Checking weapon at Tacoma court.

Boost · Aug 21, 2012

I accompanied a friend to the Tacoma municipal court today, and wanted to share my experience.
I was OC, and my friend was CC. Total time for check-in was about 30-40mins. Checkout was 15-20min.
During check-in I was asked for full name, DOB, and ID. I provided my first and last name. I declined on the DOB, and stated that I wanted to finish my business. The officer stated that he felt that I did not have any business with the court, and that I was just testing their procedures. He asked why I placed tape over the serial number of my gun. I replied to the effect that I was curious if they would take it off. I was allowed entry, and finished my business. Upon exiting, I was given my weapon back unloaded and slide locked back. The tape had been removed from the serial #. The officer asked me to put it in my pocket and not reload until I was in my car. I asked the officer to place it in my holster, and he did. He handed me the magazine and told me to put it in my pocket. At one point he mentioned my CC permit. At no point was I asked, nor did I state that I had a CC permit. That information was obtained via the serial# on my weapon.
Later I had a brief interaction with a TPD officer on the street. OC was not an issue, and was not addressed.
I did audio record all interactions.

What is the current take on serial#'s being used to obtain information about a person?

Right Wing Wacko · Aug 22, 2012

As far as I'm concerned, since you had the SN covered, and they uncovered it, it was an unwarrented and possibly illegal search

Jeff Hayes · Aug 22, 2012

I do not even know where to start. Did you get the officers name and badge number? As far as having business with the court it is none of that officers business why you are there. Anyone anytime can attend court hearings they are open to the public except in rare cases where a judge will clear the court room.

Do a FOIA request to see if they ran your serial number, he could have simply asked for your CPL to see if you had one and it may have nothing to do with running the serial number.

I may have demanded the firearm be given back to me in the condition it was received in or made them escort me to my car and wait while I reloaded.

If they ran your info and removed the tape to run the serial number they did an illegal search IMHO.

golddigger14s · Aug 22, 2012

Since when is a serial number associated with a CPL?

Freedom1Man · Aug 22, 2012

golddigger14s said:
Since when is a serial number associated with a CPL?

Ding! +20 for that catch.

rapgood · Aug 22, 2012

Boost said:
I accompanied a friend to the Tacoma municipal court today, and wanted to share my experience.
I was OC, and my friend was CC. He asked why I placed tape over the serial number of my gun. I replied to the effect that I was curious if they would take it off.

What is the current take on serial#'s being used to obtain information about a person?

[edited to focus on serial number issue]

Next time, I suggest that you take a locking pistol case with you and lock the weapon in it before allowing it to be surrendered to the LEO. Then, if the lock is broken and tape removed when you get it back, you probably will have a cause of action against the LEO to whom it was surrendered.

I hold his arrogance in contempt. What a petty and arrogant thing for him to do.

Boost · Aug 22, 2012

golddigger14s said:
Since when is a serial number associated with a CPL?

They are not directly related, however the info provided by running the serial allows other searches to be performed. Why do you think he wanted full name and DOB after I declined to provide ID.

EMNofSeattle · Aug 22, 2012

Was this a sheriff's deputy or one of the rent-a-guards?

When I was following the KRRC case I came to the courthouse one day with a couple of left-over rounds from the range. anyway this security guard takes away my single bullets saying that unless I let him keep them he would "have me arrested" later that day I spoke to a sheriff's deputy in the cafeteria and he said "really? he was supposed to escort you to our ground level office to lock them up"

obviously the Renties there have a power complex with them

gogodawgs · Aug 22, 2012

I had a similar experience a couple of years ago.... the Tacoma/Pierce courthouse is crap.

EMNofSeattle · Aug 22, 2012

I will say though, I'm frightened of the idea that you can deposit and retrieve your pistol without showing ID. I mean What if while i'm conducted business at a court house, someone who knows I'm there and carry and wants my gun goes to security desk and demands "I'M EMNofSEATTLE, I WANT MY PISTOL BACK and officer goes "well sure can I see some ID and the imposter goes I DON'T NEED TO SHOW YOU MY IDEA, I'LL SUE YOU, IT'S MY RIGHT TO RETRIEVE MY PISTOL WITHOUT ID OR A DATE OF BIRTH and the imbecile guards hands over MY revolver to some guy who's NOT me, what happens then? Is there a form I can fillout that indicates my pistol is to be returned upon showing of ID only? I mean i love my liberties, but I love my guns too, and they are priceless to me, I don't nessecarily feel good about someone being able to retrieve a gun without showing proof they are the ones who deposited it.

Jeff Hayes · Aug 22, 2012

EMNofSeattle said:
I will say though, I'm frightened of the idea that you can deposit and retrieve your pistol without showing ID. I mean What if while i'm conducted business at a court house, someone who knows I'm there and carry and wants my gun goes to security desk and demands "I'M EMNofSEATTLE, I WANT MY PISTOL BACK and officer goes "well sure can I see some ID and the imposter goes I DON'T NEED TO SHOW YOU MY IDEA, I'LL SUE YOU, IT'S MY RIGHT TO RETRIEVE MY PISTOL WITHOUT ID OR A DATE OF BIRTH and the imbecile guards hands over MY revolver to some guy who's NOT me, what happens then? Is there a form I can fillout that indicates my pistol is to be returned upon showing of ID only? I mean i love my liberties, but I love my guns too, and they are priceless to me, I don't nessecarily feel good about someone being able to retrieve a gun without showing proof they are the ones who deposited it.

UMM how about you hold the key to the lock box or get a numbered token in place of ID, or a blue card that matches a red card in place of ID. There are many ways around the ID issue.

I think if they are so arrogant there why not set them up, someone could build a holster with a hidden camera/voice recorder and we could have several people go through security at the same time entering and exiting doing separate recordings. Someone else could stick around to see if they could see where the firearm went. We could also set a firearm up so that the slide is locked and will not function that would drive the crazy when they could not check/unload the chamber. Think of it as a adventure. The Cops seem to have fun setting up the criminals they catch, why not us having fun setting up the criminal officers??????

SeattleWingsfan · Aug 22, 2012

I had a really long reply to this that I typed, but took too long and the website logged me out and I lost it. So I will make this simple.

I feel that unless registration is mandatory for all guns, any database should not be used for speculative means. Far too many people Buy or Sell or trade firearms on a regular basis.

Lets say I buy a Gun from Jim all legal. Six months later Jims has a fmily dispute and he is charged and convicted of Domestic Abuse. A month from that I am entering said court house to be of support for a family member in court. I am asked to check my gun and the LEO takes it upon himself to run the serial for whatever reason. I refuse ID request, he wants to know if it's stolen, whatever you can come up with. The database points to the guy I bought it from and now I'm put in a predicament because he thinks I am a domestic Abuse guy walking around with a loaded gun. Only bad can come of this. Even if it's just my loss of time explaining who I am. I may be detained, I may have the gun siezed, I might be forced to prove it's mine. I would come out fine in the end after jumping through hoops. But I should not ever have to do that.

It's like the MWAG youtube videos where they ask for ID simply for carrying a gun to make sure your not a fellon. Do they check the ID's of all young looking people that get out of a car to make sure they are old enough to drive? Maybe we should start always asking LEOs for ID to make sure they are not criminals impersonating an officer for some shady reason.

If you don't see a crime, everything about it should be considered legal and nothing further done. I should never have to hand my gun over to someone else. Too many issues, safety wise, damaged goods wise. It should be a key locker situation, I shut the door, key comes out. I hold onto key. I loose key, I have to go through the process to prove the stuff is mine.

SeattleWingsfan · Aug 22, 2012

When I say speculative. I mean the database as it stands is fine if they want to use it to say does Jason own a gun. They can pull it up see if I bought one. All a database can do is state one fact, did I buy one. It can't say that I still have it, or prove that I don't have others. And running it backwards proves next to nothing. Running a serial can only give you one thing in reality. Questions.

Only one fact can come of it. The original purchaser. It can't be used to prove anything else. Everything else is speculative.

Jeff Hayes · Aug 22, 2012

SeattleWingsfan said:
I had a really long reply to this that I typed, but took too long and the website logged me out and I lost it. So I will make this simple.

I feel that unless registration is mandatory for all guns, any database should not be used for speculative means. Far too many people Buy or Sell or trade firearms on a regular basis.

Lets say I buy a Gun from Jim all legal. Six months later Jims has a fmily dispute and he is charged and convicted of Domestic Abuse. A month from that I am entering said court house to be of support for a family member in court. I am asked to check my gun and the LEO takes it upon himself to run the serial for whatever reason. I refuse ID request, he wants to know if it's stolen, whatever you can come up with. The database points to the guy I bought it from and now I'm put in a predicament because he thinks I am a domestic Abuse guy walking around with a loaded gun. Only bad can come of this. Even if it's just my loss of time explaining who I am. I may be detained, I may have the gun siezed, I might be forced to prove it's mine. I would come out fine in the end after jumping through hoops. But I should not ever have to do that.

It's like the MWAG youtube videos where they ask for ID simply for carrying a gun to make sure your not a fellon. Do they check the ID's of all young looking people that get out of a car to make sure they are old enough to drive? Maybe we should start always asking LEOs for ID to make sure they are not criminals impersonating an officer for some shady reason.

If you don't see a crime, everything about it should be considered legal and nothing further done. I should never have to hand my gun over to someone else. Too many issues, safety wise, damaged goods wise. It should be a key locker situation, I shut the door, key comes out. I hold onto key. I loose key, I have to go through the process to prove the stuff is mine.

I do not see how a cop could develop RAS that you are committing a crime from a list of purchased firearms, all he would know is that he firearm was originally purchased by someone that was convicted of DV. That in no way should indicate to him that you were that person. I think that would be pretty thin ice for the Cop especially if a lot of time had passed between the purchase and your encounter.

The Cop could simply ask for ID but if you refused then I don't believe he could lawfully detain you.

badkarma · Aug 22, 2012

Can you file a harrasment report or act of discrimination against them?

SeattleWingsfan · Aug 22, 2012

I didn't say it would give them RAS. I simply said it could cause you to be held up, not legally. But how many people legally doing what they are entitled to do, even walking down the street are held up or bothered for no legitament reason.

I do agree, with what the database can prove, it is not worth the cost of running it.

Jeff Hayes · Aug 22, 2012

SeattleWingsfan said:
I didn't say it would give them RAS. I simply said it could cause you to be held up, not legally. But how many people legally doing what they are entitled to do, even walking down the street are held up or bothered for no legitament reason.

I do agree, with what the database can prove, it is not worth the cost of running it.

Mostly the people that are held up unlawfully are those that do not know the law or their rights.

sudden valley gunner · Aug 22, 2012

EMNofSeattle said:
I will say though, I'm frightened of the idea that you can deposit and retrieve your pistol without showing ID. I mean What if while i'm conducted business at a court house, someone who knows I'm there and carry and wants my gun goes to security desk and demands "I'M EMNofSEATTLE, I WANT MY PISTOL BACK and officer goes "well sure can I see some ID and the imposter goes I DON'T NEED TO SHOW YOU MY IDEA, I'LL SUE YOU, IT'S MY RIGHT TO RETRIEVE MY PISTOL WITHOUT ID OR A DATE OF BIRTH and the imbecile guards hands over MY revolver to some guy who's NOT me, what happens then? Is there a form I can fillout that indicates my pistol is to be returned upon showing of ID only? I mean i love my liberties, but I love my guns too, and they are priceless to me, I don't nessecarily feel good about someone being able to retrieve a gun without showing proof they are the ones who deposited it.

As Orphan brought out there are other ways, when I go to city courthouse here in Bellingham, now that I forced them to follow the law I keep the key and use it to retrieve my weapon back no ID required.

On a side note I am trying to figure out that quote you have from me in your tagline.....it had nothing to do with what you posted before it. (scratching head)

EMNofSeattle · Aug 22, 2012

sudden valley gunner said:
As Orphan brought out there are other ways, when I go to city courthouse here in Bellingham, now that I forced them to follow the law I keep the key and use it to retrieve my weapon back no ID required.

On a side note I am trying to figure out that quote you have from me in your tagline.....it had nothing to do with what you posted before it. (scratching head)

Well that makes sense, I got a different impression from reading the OPs story

PM sent over your side note

kparker · Aug 23, 2012

Hey, is no one else troubled by this:

Total time for check-in was about 30-40mins.

That's beyond pathetic! Hard to believe it's not deliberate foot-dragging to discourage Just Plain Citizens from bothering them with carrying.

Checking weapon at Tacoma court.

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