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After how many drinks is carrying a no-no?

tomrkba

Regular Member
Joined
Dec 4, 2011
Messages
125
Location
Virginia
This started in the Washington State forum thread "After how many drinks is carrying a no-no?". I want to talk about it in the Virginia forum.

Americans treat alcohol in a very odd way. Culturally, we're morons when it comes to alcohol. We behave poorly when we consume it. This is the reason why so many people have had "No drinking and shooting" drilled into their heads. This is not the case in Europe. There are gun ranges with bars. You'll see people drinking beer and then go shooting. I don't drink and carry in public places. If I ever do drink while carrying, I limit it to exactly one drink and do not leave private property until at least one hour after I finish the drink.

That said, Virginia law is very specific. It is a misdemeanor to be intoxicated in public (18.2-388). A person with a permit to carry a concealed handgun is subject to this:

J1. Any person permitted to carry a concealed handgun, who is under the influence of alcohol or illegal drugs while carrying such handgun in a public place, shall be guilty of a Class 1 misdemeanor. Conviction of any of the following offenses shall be prima facie evidence, subject to rebuttal, that the person is "under the influence" for purposes of this section: manslaughter in violation of § 18.2-36.1, maiming in violation of § 18.2-51.4, driving while intoxicated in violation of § 18.2-266, public intoxication in violation of § 18.2-388, or driving while intoxicated in violation of § 46.2-341.24. Upon such conviction that court shall revoke the person's permit for a concealed handgun and promptly notify the issuing circuit court. A person convicted of a violation of this subsection shall be ineligible to apply for a concealed handgun permit for a period of five years.

Note the conditions:

You must:
1) Have a permit to carry a concealed handgun.
2) Be in a public place.
3) Be intoxicated. I am not sure what the definition of "under the influence" is.

The good news is that you can carry concealed in restaurants and bars if you do not drink.

My questions are:

1) What is the legal definition of "intoxicated" in Virginia?
2) What is the legal definition of "under the influence" in Virginia?
3) Since a permit to carry a concealed handgun changes how the law treats someone, how does this affect open carry? Is a person openly carrying a gun, who has no permit to carry a concealed handgun, merely subject to 18.2-388 (public intoxication)? Does a person with a concealed carry permit have a different definition of "intoxication" while open carrying? If so, what is that definition?


Citations:

http://leg1.state.va.us/cgi-bin/legp504.exe?000+cod+18.2-308. Section J1.

http://leg1.state.va.us/cgi-bin/legp504.exe?000+cod+18.2-388
 
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skidmark

Campaign Veteran
Joined
Jan 15, 2007
Messages
10,444
Location
Valhalla
....

My questions are:

1) What is the legal definition of "intoxicated" in Virginia?
2) What is the legal definition of "under the influence" in Virginia?
3) Since a permit to carry a concealed handgun changes how the law treats someone, how does this affect open carry? Is a person openly carrying a gun, who has no permit to carry a concealed handgun, merely subject to 18.2-388 (public intoxication)? Does a person with a concealed carry permit have a different definition of "intoxication" while open carrying? If so, what is that definition?

My responses are:

1) There is none in this setting and besides the Code refers to "under the influence" and not "intoxicated".
2) There is none. A plain reading would suggest either some specifiable level of impairment OR any detectable amount. I'm not inclined to find out what the honorable justices think the answer is.
3) a) Yes, since CC is not a factor at all. b) Yes, obviously, as the Code talks about "under the influence" for CC and we have agreed that OC is controlled by "public intoxication". c) See response #2. At best I'd take a SWAG that if you do not passs the standard roasdside DUI screening tests (even if you are not driving but walking when stopped for suspicion of being publically intoxicated) you will find the LEO deciding the shoe fits.

stay safe.

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skidmark

Campaign Veteran
Joined
Jan 15, 2007
Messages
10,444
Location
Valhalla
This started in the Washington State forum thread "After how many drinks is carrying a no-no?". I want to talk about it in the Virginia forum.

Americans treat alcohol in a very odd way. Culturally, we're morons when it comes to alcohol. We behave poorly when we consume it. This is the reason why so many people have had "No drinking and shooting" drilled into their heads. This is not the case in Europe. There are gun ranges with bars. You'll see people drinking beer and then go shooting. I don't drink and carry in public places. If I ever do drink while carrying, I limit it to exactly one drink and do not leave private property until at least one hour after I finish the drink.

I want to address this part of your post separately from the part regarding the legal questions.

Whether we like it or not, public perception is a huge part of how gun owners decide how to behave. As you have noted, there are differing perceptions about drinking and drinking while armed.

The common decision has been, for quite some time, not to push this envelope. Throwing the issue of carrying while drinking/drinking while carrying into the mix does a disservice to both those who are trying to un-deamonize alcohol and those trying to un-deamonize firearms. Yep, it's a public image issue moreso than it is either a legal or actual-dangerousness issue. But we have enough people trying to create an adverse public perception of firearm carriers without adding to those numbers the WCTU folks, who are as whackadoodle in their way as the antis are in their way.

stay safe.
 

Prophet

Regular Member
Joined
Feb 29, 2008
Messages
544
Location
Pittsburgh, Pennsylvania, USA
I always go out armed. If i start drinking and feel like having a few more then I would be comfortable driving with, I unload and give the bullets to a friend. That way, if I need it, its there and in case im a sloppy idiot im not going to drop it while taking a piss and shoot myself in the ass.

But even if i get that drunk, i can always use an unloaded pistol as a club so I would never disarm.

This is in regards to states where these actions would be legal. In states where gunning while drinking is regulated I would follow the law.


Edit: With that being said, I think i've only had to do this about 3 times. One should keep their wits about them when carrying a firearm and take precautions from finding themselves in a less than ideal situation.
 
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Fuller Malarkey

Regular Member
Joined
Sep 12, 2010
Messages
1,020
Location
The Cadre
So to the OP:

Are you attempting to define responsible

....or legal?

Or supportable?

I'll submit exactly what I submitted in the other thread regarding the effects ONE drink may have on a human.

Alcohol is a depressant drug and therefore slows down reaction time and affects judgement with just one drink. Controlled studies prove this ad nauseam.

One to two drinks of alcohol impair mental and physical abilities; mental processes such as restraint, awareness, concentration and judgment are affected, reaction time slowed, and an inability to perform complicated tasks.
{“The Effects of Alcohol and Other Drugs,” Motorcycle Safety Foundation, Irvine, CA, 1991}

Any blood alcohol level, even a BAC of 0.02%, the result of just one drink, increases the risk of a crash. Alcohol impairs nearly every aspect of the brain’s ability to process information, as well as the eye’s ability to focus and react to light.
{University of California, Berkeley, Wellness Letter, Jan. 1998}

Impairment in performance begins at below 0.02% BAC (1 to 1-1/2 drinks can result in this level).
{NIAAA - Alcohol Problems and Aging: 1998 U.S. Dept. of Health and Human Services

The blocking of inhibitions is caused by alcohol's action on the higher centers of the brain's cortex, particularly the part of the brain that controls reason and judgment. It then acts on the lower centers of the limbic system that rule mood and emotion, and even at low-to-medium doses can increase self-confidence, sociability, and sexual desire, but can also result in aggression, violence and sexual assault. This disinhibition is mostly due to the interference with GABA, an inhibitory neurotransmitter.
{Alcoholmd.com - October 2001}

Even a small amount of alcohol can affect your balance and reflexes.
{National Institute on Aging - 2003}

Even one beer (or one drink) can slow your reactions and confuse your thinking. This means anything that requires concentration and coordination - like driving - is more dangerous when you’ve had a drink. Drinking is a problem if it interferes with how you think or feel.
{familydoctor.org - May 2003}

The most common response denying alcohol's affect on mood and judgement is "I'm unique".
 

sparkman2

Regular Member
Joined
Jul 18, 2011
Messages
132
Location
Hampton Roads, Virginia
I personally would not combine the two. If I choose to drink I drink at home. When I go out to eat I am carrying but I will not consume alcohol. Just a personal preference that I have but others may feel differently about it.
 
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WalkingWolf

Regular Member
Joined
Jul 31, 2011
Messages
11,930
Location
North Carolina
I personally would not combine the two. If I choose to drink I drink at home. When I go out to eat I am carrying but I will not consume alcohol. Just a personal preference that I have but others may feel differently about it.

(in a foxworthy voice)If you so drunk you confuse your gun for your drink, you might of had too many drinks to be carrying.
 

45acpForMe

Newbie
Joined
Nov 21, 2008
Messages
2,805
Location
Yorktown, Virginia, USA
I always go out armed. If i start drinking and feel like having a few more then I would be comfortable driving with, I unload and give the bullets to a friend. <snip>

Although I see you are in PA, in VA giving bullets to your friend doesn't mean squat if you retain the firearm, you are still "carrying". Most laws that I have read talk about a firearm as a device that is "capable" of shooting, not whether it is in functioning (loaded) condition. Think of it as when the two idiots in FL recently went into the internet cafe to rob the place but got repelled by an old geeser with a small pistol. They will still be convicted of armed robbery even though afterwards the robber admited the gun was unloaded and rusted to the point of not functioning.

As far as drinking and carrying, I will fight for people to do what they may within the law. A secondary issue is whether it gives gun-owners a positive image or not.

The problem in Virginia as I see it is that the current laws are vague enough for any LEO to abuse/mis-use them to my detriment. Until the laws are changed, if ever, I will confine my alcohol consumption while carrying to private property and not traverse "public" property afterwards.

I drink about a 12 pack of beer a year though so I am not drinking very often. Another thing to consider is that you are carrying to be ready to defend yourself. Alcohol as well as other over the counter medicine can slow you reaction time so it is like bringing a revolver to a gunfight and only loading every other chamber. :)
 

scouser

Regular Member
Joined
Apr 4, 2011
Messages
1,341
Location
804, VA
in case im a sloppy idiot im not going to drop it while taking a piss and shoot myself in the ass.

what do you carry when you go out? I'm interested because I would like to make sure that my next purchase is something different. Nothing I possess at the moment will fire if dropped, I'd like to keep it that way.


But even if i get that drunk, i can always use an unloaded pistol as a club so I would never disarm.

This is in regards to states where these actions would be legal. In states where gunning while drinking is regulated I would follow the law.

in that case, what would you do in Virginia?

If i start drinking and feel like having a few more then I would be comfortable driving with, I unload and give the bullets to a friend

Me, personally, I don't have a safe driving limit for alcohol, my job depends upon me not having any DUI or DWI, so just one drink and I won't get behind the wheel, it's just not worth it for me. I'm at that point in my life where my drinking is mostly done in my own home, although I can't truthfully deny ever doing anything stupid while under the influence of alcohol (asking my ex to marry me probably ranks up there as stupid act #1, thankfully she said no and I ended up with Logan's mom instead)
 

va_tazdad

Regular Member
Joined
Feb 23, 2009
Messages
1,162
Location
Richmond, Virginia, USA
Simple.

Guns and alcohol don't mix any better than guns and drugs.

When I go out to eat, I am the designated driver so it is not an option. Others think they can handle 1 or 2 drinks, but I do not agree, nor do I preach.

I expect people to take responsibility for their actions.
 

love4guns

Regular Member
Joined
Dec 7, 2011
Messages
167
Location
Lynchburg
I always go out armed. If i start drinking and feel like having a few more then I would be comfortable driving with, I unload and give the bullets to a friend. That way, if I need it, its there and in case im a sloppy idiot im not going to drop it while taking a piss and shoot myself in the ass.

But even if i get that drunk, i can always use an unloaded pistol as a club so I would never disarm.

This is in regards to states where these actions would be legal. In states where gunning while drinking is regulated I would follow the law.


Edit: With that being said, I think i've only had to do this about 3 times. One should keep their wits about them when carrying a firearm and take precautions from finding themselves in a less than ideal situation.

A club???? PLease tell me you are joking....
 

W.E.G.

Newbie
Joined
Oct 7, 2007
Messages
503
Location
all over VA, ,
Annoy the policeman.
Get handed a summons.

Might beat the rap, but you won't beat the ride.
No reported cases that reliably define the alcohol-consumption standard for this statute.

Is there still a question?
 
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