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Thread: interaction with police after seeing video of Milton Hall in Saginaw

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    Regular Member Bearhawk's Avatar
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    interaction with police after seeing video of Milton Hall in Saginaw

    I've not seen mention of the shooting of Milton Hall by the Saginaw Police on July 1, 2012 in this forum and I couldn't find anything of it when using the search command. If you have not seen it there is amateur video of him receiving 46 bullets in about 5 seconds from 6 police officers. CNN has the video as well as other news outlets. The police had a dog there, I'm sure they had tazers and other non-lethal rounds but decided to shoot a mentally ill guy walking away from them because he had a knife and wouldn't drop it. Moments earlier he may have seemed threatening but walking away is hardly threatening.

    I'm not bashing the police and I know that's not tolerated on this forum. What scares me is us OC-ers may have officers called on us with MWAG calls. As a recent thread mentioned a motorcyclist who was carrying on his bike was drawn upon by police. Jeff Hamon was approached with guns drawn on him. I know there have been many others. It's crazy to see how this ended. I guess the take away is do as your told or you might get tried, convicted, and executed within seconds.

    If you haven't seen this, it's a wake up call. It should scare you even though this stuff shouldn't happen.
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    It will happen someday.

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    Regular Member Motofixxer's Avatar
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    A non compliant armed individual with a weapon in hand walking away is most likely considered Greater Danger or something similar. The individual could easily go and harm someone. Now if you didn't have a weapon in hand and walked away...they likely wouldn't shoot. But we really don't know.
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    I have in hand OCed. Wasn't a danger to anyone.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Bearhawk View Post

    I'm not bashing the police and I know that's not tolerated on this forum. .
    The bashing is a general bashing of police in general or on the whole ... in specific cases you are free to point out the errors of a policeman or department; just don't jump to a generalization due to the actions of one person or department.

    And Thanks for the link !
    Last edited by davidmcbeth; 08-21-2012 at 11:15 PM.

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    Regular Member Michigander's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Bearhawk View Post
    Moments earlier he may have seemed threatening but walking away is hardly threatening.
    A knife is a more deadly weapon than a handgun in skilled hands. The time it takes to close the distance and kill with a knife is tiny.

    Bearing in mind I don't know the specifics of the case, but just talking generally, a maniac with a knife, threatening violence, and refusing to drop his or her knife should probably be shot hard fast and repeatedly until dropped, even if walking away if there is a possibility that further and immediate violence will result if the lunatic isn't stopped. Every situation is different, and of course this also isn't legal advice, but we'd do very very well to remember just how fast you can go from fine to dead if stabbed.
    Last edited by Michigander; 08-21-2012 at 11:37 PM.
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    If you watch the video closer there are cops on that side that hes walking towards you'll see them come out after the shooting is done. the video says 6 cops shot but if you watch it you can only see 4 clearly so that means there where 2 in his way when he went to leave

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    Regular Member WalkingWolf's Avatar
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    While the shooting may have been justified the public is going to react badly to the video. They continued to fire while the man was down, those officers probably will face charges from the US DOJ. Because so many shots were fired I don't know how they will determine if the initial shots were fatal, it probably is going to get sticky. They clearly need to retrain their officers on self control.

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    Might as well give them a minigun, or even an axe, police are invincible, with immunity.

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    Michigan Moderator DrTodd's Avatar
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    I watched the video and still have a question: What was the reason for the initial police response, or more specifically, what law was allegedly being violated that the officers needed to have the subject disarm?

    edited to add: Uh oh, looks suspicious: "Police in Milton Hall Saginaw Shooting Say Video/Audio Equipment Didn't Work, But Shooting Justified" http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ofpozh5oNMI
    Last edited by DrTodd; 08-22-2012 at 11:54 AM.
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    Quote Originally Posted by DrTodd View Post
    I watched the video and still have a question: What was the reason for the initial police response, or more specifically, what law was allegedly being violated that the officers needed to have the subject disarm?

    edited to add: Uh oh, looks suspicious: "Police in Milton Hall Saginaw Shooting Say Video/Audio Equipment Didn't Work, But Shooting Justified" http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ofpozh5oNMI
    Of course it didnt work, because the amature video made it look suspicious and now people want answers, well I bet the people wont be happy with that answer! Smells like the thin blue line if you ask me.
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    Does anyone have a link to the video that they can post?

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    Regular Member Bearhawk's Avatar
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    From what I gathered he stole a cup of coffee from a convenience store and they called the police. He was known to be mentally ill and unstable and had acted violently towards police before.

    My biggest things were how quickly it seemed to turn into shooting when he never seemed to lunge or make any quick moves, and also why weren't bean bag shotguns used or a tazer? Obviously as one who carries a gun and am prepared to use it, I don't have a problem with lethal force in the presence of a lethal threat. I just didn't see the need for lethal force in that situation at that very moment...but again, I wasn't there in their shoes. I know there is a lot I don't know but it sure seemed pretty severe for the situation from what I could see in the video. Yes, a knife in the hands of someone who knows how to use it is very deadly and they can be quick with it. Perhaps a lot more happened before the video.

    If I (a non-police) were in their shoes I would have tried getting away from the man long before that point by retreating to a safe place but they had a job to do and that was to keep him from hurting them or the public so they couldn't retreat.
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    Regular Member Bearhawk's Avatar
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    There are several stories. Here is just one http://globalgrind.com/news/police-s...-graphic-video
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    If the police were worthy of our trust, would we even be having this discussion?

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    Quote Originally Posted by stainless1911 View Post
    If the police were worthy of our trust, would we even be having this discussion?
    pow pow pow pow pow, that guy wasn't kidding ... 30+ shots .... civilian cops, a joke...I thought these guys are tough--no one knows how to disarm a guy with a knife?

    maybe they should be issued ropes or nets .... oh, these cost 2 dollars, thats right

    2 or 30 .... the guy was killed, right? Would people have been happier with 1 kill shot?

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    I think if it was a one shot stop, the cops would have been disappointed.

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    Regular Member WalkingWolf's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by stainless1911 View Post
    I think if it was a one shot stop, the cops would have been disappointed.
    I wonder where the bullets went that missed...

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    Quote Originally Posted by WalkingWolf View Post
    I wonder where the bullets went that missed...
    Maybe they all missed .... ricochet

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    Regular Member Evil Creamsicle's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by mirussell View Post
    If you watch the video closer there are cops on that side that hes walking towards you'll see them come out after the shooting is done. the video says 6 cops shot but if you watch it you can only see 4 clearly so that means there where 2 in his way when he went to leave
    I see 5 when the shooting starts.

    But you make a good point, there is no good view of the direction he was moving so without more information its hard to discern if he was walking toward someone or not. However, as Michigander noted, he was well within range, if armed with a knife [which is unclear from the video], of being a fatal threat to one or more of the officers in the video.

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    Michigan Moderator Shadow Bear's Avatar
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    If he had just had the good sense to fall down after the first shot, or even flew backwards, like in the movies, they wouldn't have felt the need to shoot again (and again, and again....)
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    Regular Member WalkingWolf's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Shadow Bear View Post
    If he had just had the good sense to fall down after the first shot, or even flew backwards, like in the movies, they wouldn't have felt the need to shoot again (and again, and again....)
    They had to keep shooting~~his body kept twitching~

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    Quote Originally Posted by stainless1911 View Post
    I have in hand OCed. Wasn't a danger to anyone.
    :0 ?!?!?! Try that in front of your Sheriff friends and you'll get wrung up for brandishing faster than you can say "mommy".
    Last edited by scot623; 08-23-2012 at 08:58 PM.

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    Whatever. It was that or CC, which I hate.

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    Quote Originally Posted by stainless1911 View Post
    Whatever. It was that or CC, which I hate.
    I don't want this thread to get derailed...but can you please explain why you had carry your pistol in your hand?

    *edited to remove "OC in your hand" because I don't think it's a smart thing to advertise.)
    Last edited by scot623; 08-23-2012 at 10:19 PM.

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