concealed handgun, merely subject to 18.2-388 (public intoxication)? Does a person with a concealed carry permit have a different definition of "intoxication" while open carrying? If so, what is that definition?


    Citations:

    http://leg1.state.va.us/cgi-bin/legp...0+cod+18.2-308. Section J1.

    http://leg1.state.va.us/cgi-bin/legp...0+cod+18.2-388
    Last edited by tomrkba; 08-15-2012 at 09:43 AM.

  2. #2
    Campaign Veteran skidmark's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by tomrkba View Post
    ....

    My questions are:

    1) What is the legal definition of "intoxicated" in Virginia?
    2) What is the legal definition of "under the influence" in Virginia?
    3) Since a permit to carry a concealed handgun changes how the law treats someone, how does this affect open carry? Is a person openly carrying a gun, who has no permit to carry a concealed handgun, merely subject to 18.2-388 (public intoxication)? Does a person with a concealed carry permit have a different definition of "intoxication" while open carrying? If so, what is that definition?
    My responses are:

    1) There is none in this setting and besides the Code refers to "under the influence" and not "intoxicated".
    2) There is none. A plain reading would suggest either some specifiable level of impairment OR any detectable amount. I'm not inclined to find out what the honorable justices think the answer is.
    3) a) Yes, since CC is not a factor at all. b) Yes, obviously, as the Code talks about "under the influence" for CC and we have agreed that OC is controlled by "public intoxication". c) See response #2. At best I'd take a SWAG that if you do not passs the standard roasdside DUI screening tests (even if you are not driving but walking when stopped for suspicion of being publically intoxicated) you will find the LEO deciding the shoe fits.

    stay safe.

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  3. #3
    Campaign Veteran skidmark's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by tomrkba View Post
    This started in the Washington State forum thread "After how many drinks is carrying a no-no?". I want to talk about it in the Virginia forum.

    Americans treat alcohol in a very odd way. Culturally, we're morons when it comes to alcohol. We behave poorly when we consume it. This is the reason why so many people have had "No drinking and shooting" drilled into their heads. This is not the case in Europe. There are gun ranges with bars. You'll see people drinking beer and then go shooting. I don't drink and carry in public places. If I ever do drink while carrying, I limit it to exactly one drink and do not leave private property until at least one hour after I finish the drink.
    I want to address this part of your post separately from the part regarding the legal questions.

    Whether we like it or not, public perception is a huge part of how gun owners decide how to behave. As you have noted, there are differing perceptions about drinking and drinking while armed.

    The common decision has been, for quite some time, not to push this envelope. Throwing the issue of carrying while drinking/drinking while carrying into the mix does a disservice to both those who are trying to un-deamonize alcohol and those trying to un-deamonize firearms. Yep, it's a public image issue moreso than it is either a legal or actual-dangerousness issue. But we have enough people trying to create an adverse public perception of firearm carriers without adding to those numbers the WCTU folks, who are as whackadoodle in their way as the antis are in their way.

    stay safe.
    "He'll regret it to his dying day....if ever he lives that long."----The Quiet Man

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  4. #4
    Regular Member Prophet's Avatar
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    I always go out armed. If i start drinking and feel like having a few more then I would be comfortable driving with, I unload and give the bullets to a friend. That way, if I need it, its there and in case im a sloppy idiot im not going to drop it while taking a piss and shoot myself in the ass.

    But even if i get that drunk, i can always use an unloaded pistol as a club so I would never disarm.

    This is in regards to states where these actions would be legal. In states where gunning while drinking is regulated I would follow the law.


    Edit: With that being said, I think i've only had to do this about 3 times. One should keep their wits about them when carrying a firearm and take precautions from finding themselves in a less than ideal situation.
    Last edited by Prophet; 08-15-2012 at 03:15 PM.

  5. #5
    Regular Member Fuller Malarkey's Avatar
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    So to the OP:

    Are you attempting to define responsible

    ....or legal?

    Or supportable?

    I'll submit exactly what I submitted in the other thread regarding the effects ONE drink may have on a human.

    Alcohol is a depressant drug and therefore slows down reaction time and affects judgement with just one drink. Controlled studies prove this ad nauseam.

    One to two drinks of alcohol impair mental and physical abilities; mental processes such as restraint, awareness, concentration and judgment are affected, reaction time slowed, and an inability to perform complicated tasks.
    {“The Effects of Alcohol and Other Drugs,” Motorcycle Safety Foundation, Irvine, CA, 1991}

    Any blood alcohol level, even a BAC of 0.02%, the result of just one drink, increases the risk of a crash. Alcohol impairs nearly every aspect of the brain’s ability to process information, as well as the eye’s ability to focus and react to light.
    {University of California, Berkeley, Wellness Letter, Jan. 1998}

    Impairment in performance begins at below 0.02% BAC (1 to 1-1/2 drinks can result in this level).
    {NIAAA - Alcohol Problems and Aging: 1998 U.S. Dept. of Health and Human Services

    The blocking of inhibitions is caused by alcohol's action on the higher centers of the brain's cortex, particularly the part of the brain that controls reason and judgment. It then acts on the lower centers of the limbic system that rule mood and emotion, and even at low-to-medium doses can increase self-confidence, sociability, and sexual desire, but can also result in aggression, violence and sexual assault. This disinhibition is mostly due to the interference with GABA, an inhibitory neurotransmitter.
    {Alcoholmd.com - October 2001}

    Even a small amount of alcohol can affect your balance and reflexes.
    {National Institute on Aging - 2003}

    Even one beer (or one drink) can slow your reactions and confuse your thinking. This means anything that requires concentration and coordination - like driving - is more dangerous when you’ve had a drink. Drinking is a problem if it interferes with how you think or feel.
    {familydoctor.org - May 2003}

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    Founder's Club Member - Moderator ed's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by tomrkba View Post
    2) What is the legal definition of "under the influence" in Virginia?
    Attorney Dan Hawes told me the moment a person consumes ANY alcohol, they are under the influence.
    Carry On.

    Ed

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    Regular Member sparkman2's Avatar
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    I personally would not combine the two. If I choose to drink I drink at home. When I go out to eat I am carrying but I will not consume alcohol. Just a personal preference that I have but others may feel differently about it.
    Last edited by sparkman2; 08-15-2012 at 04:55 PM.
    "Laws that forbid the carrying of arms...disarm only those who are neither inclined nor determined to commit crimes. Such laws make things worse for the assaulted and better for the assailants; they serve rather to encourage than prevent homicides, for an unarmed man may be attacked with greater confidence than an armed one." Thomas Jefferson (quoting Cesare Beccaria)

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    Regular Member WalkingWolf's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by sparkman2 View Post
    I personally would not combine the two. If I choose to drink I drink at home. When I go out to eat I am carrying but I will not consume alcohol. Just a personal preference that I have but others may feel differently about it.
    (in a foxworthy voice)If you so drunk you confuse your gun for your drink, you might of had too many drinks to be carrying.

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    Regular Member 45acpForMe's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Prophet View Post
    I always go out armed. If i start drinking and feel like having a few more then I would be comfortable driving with, I unload and give the bullets to a friend. <snip>
    Although I see you are in PA, in VA giving bullets to your friend doesn't mean squat if you retain the firearm, you are still "carrying". Most laws that I have read talk about a firearm as a device that is "capable" of shooting, not whether it is in functioning (loaded) condition. Think of it as when the two idiots in FL recently went into the internet cafe to rob the place but got repelled by an old geeser with a small pistol. They will still be convicted of armed robbery even though afterwards the robber admited the gun was unloaded and rusted to the point of not functioning.

    As far as drinking and carrying, I will fight for people to do what they may within the law. A secondary issue is whether it gives gun-owners a positive image or not.

    The problem in Virginia as I see it is that the current laws are vague enough for any LEO to abuse/mis-use them to my detriment. Until the laws are changed, if ever, I will confine my alcohol consumption while carrying to private property and not traverse "public" property afterwards.

    I drink about a 12 pack of beer a year though so I am not drinking very often. Another thing to consider is that you are carrying to be ready to defend yourself. Alcohol as well as other over the counter medicine can slow you reaction time so it is like bringing a revolver to a gunfight and only loading every other chamber. :-)

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    Regular Member ProShooter's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by ed View Post
    Attorney Dan Hawes told me the moment a person consumes ANY alcohol, they are under the influence.
    +1
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    Regular Member ProShooter's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Prophet View Post
    I unload and give the bullets to a friend. .

    Who do you give the casings, powder, and primers to?
    James Reynolds

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    Activist Member Wolf_shadow's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by ProShooter View Post
    Who do you give the casings, powder, and primers to?

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    Regular Member scouser's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Prophet View Post
    in case im a sloppy idiot im not going to drop it while taking a piss and shoot myself in the ass.
    what do you carry when you go out? I'm interested because I would like to make sure that my next purchase is something different. Nothing I possess at the moment will fire if dropped, I'd like to keep it that way.


    Quote Originally Posted by Prophet View Post
    But even if i get that drunk, i can always use an unloaded pistol as a club so I would never disarm.

    This is in regards to states where these actions would be legal. In states where gunning while drinking is regulated I would follow the law.
    in that case, what would you do in Virginia?

    Quote Originally Posted by Prophet View Post
    If i start drinking and feel like having a few more then I would be comfortable driving with, I unload and give the bullets to a friend
    Me, personally, I don't have a safe driving limit for alcohol, my job depends upon me not having any DUI or DWI, so just one drink and I won't get behind the wheel, it's just not worth it for me. I'm at that point in my life where my drinking is mostly done in my own home, although I can't truthfully deny ever doing anything stupid while under the influence of alcohol (asking my ex to marry me probably ranks up there as stupid act #1, thankfully she said no and I ended up with Logan's mom instead)

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    Regular Member ocholsteroc's Avatar
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    After how many drinks is carrying a no-no?

    1 is to much.
    Last edited by ocholsteroc; 08-15-2012 at 09:24 PM.
    How come a DUI you can get your driver licence back, which it is a privilege. But if commiting a felon, even something non violent like stealing, you are denied your constitutional rights for the rest of your life?
    If you don't support the Second Amendment to the Constitution, what other parts of the Constitution do you reject?
    More restrictions on guns? how about restrictions on chainsaws and knives?

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    Regular Member Tanner's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by ed View Post
    Attorney Dan Hawes told me the moment a person consumes ANY alcohol, they are under the influence.
    Yea he has said those exact words on this site as well. And 1000000000000000000000000% true.

  16. #16
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    Simple.

    Guns and alcohol don't mix any better than guns and drugs.

    When I go out to eat, I am the designated driver so it is not an option. Others think they can handle 1 or 2 drinks, but I do not agree, nor do I preach.

    I expect people to take responsibility for their actions.

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    Regular Member HandyHamlet's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by va_tazdad View Post

    ...nor do I preach.
    Quote Originally Posted by va_tazdad View Post
    Guns and alcohol don't mix any better than guns and drugs.

    The art of bullsh*t is not so strong in this one. (rolls eyes)

    Understatement.
    "Don't interfere with anything in the Constitution. That must be maintained, for it is the only safeguard of our liberties."
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    Quote Originally Posted by Prophet View Post
    I always go out armed. If i start drinking and feel like having a few more then I would be comfortable driving with, I unload and give the bullets to a friend. That way, if I need it, its there and in case im a sloppy idiot im not going to drop it while taking a piss and shoot myself in the ass.

    But even if i get that drunk, i can always use an unloaded pistol as a club so I would never disarm.

    This is in regards to states where these actions would be legal. In states where gunning while drinking is regulated I would follow the law.


    Edit: With that being said, I think i've only had to do this about 3 times. One should keep their wits about them when carrying a firearm and take precautions from finding themselves in a less than ideal situation.
    A club???? PLease tell me you are joking....

  19. #19
    Regular Member OC for ME's Avatar
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    Tough choice.....self-defense or a cool frosty friendly.
    "I would rather be exposed to the inconveniences attending too much liberty than to those attending too small a degree of it." - Thomas Jefferson.

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  20. #20
    Newbie W.E.G.'s Avatar
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    Annoy the policeman.
    Get handed a summons.

    Might beat the rap, but you won't beat the ride.
    No reported cases that reliably define the alcohol-consumption standard for this statute.

    Is there still a question?

  21. #21
    Regular Member mbhudson's Avatar
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    any alcohol is to much

    if your going to go out and drink then dont carry a firearm can you step back for a moment and think about the huge risk you are putting yourself and others in ok forget others and think only about yourself what happens when God forbid you get into a situation that forces you to defend your life then what well you will almost surely be in court a some point defending that decision and one of the key things you must be able to articulate is proclusion so when the states attorney asks what else could you have done to prevent the shooting if you have made the choice to leave your house and drink while carrying a gun its going to be extremely difficult to show that you were operating with a clear mind since the state has a standing that any alcohol consumption at all puts you in the under the influence category therefore you can be found liable because shooting another person must be a last resort and can only happen when all other ways out have been exhausted and as a side note it is totally irresponsible and i would not choose to be around anyone that is armed and drinking my 2 cents

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    Asked and answered

    Quote Originally Posted by HandyHamlet View Post
    The art of bullsh*t is not so strong in this one. (rolls eyes)

    Understatement.
    Sorry HH, but I simply answered the question without preaching what others should do. I simply stated what I think, expect and do. That is not preaching.

    Sorry you have a reading comprehension problem. (No eyes rolled!)

  23. #23
    Regular Member HandyHamlet's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by va_tazdad View Post
    Sorry HH, but I simply answered the question(No eyes rolled!)
    Seriously?

    Save the lame-o BS. We have established you suck at it. Oh, by the way... We can all see what you wrote.

    Guns and alcohol don't mix any better than guns and drugs.
    Yawn. Not preaching...





    Here's a news flash for you. It's none of your business what anyone else does. So save your sermon for yourself. How's that for preaching?
    Last edited by HandyHamlet; 08-20-2012 at 03:38 AM.
    "Don't interfere with anything in the Constitution. That must be maintained, for it is the only safeguard of our liberties."
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    Accomplished Advocate peter nap's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by va_tazdad View Post
    Sorry HH, but I simply answered the question without preaching what others should do. I simply stated what I think, expect and do. That is not preaching.

    Sorry you have a reading comprehension problem. (No eyes rolled!)

    And people wonder why Taz.

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    Reading comprehension isn't her best class

    Quote Originally Posted by peter nap View Post
    And people wonder why Taz.
    I didn't start the thread, but I did answer the question.

    HH should get a grip and learn to read. She should start with the 1st post of this thread!

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