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Domestic Violence Conviction

love4guns

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where foce

QUOTE=skidmark;1814410]United States v. White applies to the question of whether the indictment (charge) specifies that violence was part of the offense -- not that all charges under 18.2-57.2 fail to meet the requirements of Lautenberg. Thinking that the decision says anything else is dangerous, and telling someone else that is dangerous in the extreme.

United States v. White merely put the Commonwealth on notice that if they wanted to convict someone of a violent crime they must specify in the indictment that there was violence involved. The decision hinged on the fact that Virginia relies on the Common Law definition of battery and that the court found that definition wanting in demonstrating that "violence" was an aspect or element of the crime. Nothing else. United States v. White does not give blanket protection from the impact of Lautenberg.

I am once again reduced to :banghead::cuss::banghead: because someone latches onto case law and declares that it applies to and/or controls all aspects of the issue, instead of reading the plain wording of the decision. Were it not for that pesky double jeopardy thing the Commonwealth might have gone back, added a phrase along the lines of "with physical violence" to the indictment, and nailed Mr. White's 2A rights to the barn wall to dry and wither. The case, as noted clearly by the court, hinged solely on the fact that they blew the paperwork, not that the crime as described in the Code of Virginia could never cause one to lose 2A rights because of Lautenberg.

I await User's response, should he decide to offer his thoughts, if only because he also reads what the law says as opposed to what people wished it said.

stay safe.

PS - Peter Nap -- it all depends on how Mrs. Nap behaves when she tells you to shut up and eat your stir fry. It's whether she waves a rolling pin in the general direction of your noggin as opposed to giving you "the look". One is merely high drama. The other is use of deadly force.[/QUOTE]
 

nuc65

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PS - Peter Nap -- it all depends on how Mrs. Nap behaves when she tells you to shut up and eat your stir fry. It's whether she waves a rolling pin in the general direction of your noggin as opposed to giving you "the look". One is merely high drama. The other is use of deadly force.

Neither is USE of deadly force, merely brandishing. Now if she actually hits him in the noggin it might be assault but considering the hardness of head and the fact the rollin' pin might break I doubt if it would actually be deadly force.
 

nuc65

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This is incorrect. This law applies to ANY firearm that has EVER been shipped via interstate commerce. If the firearm was shipped interstate then the federal government believes they have the right to control it simply because it crossed a state line and that small clause in the Constitution SUPPOSEDLY gives them the authority. Nearly all firearms are shipped via interstate commerce from manufacturer to distributor to dealer. The only way he could possess a firearm is if it was manufactured in Virginia and never left the state. If he currently owns any firearms that were made in Virginia then he could retake possession of those firearms as long as Virginia law allows him to do so.

Even in your response you contradict yourself. I don't know the specifics of the charges or the conviction. Nobody here seems to. We all ASSUME that the conviction bears resemblance to the ban in question. I think that the only safe way to return the firearms would be to go to court and get a court order, otherwise you risk being found guilty of theft.

Like everyone else I don't know all the specifics to answer a question of what to do. Everything in this thread is conjecture based on not enough information (except in the case of the refusal to eat the Mrs. stir fry).
 
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skidmark

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Here is a comment for you: YOU ARE ABSOLUTELY RIGHT! ....

I prefer to look at it as merely being less wrong. Unlike some egomaniacal psychopaths with State Bar cards and a cushy county government job, I have never claimed that practicing law is the same as getting it right.


It is not unusual for an appellate court to tell one side or the other (but usually the gooberment side) how to correxct deficiencies that make them not prevail at the appellate level. Overturning something on constitutional grounds that is pretty sure to be carried up to the next higher appellate level is just asking to get your ears pinned back - just ask the 9th Circuit.:uhoh:

Even so, it is instructive because both sides are now effectively on notice for what needs to be "in there" for things to be considered all present and correct. Knowing the propensity of humans to forget things, it gives defense attorneys the chance to find an occassional loophole.

stay safe.
 

love4guns

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here are the facts......

J&D courts and general district courts in the state of Virginia are not courts of record. The fourth Circuit Court looked at United States versus Shepherd to determine what can be looked at by later court to Determine force. The charging document, warrant, transcripts of the plea colloquy,written plea agreement, and final order is all that can be used to determine force. None of these items would be present after a case in the general district court or J and D court therefore no 1 can be barred from owning firearms due to 18.2-57.2. If the case was apealed to the circuit court these items would still be on record for ten years however if there is no record of force in these items even though the case was sent to the circuit court the person would stinot be prohibied from owning a firearm. That guy from Kentucky is dead wrong. Mr white was not set free set due to a clerical error but a matter of law. You will see what I'm talking about once Mr Hawes responds....
 

KYGlockster

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Even in your response you contradict yourself. I don't know the specifics of the charges or the conviction. Nobody here seems to. We all ASSUME that the conviction bears resemblance to the ban in question. I think that the only safe way to return the firearms would be to go to court and get a court order, otherwise you risk being found guilty of theft.

Like everyone else I don't know all the specifics to answer a question of what to do. Everything in this thread is conjecture based on not enough information (except in the case of the refusal to eat the Mrs. stir fry).

Could you please point out my supposed contradiction?
 

KYGlockster

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I prefer to look at it as merely being less wrong. Unlike some egomaniacal psychopaths with State Bar cards and a cushy county government job, I have never claimed that practicing law is the same as getting it right.


stay safe.

HAHA. You are right again. Another gentleman here in KY and myself have dealt with a county attorney who SEEMS to believe he is GOD, and that whatever he says is what the county should and will do, even though what he says they should do is an extreme violation of our state constitution and state law. I have delt with some obscene attorneys, but this man takes the cake.
 
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TFred

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This is incorrect. This law applies to ANY firearm that has EVER been shipped via interstate commerce. If the firearm was shipped interstate then the federal government believes they have the right to control it simply because it crossed a state line and that small clause in the Constitution SUPPOSEDLY gives them the authority. Nearly all firearms are shipped via interstate commerce from manufacturer to distributor to dealer. The only way he could possess a firearm is if it was manufactured in Virginia and never left the state. If he currently owns any firearms that were made in Virginia then he could retake possession of those firearms as long as Virginia law allows him to do so.
If you apply the same logic today that was applied to one of the most egregious Commerce Clause cases, it wouldn't matter. In Wickard v. Filburn (1942), the Supreme Court basically said that the government could regulate how much wheat a farmer could grow for his own consumption, because that affected the interstate commerce of wheat, in this case, reducing it, because he grew his own supply.

Using that logic, there is nothing out of the reach of Congress.

TFred
 

skidmark

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If you apply the same logic today that was applied to one of the most egregious Commerce Clause cases, it wouldn't matter. In Wickard v. Filburn (1942), the Supreme Court basically said that the government could regulate how much wheat a farmer could grow for his own consumption, because that affected the interstate commerce of wheat, in this case, reducing it, because he grew his own supply.

Using that logic, there is nothing out of the reach of Congress.

TFred

And if you read Wickard you will see that he really was not growing just for his own consumption - unless he had a family of several thousands who each went through severa loaves at each meal.

Which still does not reduce the egregious nature of the decision. The point being that as long as Wickard did not put the wheat into commerce one way or another, the feds should have kept their noses out of it altogether.

stay safe.
 

TFred

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And if you read Wickard you will see that he really was not growing just for his own consumption - unless he had a family of several thousands who each went through severa loaves at each meal.

Which still does not reduce the egregious nature of the decision. The point being that as long as Wickard did not put the wheat into commerce one way or another, the feds should have kept their noses out of it altogether.

stay safe.
Interesting, I've never read the actual opinion, just summaries of it. I thought it was all for his farm, feed for his farm animals.

TFred
 

skidmark

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Interesting, I've never read the actual opinion, just summaries of it. I thought it was all for his farm, feed for his farm animals.

TFred

Do the math.

But the bottom line is that by keeping his wheat out of interstate commerce he messed up farm price supports, which as you might imagine irked the gooberment mightily. A lesson that applies to much beyond farming.

stay safe.
 

Fenris

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It would seem to me that the safest thing to do is have your friend sue you (small claims court maybe) and have the court to order you to return your friend's property.

I can't see how you can be charged with a crime for following a court order. But then again I'm no lawyer. Ask User, and have your friend pay for it.
 

user

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My apologies if this is redundant, I didn't bother to read the whole thread. The problem with the OP's message is incorrect terminology, as Skidmark obliquely observed. There is no such thing as a "crime of domestic violence" per se in Virginia. Assault never involves violence, since no touching of any kind is required for a conviction, and battery only necessitates the slightest touch that constitutes "the unprivileged, offensive touching of the person of another without legal cause, justification, or excuse." Violence is not an element of the crime defined by 18.2-57.2.

However, it is my understanding that some police agencies are ignoring the law on this point and assuming that they can arrest someone (with an eye to railroading him into a felony conviction) merely because of a conviction for domestic assault and firearms possession. This should not be necessary, but in order to eliminate that risk, one should file a petition for declaratory judgment that he is not prohibited from possession on account of that conviction.
 

user

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Interesting, I've never read the actual opinion, just summaries of it. I thought it was all for his farm, feed for his farm animals.

TFred

The Court specifically held that by his failure to affect interstate commerce (e.g., by not buying bread that had been shipped), the farmer was affecting interstate commerce. I don't think I'm allowed, as a licensed attorney, to say what I think about that opinion.
 

love4guns

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My apologies if this is redundant, I didn't bother to read the whole thread. The problem with the OP's message is incorrect terminology, as Skidmark obliquely observed. There is no such thing as a "crime of domestic violence" per se in Virginia. Assault never involves violence, since no touching of any kind is required for a conviction, and battery only necessitates the slightest touch that constitutes "the unprivileged, offensive touching of the person of another without legal cause, justification, or excuse." Violence is not an element of the crime defined by 18.2-57.2.

However, it is my understanding that some police agencies are ignoring the law on this point and assuming that they can arrest someone (with an eye to railroading him into a felony conviction) merely because of a conviction for domestic assault and firearms possession. This should not be necessary, but in order to eliminate that risk, one should file a petition for declaratory judgment that he is not prohibited from possession on account of that conviction.

As far as State law goes, it's not illegal to possess a firearm after a domestic assault and battery. So how is it that state Leos can arrest a citizen for what they believe is a federal infraction? In WVA they have within their state law a ban on people possessing a firearm after such a conviction. So I see how a local cop can arrest someone there. But in VA there is no such law so what ground does a state officer have to stand on for such an arrest?
 

user

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By the way, there's another case, U.S. v. Jackson which analyzes Florida law (which is very similar to Virginia law in this respect) with respect to the "violence" thing in a slightly different context (enhanced sentencing). That U.S. Sup. Ct. case used pretty much the same analysis as was used in White.

The reason cops can arrest people who are not actually guilty of crimes is that they don't need to know or care whether the arrestee is actually guilty. All they need is probable cause to believe that a crime has been committed and that the arrestee is the person responsible. If the guy's got a gun, and they know he's been convicted of a domestic assault charge, they'll argue that's probable cause. Wrong, of course, but it's good enough to survive their "qualified immunity" in a civil case, since they'll argue that they were reasonable cops doing their job and reasonably believed that "domestic assault" was a "misdemeanor crime of domestic violence". That's enough to at least shoehorn seizure of the arrestee's firearms. And God help the man who attempts to buy a gun from a dealer, and, filling out the forms, truthfully checks the box, "NO", in response to "have you ever been convicted of a misdemeanor crime of domestic violence", and signs his name under penalty of perjury. That guy will probably be "delayed" to give the VSP time to get to the shop to haul him away. That's why I recommend a pre-emptive strike in the form of a declaratory judgment action. Expensive, but better than some of the alternatives.

To answer the other part of the question: Under the U.S. Constitution, the United States is completely lacking in "the police power", which is reserved exclusively to the states. Since the invention of the FBI, which was supposed to have been limited to "investigations" in support of the states' law enforcement, the U.S. has been (unlawfully) getting more and more involved in police work, and there are federal agencies that actually believe they are law enforcement agencies are funded as such and behave as such. However, the Constitution intentionally limits the power of the U.S. by making it dependent on the states for enforcement of its laws. All persons acting under the law enforcement authority of a state government are empowered to enforce U.S. law within their jurisdiction.

Implication: that Sheriff in Arizona or some such place who keeps enforcing federal immigration law is the only person in the U.S. who's acting lawfully within his authority on that issue. The authority and power of the U.S. is to stop people at the border.
 
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