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Thread: preemption opinion

  1. #1
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    preemption opinion

    With this reading am I correct to think the Festival Place is Pre-Empted?


    Located between Kalamazoo Avenue to the North and Water Street to the South at Edwards Street, the Arcadia Creek Festival Place is a multi-use space opened in 2004 by Downtown Tomorrow Incorporated. Several organizations and individuals funded the construction of the festival place through many generous donations.

    While the site is publicly owned by the City of Kalamazoo, the festival place is managed and
    programmed by Downtown Kalamazoo Association Charities and maintained by the Downtown
    Development Authority. The Arcadia Creek Festival Place is both a public open space
    and a special event venue. As an open space, the festival place is open daily to the general public as a setting for lunch, play and relaxation. As a special event venue, the festival place serves as a community gathering place for celebrations and special events of all types.


    http://www.downtownkalamazoo.org/Vis...val-Place.aspx

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    Campaign Veteran smellslikemichigan's Avatar
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    yup
    "If it ain't loaded and cocked it don't shoot." - Rooster Cogburn
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    Campaign Veteran smellslikemichigan's Avatar
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    http://www.downtownkalamazoo.org/DKI...ser-Manual.pdf
    from page 36:
    "If shots are heard, it is advised to get down to the ground immediately and lay as flat as
    possible. If the time and situation permits, a public message should be made to all on site to get
    down on the ground. Public Safety will provide instructions from that point forward. Do not attempt to take the gun from the perpetrator. If approached, it is important to not resist and
    give the suspect whatever it is that they want. Remember their appearance with as much detail
    as possible. Be a good witness.
    All efforts will be made to eliminate guns in the site, and under the rules, no guns are allowed in
    the site – and these rules should be explicably stated in the rules at the gate. Under MLCC
    ruling, event signage can state no guns and no concealed weapons."
    Last edited by smellslikemichigan; 08-17-2012 at 06:24 PM.
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    Campaign Veteran smellslikemichigan's Avatar
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    huh, i wonder why they don't cite the supposed MLCC ruling...
    "If it ain't loaded and cocked it don't shoot." - Rooster Cogburn
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    Quote Originally Posted by smellslikemichigan View Post
    huh, i wonder why they don't cite the supposed MLCC ruling...

    There's only ONE MLCC administrative rule that mentions firearms:

    A Licensee shall not allow fights, brawls or improper use of firearms, knives or other weapons. Rule 436.1011 (5c)

    EDIT: Cite http://www.michigan.gov/documents/dl...s_343265_7.pdf
    Last edited by zigziggityzoo; 08-17-2012 at 06:50 PM.

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    Campaign Veteran smellslikemichigan's Avatar
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    not only that, they will run into the same issue that royal oak did if they try to say that the entire area is a "bar"
    everyone under 17 will have to be escorted by a parent or guardian to be on premises according to 750.141 of the same document
    "If it ain't loaded and cocked it don't shoot." - Rooster Cogburn
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    Quote Originally Posted by smellslikemichigan View Post
    not only that, they will run into the same issue that royal oak did if they try to say that the entire area is a "bar"
    everyone under 17 will have to be escorted by a parent or guardian to be on premises according to 750.141 of the same document


    Interesting, thanks for the info thats what I thought. Some of my friends were thinking of going and I'm not a big drinker but I like Rock shows so I offered to DD for them.

  8. #8
    Campaign Veteran smellslikemichigan's Avatar
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    so no matter what you can still OC there with a CPL
    "If it ain't loaded and cocked it don't shoot." - Rooster Cogburn
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    Know where one would find the legal discription of what constitutes a "bar." or rather doesn't? or relevent codes that would come into play.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Adams182 View Post
    Know where one would find the legal discription of what constitutes a "bar." or rather doesn't? or relevent codes that would come into play.
    From 28.425o:

    (d) A bar or tavern licensed under the Michigan liquor control code of 1998, 1998 PA 58,MCL 436.1101 to 436.2303, where the primary source of income of the business is the sale of alcoholic liquor by the glass and consumed on the premises. This subdivision does not apply to an owner or employee of the business. The Michigan liquor control commission shall develop and make available to holders of licenses under the Michigan liquor control code of 1998, 1998 PA 58, MCL 436.1101 to 436.2303, an appropriate sign stating that "This establishment prohibits patrons from carrying concealed weapons". The owner or operator of an establishment licensed under the Michigan liquor control code of 1998, 1998 PA 58, MCL 436.1101 to 436.2303, may, but is not required to, post the sign developed under this subdivision. A record made available by an establishment licensed under the Michigan liquor control code of 1998, 1998 PA 58, MCL 436.1101 to 436.2303, necessary to enforce this subdivision is exempt from disclosure under the freedom of information act, 1976 PA 442, MCL 15.231 to 15.246.
    From MCL 436, THE MICHIGAN LIQUOR CONTROL CODE OF 1998:


    (5) "Bar" means a barrier or counter at which alcoholic liquor is sold to, served to, or consumed by customers.
    (1) "Tavern" means any place licensed to sell at retail beer and wine for consumption on the premises only.

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    Makes you wonder - a Brewpub is a tavern that can brew its own beer and sell it for on AND off-premise consumption.

    So since a Tavern can sell beer or wine for on-premise consumption ONLY, is a brewpub even restricted by 28.425o? It would be fun to argue in court.

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    Quote Originally Posted by zigziggityzoo View Post
    From 28.425o:



    From MCL 436, THE MICHIGAN LIQUOR CONTROL CODE OF 1998:
    Good pull with the 28.425o cite. duh.

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    Glad to see you're posting in this thread zig. I was going to suggest the OP send you a PM and invite you

    Bronson
    Those who expect to reap the benefits of freedom, must, like men, undergo the fatigue of supporting it. Thomas Paine

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    Yes thank you for the info! Well we went last night, the only thing that got out of control was some peoples dancing 0 issues getting in and enjoyed a great show.

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    Michigan Moderator DrTodd's Avatar
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    Re: preemption opinion

    Quote Originally Posted by Adams182 View Post
    Yes thank you for the info! Well we went last night, the only thing that got out of control was some peoples dancing 0 issues getting in and enjoyed a great show.
    Thank you for OCing there. Great to also hear there weren't any problems.
    Giving up our liberties for safety is the one sure way to let the violent among us win.

    "Though defensive violence will always be a 'sad necessity' in the eyes of men of principle, it would be still more unfortunate if wrongdoers should dominate just men." -Saint Augustine

    Disclaimer I am not a lawyer! Please do not consider anything you read from me to be legal advice.

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    Quote Originally Posted by DrTodd View Post
    Thank you for OCing there. Great to also hear there weren't any problems.

    Why no problem at all, thanks for the thanks. I had thought about going to a couple of the other events they do but I has assumed it was private property of some sort. Just found out it was public so I was excited to be able to see the show and still be able to defend myself. Now that I know i'm sure I will attend more, thought about setting up event there before it got too cold.

  17. #17
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    Quote Originally Posted by smellslikemichigan View Post
    http://www.downtownkalamazoo.org/DKI...ser-Manual.pdf
    from page 36:
    "If shots are heard, it is advised to get down to the ground immediately and lay as flat as
    possible. If the time and situation permits, a public message should be made to all on site to get
    down on the ground. Public Safety will provide instructions from that point forward. Do not attempt to take the gun from the perpetrator. If approached, it is important to not resist and
    give the suspect whatever it is that they want. Remember their appearance with as much detail
    as possible. Be a good witness.
    All efforts will be made to eliminate guns in the site, and under the rules, no guns are allowed in
    the site and these rules should be explicably stated in the rules at the gate. Under MLCC
    ruling, event signage can state no guns and no concealed weapons."



    Security at the gate didn't even notice, also I looked and didn't explicitly see any rules posted.

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