ATM
Campaign Veteran
ATM, you would not happen to be related to Pat D. Would you?
Don't know that name, but I will assume they must be either brilliant or extremely good looking.
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"I am not a 'sheepdog'"
- Thread starter TheQ
- Start date
Don't know that name, but I will assume they must be either brilliant or extremely good looking.
griffin
Regular Member
I disagree. What I think he's saying is that the original analogy is false, or at least incomplete. He makes it very clear, because in the original definition:
- a sheepdog lives to protect the flock and confront the wolf. He doesn't do that. He is neither paid for nor takes on that responsibility. If you want protection, provide it yourself or wait for a real sheepdog to come along and hopefully you'll still be alive and not slaughtered by the time they do.
- a sheepdog is a warrior, someone who is walking the hero's path. He's not a hero. In fact, he'll retreat if able to rather than confront the enemy (depending on the circumstances).
- a sheepdog is always sniffing around out on the perimeter and yearning for a righteous battle. He explicitly does NOT go looking for trouble and is not yearning for a battle. He just wants to stay safe.
- a sheepdog hunts wolves down. Again, he neither has that responsibility nor wants it.
I think LTC Grossman's definition is pretty clear and this guy's been pretty honest that he does not fit that definition. I happen to agree with his assessment.
ATM
Campaign Veteran
I get it, really I do, but a person deciding not to act to the fullest extreme of any of the characters in that purposefully limited analogy does not make it false.
And of course it's incomplete - it's a simple analogy. Analogies are by their nature overly simplified perspectives of some take on reality.
The primary descriptors of the three (and only three) characters presented, rather than the few examples of possible defining actions, motives or even vocations which you keep highlighting, are capability for violence, awareness and empathy.
Based on those factors, anyone would say he fits the sheepdog category of that analogy.
If you don't like this or any analogy, that's fine. Some folks hate them in general. But why play then? Why fixate on trying to prove something "wrong" that is only a limited take on reality to begin with? That's what I find odd.
To continually insist that one doesn't fit into it perfectly because reality has more complex distinctions does nothing to deny that you fit one of those three classifications much better than the other two - which is exactly the strength and purpose of such an analogy.
griffin
Regular Member
I understand what you are saying. But you don't understand what he is saying. He states that just because he is neither a wolf nor a sheep DOES NOT AUTOMATICALLY MEAN that he is a sheepdog.
He's very clear about that. He spends 7 minutes and 41 seconds explaining it. I think you and I (and he) would agree that the Venn diagram of the sheepdog and us do overlap somewhat. He just states it's not very much. The sheep and wolf circles are disjoint.
He's very clear about that. He spends 7 minutes and 41 seconds explaining it. I think you and I (and he) would agree that the Venn diagram of the sheepdog and us do overlap somewhat. He just states it's not very much. The sheep and wolf circles are disjoint.
stainless1911
Banned
I think the author intended the term "sheepdog" towards police and military, and possibly other "official" security or rescue personnel. Some civilians just liked the story and adopted it.
I agree with the fact that if you don't know whats going on, don't get involved, but people that won't help their fellow man make me ill.
That said, if you ban guns from your establishment, (excluding children) you are on your own. You wanted to live in a world without guns, we can see how well that works out for you, and you can live without mine.
I agree with the fact that if you don't know whats going on, don't get involved, but people that won't help their fellow man make me ill.
That said, if you ban guns from your establishment, (excluding children) you are on your own. You wanted to live in a world without guns, we can see how well that works out for you, and you can live without mine.
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ATM
Campaign Veteran
Which is simply an impossibility within the simplified framework of the analogy. He needs to just abandon the analogy rather than attempt to compete with it while still using the full range of options afforded in factual based reality. Apples to oranges.
I liken it to arguing against a hand sketched pencil caricature by saying you don't actually have a huge head on a tiny body and your ears aren't really that oversized nor your eyes that beady. As evidence for your claim, you point to a high resolution color photograph of yourself or measurements of your actual body dimensions and note the obvious differences.
...while all your friends note the uncanny resemblance and comment that it looks just like you. :lol:
I'm not actually "defending" the analogy itself any more than the guy's friends are defending the caricature, just pointing out what I feel is a silly attempt to "refute" it rather than forget it and just talk about the reality based decisions and actions he seems to prefer focusing on.
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davidmcbeth
Banned
Good point !
Shadow Bear
Michigan Moderator
There are old sheepdogs, and there are bold sheepdogs
but there are no old, bold sheepdogs.
I am a sheepdog, but I'm not a fool.
but there are no old, bold sheepdogs.
I am a sheepdog, but I'm not a fool.
griffin
Regular Member
I thought he was abandoning the analogy. I thought that was the whole point, that there aren't just three types of people: sheep, wolves, and sheepdogs.
But we all understand each other, so let me tell you about a guy I know. I know a guy in TN who became a reserve sheriff's deputy a couple of years ago. Once he did that half his conversation revolved around him being a sheepdog, a warrior, a protector of all of us little people, and how he ran down criminals. He began taking martial arts (which is a good thing) and quoting Sun Tzu every other breath. He read way of the warrior-type books with the frequency a frustrated housewife reads romance novels. He became insufferable.
So I started posting articles about police abuse and police going to prison. He didn't like that, took his football, and went home.
Being a sheep dog because you have a pistol is like being the Red Cross because you have a bug out bag. My pistol(s) and my bug out bag are very selfish in their purpose. They are for me. If others benefit from it, so be it. But that's not what I have them for. Sorry if that makes me sound like a greedy coward.
TheQ
Regular Member
Then leave your gun at home.....
He said "I carry a gun but Im not a sheepdog.Im not armed to protect anyone but myself and if I herd gun fire I would not run towards it to help"
I parraphrased him but thats the jist of it but after listening to him I thought "Then why do u carry a gun if you wouldnt protect the defensless?"
IMO, if u carry a firearm then by default ur a sheepdog. wiether u like it or not. Having the means to protect others and choosing not to makes u nothing more than a sheep painted like a dog.
IMO, If u carry a firearm,befor you go out into the world you need to understand that you could be the only one standing between the wolves and the defensless. IF you arent willing to sacrifice your life so others may live than leave your gun at home and if the wolf comes just panic and run away with the rest of the sheep and pray that someone with a since of honor along with the heart to stand up and fight and if nessesary die in the defense of others comes to do what u WONT do.
Some may say "Its the job of the police to be that guy. Not average Joe"
and I say there wronge. If we arent willing to die for one anouther then we need to take a step back and re-evaluate.
I for one am at terms with the fact that since I choose to be armed, there may come a time when I may be the only one equiped to stop the wolves. Im also aware that I may be killed in the prosses. If I am killed by the wolf and with my death it gives the innocent time to get away then I can die with honor.
He said "I carry a gun but Im not a sheepdog.Im not armed to protect anyone but myself and if I herd gun fire I would not run towards it to help"
I parraphrased him but thats the jist of it but after listening to him I thought "Then why do u carry a gun if you wouldnt protect the defensless?"
IMO, if u carry a firearm then by default ur a sheepdog. wiether u like it or not. Having the means to protect others and choosing not to makes u nothing more than a sheep painted like a dog.
IMO, If u carry a firearm,befor you go out into the world you need to understand that you could be the only one standing between the wolves and the defensless. IF you arent willing to sacrifice your life so others may live than leave your gun at home and if the wolf comes just panic and run away with the rest of the sheep and pray that someone with a since of honor along with the heart to stand up and fight and if nessesary die in the defense of others comes to do what u WONT do.
Some may say "Its the job of the police to be that guy. Not average Joe"
and I say there wronge. If we arent willing to die for one anouther then we need to take a step back and re-evaluate.
I for one am at terms with the fact that since I choose to be armed, there may come a time when I may be the only one equiped to stop the wolves. Im also aware that I may be killed in the prosses. If I am killed by the wolf and with my death it gives the innocent time to get away then I can die with honor.
griffin
Regular Member
To protect himself? Just a thought.
Citizen
Founder's Club Member
1) Carrying a firearm does not make one a sheepdog. The sheepdog analogy was invented by people who, I suspect, wanted to puff up their self-importance to themselves. Phffft.
2) Nobody has standing to require/demand another endanger himself in the protection of others. Particularly if those others won't defend themselves. Read A Nation of Cowards--its online. The author, a pro-gunner, properly criticizes the immorality of burdening a police officer with endangering his life to protect others. Same applies here. And, that's just the potential physical danger you're demanding of your unwilling sheepdog. There's also:
3) The legal jeopardy. Stepping in to defend another may land the defender in legal trouble. Yeah, yeah, yeah, we all know he'll get off in court; but's that's only after the legal bills climb halfway to the moon.
I can just tell you right now that I have no plans on being a sheepdog. Call me a well-armed lamb, which also has another meaning.*
*"Democracy is two wolves and a lamb voting on what to eat for lunch. Liberty is a well-armed lamb contesting the vote." Ben Franklin
scot623
Regular Member
Other than the sentence you highlighted, did you not hear one thing this guy said???
casper
Guest
If it were me, I would do what ever needed to be done to help others. Nothing stupid, but if I think I can stop the threat, I'd try. Someones Mom would be glad I did. I you have the key to shut it off, then do it right ? (You shouldn't have to worry about the legal aspect of it eather.) If you can save lives do it.
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I'm not a sheepdog, just a sheep like everyone else with teeth and claws that are as large as the wolf's. I don't have claws and teeth for other sheep. I don't throw myself in front of wolves to save the defenseless sheep. I am not going to put my life in jeopardy to intervene to save someone else's life that I don't know or care about. If by some chance my teeth and claws saves your life from a wolf, that's awesome. If by some chance you are being accosted by a wolf and I feel my life is also threatened and I intervene, that's fine. But the whole sheepdog mentality that suggests I'm going to protect sheep from wolves is insane. It's elevating me (a lowly sheep) to a species which I am not. That makes me a heartless bastard, I know. But you really can't blame me, I'm just a sheep.
PistolPackingMomma
Regular Member
Those who wish to throw their lives onto the funeral pyre in the name of "honor" to protect those who will not protect themselves; go for it.
But do not dare to tell me that I am obligated to risk my life for anyone other than those I choose to defend. My responsibility is to my family, and I don't consider it "honorable" to throw away my life and my duty to my husband and children for some misguided notion of heroics.
You have no claim to my actions, philosophy or obligations, so don't presume to tell me I should make the choice you will make, just because we both carry firearms.
But do not dare to tell me that I am obligated to risk my life for anyone other than those I choose to defend. My responsibility is to my family, and I don't consider it "honorable" to throw away my life and my duty to my husband and children for some misguided notion of heroics.
You have no claim to my actions, philosophy or obligations, so don't presume to tell me I should make the choice you will make, just because we both carry firearms.
marshaul
Campaign Veteran
If I accept your contention, then I counter with the observation that this is precisely why the "classic" analogy/paradigm is flawed, inapplicable to any aspect of life, and frankly stupid.
It's not merely incidental that a sheepdog, you know, protects the sheep. It's so integral to the definition of the word that it's simply not applicable, even by analogy, to something or someone not primarily concerned with protecting the flock.
It's like analogizing a motorcycle to a toilet because they both have a seat. Or saying that a sofa must fit into one of two categories: "toilet" or "motorcycle".
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marshaul
Campaign Veteran
+1
Oh, and I see what you did there.
:lol:
This. All of it.
And this.
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