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Thread: Stopped for 50 minutes and banned at Paw Paw HS

  1. #1
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    Stopped for 50 minutes and banned at Paw Paw HS

    So today was the county tax auction and we (myself, older brother, dad and our friend Ricky) were going to bid on a specific house we had been looking at online. Which happened to be at the Paw Paw HS auditorium, Ricky and I showed up a little late at around 1PM walked in and sat down without a problem. Watched a few houses go for good prices and then I see the Reserve Officer that I walked past entering the room walked part way to me and signaled for me to head his way. I got up and he said lets go talk out here, we walk out to the main entrance/lobby area and he asked me if I had any ID, I told him that I did have ID. He then asked me if I was going to show him my ID and I told him I didn't really think there was any reason he needed it. He then immediately got on his radio and called for "A backup vehicle" at 1:30sec after we first made contact. we then stood silent for about six and a half minutes and 3 or 4 state police and two paw paw city police (one was a bike cop) walked inside the school. Mind you.. in retrospect, had I known the issue was going to be made such a big deal of I would have probably just shown my CPL and been able to see the auction. But state cop 1 comes in and walks right up to me in a stern and angry face and says "Identification." Me: what? ST 1: Identification, now. I cant remember everything exactly but we debated about the duty to ID while OC in a PFZ for about 10 minutes. wither I should have or not, I told him my name. He turned back to the Reserve Officer and asked if anyone from the school was there, which apparently there wasn't. He asked for him to contact some school officials and walked out to his cruiser to run my name I guess. Then there was a 22-25 min period where I prolly just flat out talked a little too much with a couple officers while we waited. I do give Kudos to the Paw Paw City/Village Officer though he was cool and respectful and knowledgeable about firearms law and guns. Some school officials showed up eventually, the Principal and Super attendant I believe and went outside to talk with ST 1. and State Police SGT who showed up shortly before that. After waiting about 15 more minutes the SGT entered with trooper 1 and the officials and says basically when it comes down to it I am going to be asked to leave the school, because of this major disturbance that I HAD CAUSED He asked me if I had any questions and I told him no not really. They then told me if I now was ever to come back I would be charged with criminal trespass. I asked if that ment armed or un-armed and I was informed that it applied to either, indefinitely. I just said ok and SGT and Trooper escorted me to the vehicle. Ricky had to get a ride home with the other guys. That was about it, A lot happened I'm sure I may have forgot a couple things and didn't want to type out every detail. I'm thinking about posting the audio I have though. I sure I didn't handle it perfectly but for one of my first encounters like that I think I did ok I guess. wooo... so yeah.

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    Follow up on this. Take it as far as it can go, make as much noise as possible, and keep knocking on doors until you run out of them.

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    Campaign Veteran Glock9mmOldStyle's Avatar
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    Re: Stopped for 50 minutes and banned at Paw Paw HS

    Thank goodness you had a recorder, as I would not put it past them to come at you weeks later with some BS charge like breach of peace. Do not post it until you have talked to a lawyer. If you used wash, rinse, repeat at the beginning of this stop - am I under arrest/detained - under suspicion of what crime am I being held - repeat , repeat, repeat - you have a good shot at winning a 1983 federal suit against all parties for this clear violation of your rights.

    Make them leak money, it's the only thing they understand.

    Giving up civil rights for security is a certain way to lose both!
    Last edited by Glock9mmOldStyle; 08-15-2012 at 11:41 PM.
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    “Firearms are second only to the Constitution in importance; they are the peoples' liberty's teeth.” “The very atmosphere of firearms anywhere and everywhere restrains evil interference - they deserve a place of honor with all that's good.” George Washington

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    Quote Originally Posted by Phil McCracken View Post
    Take his advice. He's not using it.

    actually, yes i am.

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    Regular Member TheQ's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Phil McCracken View Post
    Take his advice. He's not using it.
    Quote Originally Posted by stainless1911 View Post
    actually, yes i am.

    Last edited by TheQ; 08-15-2012 at 11:58 PM.
    Call for a cop, call for an ambulance, and call for a pizza. See who shows up first.

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    Regular Member griffin's Avatar
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    It's over with now, but you can figure that if you're claiming exemption due to CPL ownership, you're going to have to provide it sooner or later, either on the spot or later in court. Any reason why you didn't show the first officer?
    "If we lose freedom here, there's no place to escape to."
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    Thats what I was wondering.

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    Re: Stopped for 50 minutes and banned at Paw Paw HS

    Quote Originally Posted by griffin View Post
    It's over with now, but you can figure that if you're claiming exemption due to CPL ownership, you're going to have to provide it sooner or later, either on the spot or later in court. Any reason why you didn't show the first officer?
    Quote Originally Posted by stainless1911 View Post
    Thats what I was wondering.
    Aux. Officers only have the same power of arrest that you or I do, citizens arrest meaning felony only in most cases. Maybe this was a question of authority and venue? School is out the school was being used for realestate speculation in my humble opinion, so the op may have had some valid reasons to take issue with the Aux. Officers questions, false detainment etc...



    Giving up civil rights for security is a certain way to lose both!
    “A government that does not trust it’s law-abiding citizens to keep and bear arms is itself unworthy of trust.” James Madison.

    “Firearms are second only to the Constitution in importance; they are the peoples' liberty's teeth.” “The very atmosphere of firearms anywhere and everywhere restrains evil interference - they deserve a place of honor with all that's good.” George Washington

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    Quote Originally Posted by griffin View Post
    It's over with now, but you can figure that if you're claiming exemption due to CPL ownership, you're going to have to provide it sooner or later, either on the spot or later in court. Any reason why you didn't show the first officer?
    There is no law that requires disclosure, and thus there is no reason to disclose on the spot. Whether they can lawfully stop you or not, OCing while not in a car does not by itself require disclosing anything. Not showing ID, and not talking, is a great way to help prove it was an unlawful stop as opposed to a voluntary one.

    Dr Todd and others feel that carry in a CEZ is generally a crime, and that proof of non criminal status is shown through showing ID, and thus showing ID is the way to go. I'm not saying I'm utterly confident that they're wrong, but my take on it very much remains that you shouldn't so as to have proof later that you weren't stopped voluntarily, in addition to other reasons such as reminding bullying cops what their place is, as well as what the constitution says.
    Last edited by Michigander; 08-16-2012 at 12:39 AM.
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    Regular Member Fallschirmjäger's Avatar
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    Can you be trespassed from public property, while the property is being used for a public purpose by the public government if you have committed no criminal act, no breach of the peace, no disturbance, and have not broken any rules of said public property?

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    Quote Originally Posted by griffin View Post
    It's over with now, but you can figure that if you're claiming exemption due to CPL ownership, you're going to have to provide it sooner or later, either on the spot or later in court. Any reason why you didn't show the first officer?

    Rookie mistake?

    Honestly I didn't expect nor want all the drama today, though I may have earned it. We were there to buy some property and I do kind of wish I just showed to the first officer. When he asked if I was going to show him ID and replied I didnt see where I really needed to he immediatly called for an extra car, so they were on the way regardless, and I figure I would have complied with the Trooper but from the moment he looked and spoke to me he was, well honestly just a *explitives* and after that I just stood my ground. I Based my first decision thinking that a person legally OC W/O a CPL walking down the street needs to be 1) not a felon and 2) the pistol registered to them and 3) at least 18. But the mear carry of a weapon isn't grounds to ID you to see if you're not a felon or of age, or seize you're gun to run the numbers. I applied the same thinking to OC in a PFZ with a CPL.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Fallschirmjäger View Post
    Can you be trespassed from public property, while the property is being used for a public purpose by the public government if you have committed no criminal act, no breach of the peace, no disturbance, and have not broken any rules of said public property?
    It has to go through court first.,

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    Preemption is a gun thing. The question here isnt about firearms, it is trespass.

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    I know, I have been through this one personally. I'm very well versed on this subject Pat.
    Last edited by stainless1911; 08-16-2012 at 12:45 AM.

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    Regular Member Fallschirmjäger's Avatar
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    Just a personal opinion - - -
    Giving your Identification Card (in the USA your driving license is the de facto card) does not In Any Way mean the encounter will be shorter. All you have done is provided the officer with something you want back and he can "hold hostage." What are you going to do, walk away without a driving license?

    If state law mandates it, then you have no choice; if you Do have a choice retain your personal papers at all costs.
    Last edited by Fallschirmjäger; 08-16-2012 at 10:58 AM.

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    Unless I plan on driving, I dont carry ID after the stunt that OCSD pulled.

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    Regular Member griffin's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Michigander View Post
    There is no law that requires disclosure, and thus there is no reason to disclose on the spot.
    We went over this in the recent Scotchman incident. While you are correct about the absence of law, I disagree with your assertion there is no reason to disclose. I think your choice is to show your CPL then or show it in court. If you refuse to ID yourself, period, that won't stop the police from arresting you if they want to. You just won't get out until you do ID yourself.

    I guess it's in how far you want to take it. I wish there was a better way of dealing with this issue, but I don't see it.
    "If we lose freedom here, there's no place to escape to."
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    Regular Member Michigander's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Fallschirmjäger View Post
    Can you be trespassed from public property, while the property is being used for a public purpose by the public government if you have committed no criminal act, no breach of the peace, no disturbance, and have not broken any rules of said public property?
    The thing I'm a bit curious about is if the open meetings act covers this very issue in this case. If anyone is well versed in that law please explain.

    Quote Originally Posted by griffin View Post
    I guess it's in how far you want to take it. I wish there was a better way of dealing with this issue, but I don't see it.
    You may want to risk legalizing an otherwise unlawful stop, and you may not. Personally, I would at least wait until they've done their damage to your rights, well past the point of doubt, before showing ID. That's your choice. My experience however, especially on my own, is that if they're that irritable and obnoxious, they'll just decide to unlawfully felony stop you and take your ID anyway, that is if you're carrying any.
    Answer every question about open carry in Michigan you ever had with one convenient and free book- http://libertyisforeveryone.com/open-carry-resources/

    The complete and utter truth can be challenged from every direction and it will always hold up. Accordingly there are few greater displays of illegitimacy than to attempt to impede free thought and communication.

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    Operating a motor vehicle on a highway of this state is also a criminal act, but it is unlawful for an officer to stop you simply to make sure you have the proper papers The scotus has ruled.

    I do not believe you need to provide your papers simply because it is unlawful to possess a pistol in a pfz without a license. In fact, it is unlawful to possess a pistol anywhere in the state without a license (purchase permit,) yet it is still unlawful For a Leo to detain a person simply for possessing a pistol.

    In either case, I believe the officer would require reasonable suspicion that you do not have a license in order to lawfully detain a person.

    If dr Todd is correct, then you would likely be required to provide your license when oc at meijer or any other place listed in 750.234d, or even if you were open carrying on a sidewalk or anywhere else in the state.


    If you were to go to court, then the onus is on you to provide proof that you have a license to possess a firearm in certain prohibited places.
    Quis custodiet ipsos custodes? (who will watch the watchmen?)

    I am not a lawyer. Nothing in any of posts should be construed as legal advice.

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    Regular Member Tucker6900's Avatar
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    Correct me if I am wrong, but if we are required to have a CPL in order to open carry at a school, would it be required to prove that you have one? To me its the same as disclosing that you are concealing. If you conceal you must have a permit, and provide it when requested. Correct?


    Quote Originally Posted by Phil McCracken View Post
    Take his advice. He's not using it.
    Really? Knock it off.
    The only terrorists I see nowadays are at the Capital.


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    Regular Member Michigander's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Tucker6900 View Post
    Correct me if I am wrong, but if we are required to have a CPL in order to open carry at a school, would it be required to prove that you have one? To me its the same as disclosing that you are concealing. If you conceal you must have a permit, and provide it when requested. Correct?.
    You're trying to interject common sense into a law that has little to none.

    No, it is not the same because showing proof of any kind in regards to licensed status is not required by any specific law when it comes to OCing on foot and not in a car. Other factors are an individual decision to make, but it should be known and understood that no, you don't have to disclose just for licensed OCing in a CEZ.
    Last edited by Michigander; 08-16-2012 at 09:20 AM.
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    The complete and utter truth can be challenged from every direction and it will always hold up. Accordingly there are few greater displays of illegitimacy than to attempt to impede free thought and communication.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Phil McCracken View Post
    You mean the "stunt" they pulled when they caught you lurking around the employee entrance?

    You are a liar and a coward Pat.

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    Regular Member TheQ's Avatar
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    Stopped for 50 minutes and banned at Paw Paw HS

    Quote Originally Posted by stainless1911 View Post
    You are a liar and a coward Pat.
    He hasn't poked you in 12 hours. Do you want to give him a reason to start up again?
    Call for a cop, call for an ambulance, and call for a pizza. See who shows up first.

    I am not a lawyer (merely an omnipotent member of a continuum). The contents of this post are not a substitute for sound legal advice from a licensed attorney in your jurisdiction.

    Comments and views stated in my post are my own and do not necessarily represent the views of Michigan Open Carry, Inc. unless stated otherwise in the post.

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    I'll just wait for him to get himself jammed up, that will be entertaining.

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    Know the Law

    If you knew the law, there would have been NO PROBLEM.........

    When approached by a Public Safety Officer, and you are a CCW Permit holder, YOU MUST DECLARE IT to him or her
    when the first meeting occurs, weather you are carrying or not. Thats the name of that tune......

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