Stopped for 50 minutes and banned at Paw Paw HS

So today was the county tax auction and we (myself, older brother, dad and our friend Ricky) were going to bid on a specific house we had been looking at online. Which happened to be at the Paw Paw HS auditorium, Ricky and I showed up a little late at around 1PM walked in and sat down without a problem. Watched a few houses go for good prices and then I see the Reserve Officer that I walked past entering the room walked part way to me and signaled for me to head his way. I got up and he said lets go talk out here, we walk out to the main entrance/lobby area and he asked me if I had any ID, I told him that I did have ID. He then asked me if I was going to show him my ID and I told him I didn't really think there was any reason he needed it. He then immediately got on his radio and called for "A backup vehicle" at 1:30sec after we first made contact. we then stood silent for about six and a half minutes and 3 or 4 state police and two paw paw city police (one was a bike cop) walked inside the school. Mind you.. in retrospect, had I known the issue was going to be made such a big deal of I would have probably just shown my CPL and been able to see the auction. But state cop 1 comes in and walks right up to me in a stern and angry face and says "Identification." Me: what? ST 1: Identification, now. I cant remember everything exactly but we debated about the duty to ID while OC in a PFZ for about 10 minutes. wither I should have or not, I told him my name. He turned back to the Reserve Officer and asked if anyone from the school was there, which apparently there wasn't. He asked for him to contact some school officials and walked out to his cruiser to run my name I guess. Then there was a 22-25 min period where I prolly just flat out talked a little too much with a couple officers while we waited. I do give Kudos to the Paw Paw City/Village Officer though he was cool and respectful and knowledgeable about firearms law and guns. Some school officials showed up eventually, the Principal and Super attendant I believe and went outside to talk with ST 1. and State Police SGT who showed up shortly before that. After waiting about 15 more minutes the SGT entered with trooper 1 and the officials and says basically when it comes down to it I am going to be asked to leave the school, because of this major disturbance that I HAD CAUSED He asked me if I had any questions and I told him no not really. They then told me if I now was ever to come back I would be charged with criminal trespass. I asked if that ment armed or un-armed and I was informed that it applied to either, indefinitely. I just said ok and SGT and Trooper :banghead: escorted me to the vehicle. Ricky had to get a ride home with the other guys. That was about it, A lot happened I'm sure I may have forgot a couple things and didn't want to type out every detail. I'm thinking about posting the audio I have though. I sure I didn't handle it perfectly but for one of my first encounters like that I think I did ok I guess. wooo... so yeah.

Follow up on this. Take it as far as it can go, make as much noise as possible, and keep knocking on doors until you run out of them.

Thank goodness you had a recorder, as I would not put it past them to come at you weeks later with some BS charge like breach of peace. Do not post it until you have talked to a lawyer. If you used wash, rinse, repeat at the beginning of this stop - am I under arrest/detained - under suspicion of what crime am I being held - repeat , repeat, repeat - you have a good shot at winning a 1983 federal suit against all parties for this clear violation of your rights.

Make them leak money, it's the only thing they understand.:banghead:

Giving up civil rights for security is a certain way to lose both!

stainless1911 said:

Follow up on this. Take it as far as it can go, make as much noise as possible, and keep knocking on doors until you run out of them.

Click to expand...

Take his advice. He's not using it.

Glock9mmOldStyle said:

Make them leak money, it's the only thing they understand.:banghead:

Click to expand...

^^^This^^^

They have to spend tens of thousands of dollars to defend against even the smallest of settlements.

Phil McCracken said:

Take his advice. He's not using it.

Click to expand...

actually, yes i am.

Phil McCracken said:

Take his advice. He's not using it.

Click to expand...

stainless1911 said:

actually, yes i am.

Click to expand...

It's over with now, but you can figure that if you're claiming exemption due to CPL ownership, you're going to have to provide it sooner or later, either on the spot or later in court. Any reason why you didn't show the first officer?

Thats what I was wondering.

griffin said:

It's over with now, but you can figure that if you're claiming exemption due to CPL ownership, you're going to have to provide it sooner or later, either on the spot or later in court. Any reason why you didn't show the first officer?

Click to expand...

stainless1911 said:

Thats what I was wondering.

Click to expand...

Aux. Officers only have the same power of arrest that you or I do, citizens arrest meaning felony only in most cases. Maybe this was a question of authority and venue? School is out the school was being used for realestate speculation in my humble opinion, so the op may have had some valid reasons to take issue with the Aux. Officers questions, false detainment etc...



Giving up civil rights for security is a certain way to lose both!

griffin said:

It's over with now, but you can figure that if you're claiming exemption due to CPL ownership, you're going to have to provide it sooner or later, either on the spot or later in court. Any reason why you didn't show the first officer?

Click to expand...

There is no law that requires disclosure, and thus there is no reason to disclose on the spot. Whether they can lawfully stop you or not, OCing while not in a car does not by itself require disclosing anything. Not showing ID, and not talking, is a great way to help prove it was an unlawful stop as opposed to a voluntary one.

Dr Todd and others feel that carry in a CEZ is generally a crime, and that proof of non criminal status is shown through showing ID, and thus showing ID is the way to go. I'm not saying I'm utterly confident that they're wrong, but my take on it very much remains that you shouldn't so as to have proof later that you weren't stopped voluntarily, in addition to other reasons such as reminding bullying cops what their place is, as well as what the constitution says.

Can you be trespassed from public property, while the property is being used for a public purpose by the public government if you have committed no criminal act, no breach of the peace, no disturbance, and have not broken any rules of said public property?

Michigander said:

There is no law that requires disclosure, and thus there is no reason to disclose on the spot. Whether they can lawfully stop you or not, OCing while not in a car does not by itself require disclosing anything. Not showing ID, and not talking, is a great way to help prove it was an unlawful stop as opposed to a voluntary one.

Dr Todd and others feel that carry in a CEZ is generally a crime, and that proof of non criminal status is shown through showing ID, and thus showing ID is the way to go. I'm not saying I'm utterly confident that they're wrong, but my take on it very much remains that you shouldn't so as to have proof later that you weren't stopped voluntarily, in addition to other reasons such as reminding bullying cops what they're place is, as well as what the constitution says.

Click to expand...

Agreed here. If the OP asked if he was being detained or free to go and the officer acknowledged he was detained. the OP could have ascerted his right to not answer questions without an attorney present.

If he was not detained, the since he had a lawful reason to be there, he could have returned to his seat.

Thus the encounter would have been over in either 3 mins or less.

I personally don't believe in trying to educate anyone in authority on their turf. IE: during a stop (whether lawful or not).

"Am I free to go?"

"Yes" Then leave.

"No" Then shut up.

griffin said:

It's over with now, but you can figure that if you're claiming exemption due to CPL ownership, you're going to have to provide it sooner or later, either on the spot or later in court. Any reason why you didn't show the first officer?

Click to expand...

Rookie mistake?

Honestly I didn't expect nor want all the drama today, though I may have earned it. We were there to buy some property and I do kind of wish I just showed to the first officer. When he asked if I was going to show him ID and replied I didnt see where I really needed to he immediatly called for an extra car, so they were on the way regardless, and I figure I would have complied with the Trooper but from the moment he looked and spoke to me he was, well honestly just a *explitives* and after that I just stood my ground. I Based my first decision thinking that a person legally OC W/O a CPL walking down the street needs to be 1) not a felon and 2) the pistol registered to them and 3) at least 18. But the mear carry of a weapon isn't grounds to ID you to see if you're not a felon or of age, or seize you're gun to run the numbers. I applied the same thinking to OC in a PFZ with a CPL.

Fallschirmjäger said:

Can you be trespassed from public property, while the property is being used for a public purpose by the public government if you have committed no criminal act, no breach of the peace, no disturbance, and have not broken any rules of said public property?

Click to expand...

It has to go through court first.,

Fallschirmjäger said:

Can you be trespassed from public property, while the property is being used for a public purpose by the public government if you have committed no criminal act, no breach of the peace, no disturbance, and have not broken any rules of said public property?

Click to expand...

Schools are not pre-empted because they are not a local unit of government as defined in the Michigan statutes. Therefore the short answer to your question is yes. However, the issue of voting at a school seems to cause a difference of opinion with regard to this.

Preemption is a gun thing. The question here isnt about firearms, it is trespass.

Adams182 said:

Rookie mistake?

Click to expand...

Not really a mistake. You were faced with some jack booted thugs. Members of America's largest street gang.

stainless1911 said:

Preemption is a gun thing. The question here isnt about firearms, it is trespass.

Click to expand...

*deleted*

I know, I have been through this one personally. I'm very well versed on this subject Pat.