Page 1 of 2 12 LastLast
Results 1 to 25 of 33

Thread: OC law becomes effective Aug. 28th 2012

  1. #1
    Regular Member mspgunner's Avatar
    Join Date
    Feb 2009
    Location
    Ellisville, Missouri, USA
    Posts
    1,966

    OC law becomes effective Aug. 28th 2012

    This is all we got in the Missouri Legislature last session. Becomes the "law" in Missouri on the 28th of August 2012.

    Unfortunate but here it is:

    571.037. Any person who has a valid concealed carry endorsement, and who is lawfully carrying a firearm in a concealed manner, may briefly and openly display the firearm to the ordinary sight of another person, unless the firearm is intentionally displayed in an angry or threatening manner, not in necessary self-defense.
    If you pull it, you use it. If you pull it and you don't use it, you've done some thing wrong and you might not get another chance. Think about it before you pack it!
    I worked 24/7 for 2A OC rights! Don't like what I did? Try it yourself, it was my full time job!
    Certified NRA Range Safety Officer - RSO

  2. #2
    Regular Member Redbaron007's Avatar
    Join Date
    Sep 2011
    Location
    SW MO
    Posts
    1,637
    Trying to pull as much positive out of it as possible....it's a start?
    "I can live for two weeks on a good compliment."
    ~Mark Twain

  3. #3
    Regular Member OC for ME's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jan 2010
    Location
    White Oak Plantation
    Posts
    12,273
    ....baby steps....
    "I would rather be exposed to the inconveniences attending too much liberty than to those attending too small a degree of it." - Thomas Jefferson.

    "Better that ten guilty persons escape, than that one innocent suffer" - English jurist William Blackstone.
    It is AFAIK original to me. Compromise is failure on the installment plan, particularly when dealing with so intractable an opponent as ignorance. - Nightmare

  4. #4
    Regular Member papa bear's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jul 2010
    Location
    mayberry, nc
    Posts
    2,258
    well it will help in printing. but, if a cop wants to, it would make it easier to arrest you. because if you do show it in a non defense manner it will be grounds for arrest
    Luke 22:36 ; 36Then said he unto them, But now, he that hath a purse, let him take it, and likewise his scrip: and he that hath no sword, let him sell his garment, and buy one.

    "guns are like a Parachute, if you don't have one when you need it, you will not need one again"
    - unknown

    i you call a CHP a CCW then you are really stupid. period.

  5. #5
    Regular Member mspgunner's Avatar
    Join Date
    Feb 2009
    Location
    Ellisville, Missouri, USA
    Posts
    1,966
    Quote Originally Posted by OC for ME View Post
    ....baby steps....
    It's going to have to go one baby step at at a time. In J.C. if you get anything at all, especially with the small numbers we have, be glad we got some thing.

    More steps next year, how big or small, we'll just have to see.
    If you pull it, you use it. If you pull it and you don't use it, you've done some thing wrong and you might not get another chance. Think about it before you pack it!
    I worked 24/7 for 2A OC rights! Don't like what I did? Try it yourself, it was my full time job!
    Certified NRA Range Safety Officer - RSO

  6. #6
    Regular Member
    Join Date
    Sep 2008
    Location
    St. Louis, Missouri, USA
    Posts
    231
    Quote Originally Posted by papa bear View Post
    well it will help in printing. but, if a cop wants to, it would make it easier to arrest you. because if you do show it in a non defense manner it will be grounds for arrest
    That's not true. The law is written horribly though. It's a cluster of vague words that leaves way to much up to interpretation. You may briefly show as long as it's not in an angry and threatening manner. The self defense part applies to if you show it in an angry and threatening manner. That means you can show it in a threatening manner in self defense only.

    This law will surely not help you beat the ride to jail in a city that prohibits open carry, but it should help your defense.

    Maybe this should be emailed to the police chief and other city leaders that currently ban open carry and encourage them to write the exact same law in their ordinances. Will they do it, probably not. Will it create an electronic record that puts them on notice, yes.

  7. #7
    Regular Member Griz's Avatar
    Join Date
    Feb 2010
    Location
    , ,
    Posts
    300
    Missouri has nothing in the statutes regarding printing.

  8. #8
    Accomplished Advocate
    Join Date
    Apr 2010
    Location
    , ,
    Posts
    1,924
    That law serves only as a bad example of what the NRA can do to a perfectly good bill when the lobbyist is gutless.

    That ladies and gents is exactly what the NRA turned the OC with CCW bill Paul Fitzwater introduces when they rolled it into the omnibus guns bill.

    I would call OC with CCW baby steps, I call this a kick in the groin by those who are SUPPOSED to be on our team.

    Has anyone else noticed the lobby by the NRA for OC in other states? I have and it is PATHETIC what they did to us, absolutely pathetic weasel politics.

    You of course are welcome to disagree.
    John C. Eastman Associate Dean of Chapman University’s School of Law "the Second Amendment, like its sister amendments, does not confer a right but rather recognizes a natural right inherent in our humanity."

  9. #9
    Regular Member
    Join Date
    Jun 2012
    Location
    Somewhere
    Posts
    111

    This new bill..

    It sounds to me like this applies to "CC'ers" and not the O.C. people. Unless this is going to replace the O.C. laws..which means that people can no longer O.C. unless one has a CCW permit now. My question is.. What does this mean?
    Last edited by SixGunCowboy; 08-22-2012 at 08:47 PM.

  10. #10
    Accomplished Advocate
    Join Date
    Apr 2010
    Location
    , ,
    Posts
    1,924
    Quote Originally Posted by SixGunCowboy View Post
    It sounds to me like this applies to "CC'ers" and not the O.C. people. Unless this is going to replace the O.C. laws..which means that people can no longer O.C. unless one has a CCW permit now. My question is.. What does this mean?
    I am very unclear how folks keep reading that into the OC with CCW legislation, it means nothing of the sort.

    What the OC with CCW bill does is makes it LEGAL for a person with a CCW to OC anywhere in the state, even the municipalities who have made OC illegal. It has no impact what so ever on locations that do NOT restrict OC, those areas remain OC to anyone legal to carry, IE not a felon restricted from firearms ownership.

    The POS legislation referenced above applies only to CCW'ers and is NOT an OC bill. It is simply covering one for sure in the instance they are taking their coat off to get in the car and are spotted by the popo with their gun exposed in a locality restricting OC.
    John C. Eastman Associate Dean of Chapman University’s School of Law "the Second Amendment, like its sister amendments, does not confer a right but rather recognizes a natural right inherent in our humanity."

  11. #11
    Regular Member
    Join Date
    Jun 2012
    Location
    Somewhere
    Posts
    111

    Re: This new bill..

    Thank You, that's the information that I was looking for. Thank You for answering my question.

  12. #12
    Regular Member
    Join Date
    May 2010
    Location
    Phoenix, AZ
    Posts
    613
    Statewide pre-emption, nothing less will do. Period.
    __________________________________________________ __________________________

    "The problem with Internet quotes is that no one has verified the source" -- Abraham Lincoln

  13. #13
    Accomplished Advocate
    Join Date
    Apr 2010
    Location
    , ,
    Posts
    1,924
    Quote Originally Posted by peterarthur View Post
    Statewide pre-emption, nothing less will do. Period.
    Without regard for my total agreement and even a step further to CONSTITUTIONAL carry for MO, I am a lot more of a realist and getting OC with CCW, OC preempted as current, or OC preempted all suit me as progress, if you think we are getting preemption on the first shot, well, you must not have been paying any attention to last year.

    Agree with you Pete, but that is not a reality for next year, you or anyone else is welcome to try and I pledge my FULL support, even toss some coin at it if you can convince me it will help, but bottom line, in the MO legislature it is not happening in one failed swoop.
    John C. Eastman Associate Dean of Chapman University’s School of Law "the Second Amendment, like its sister amendments, does not confer a right but rather recognizes a natural right inherent in our humanity."

  14. #14
    Regular Member WalkingWolf's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jul 2011
    Location
    North Carolina
    Posts
    12,279
    The NRA is pro CC. It puts money in their pockets.

  15. #15
    Regular Member mspgunner's Avatar
    Join Date
    Feb 2009
    Location
    Ellisville, Missouri, USA
    Posts
    1,966
    Quote Originally Posted by peterarthur View Post
    Statewide pre-emption, nothing less will do. Period.
    All it takes (and we have one) is one anti-2A or OC Senator to filibuster and premption is not going to happen, either is Constitutinal carry. If anyone knows a way to eliminate that threat we can have both. For right now it is going to be pick, pick, pick at firearms rights for years to come. Vote smart, encourage others to do so...
    If you pull it, you use it. If you pull it and you don't use it, you've done some thing wrong and you might not get another chance. Think about it before you pack it!
    I worked 24/7 for 2A OC rights! Don't like what I did? Try it yourself, it was my full time job!
    Certified NRA Range Safety Officer - RSO

  16. #16
    Regular Member
    Join Date
    Nov 2010
    Location
    Spfld, Mo.
    Posts
    430
    Quote Originally Posted by Redbaron007 View Post
    Trying to pull as much positive out of it as possible....it's a start?
    I'm not convinced that it's a positive. They tried to solve a problem that didn't exist, essentially creating a brand new problem. Read that VERY carefully. It could easily be interpreted as that someone who is carrying concealed must remain concealed and cannot completely uncover...openly carry. If a scumbag lawyer twists it enough it could mean that open carry by a CCW endorsement holder in Missouri or any permit we give reciprocity to would then be unlawful carry because it's not "briefly" displayed as the wording would require.

    It makes me sick to my stomach that the authoring politician would not listen to the warnings of several people with LE experience that said this WILL be the case if this becomes law.
    Last edited by REALteach4u; 08-23-2012 at 11:51 PM.

  17. #17
    Regular Member
    Join Date
    Nov 2010
    Location
    Spfld, Mo.
    Posts
    430
    Quote Originally Posted by WalkingWolf View Post
    The NRA is pro CC. It puts money in their pockets.
    Really? And just how does that happen?

    The NRA does not sponsor in any way State-mandated CCW classes in Missouri. When I last spoke with some big-wigs at the NRA I was informed that they do not approve of NRA course materials being used as CCW classes, but it is perfectly fine if a NRA instructor wants to teach a NRA pistol course so long as it is clearly separate from the State-mandated training that would not be covered by the NRA pistol course. Not a single student that I've taught has EVER been required to send the NRA a dime in any fashion.

  18. #18
    Regular Member OC for ME's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jan 2010
    Location
    White Oak Plantation
    Posts
    12,273
    571.037. Any person who has a valid concealed carry endorsement, and who is lawfully carrying a firearm in a concealed manner, may briefly and openly display the firearm to the ordinary sight of another person, unless the firearm is intentionally displayed in an angry or threatening manner, not in necessary self-defense.
    How exactly would a cop know that a OCer had been carrying in a concealed manner to then cite the carrier for exceeding the "briefly" time limit? This does presume that OC is not banned in that jurisdiction. If OC is banned then this provision is not a "bad" thing in that jurisdiction.

    If I am CC then remove my coat or tuck in my shirt that is not OCing, according to some with LE experience, but a brief display that keeps going on and on and on? If OC is not banned this provision could not be twisted to make OC illeag if you are CC and then remover your coat in front of a cop who hates OC but knows the law.

    Don't get me wrong, I hear where you are coming from, and is "it" possible, sure anything is possible. But I refuse to get all worked up over this "what if" scenario. 571.037 is a "good" step in the right direction for the citizen who has a slight wardrome malfunction in the "Maplewoods" of the state.
    "I would rather be exposed to the inconveniences attending too much liberty than to those attending too small a degree of it." - Thomas Jefferson.

    "Better that ten guilty persons escape, than that one innocent suffer" - English jurist William Blackstone.
    It is AFAIK original to me. Compromise is failure on the installment plan, particularly when dealing with so intractable an opponent as ignorance. - Nightmare

  19. #19
    Regular Member mspgunner's Avatar
    Join Date
    Feb 2009
    Location
    Ellisville, Missouri, USA
    Posts
    1,966
    Quote Originally Posted by OC for ME View Post
    How exactly would a cop know that a OCer had been carrying in a concealed manner to then cite the carrier for exceeding the "briefly" time limit? This does presume that OC is not banned in that jurisdiction. If OC is banned then this provision is not a "bad" thing in that jurisdiction.

    If I am CC then remove my coat or tuck in my shirt that is not OCing, according to some with LE experience, but a brief display that keeps going on and on and on? If OC is not banned this provision could not be twisted to make OC illeag if you are CC and then remover your coat in front of a cop who hates OC but knows the law.

    Don't get me wrong, I hear where you are coming from, and is "it" possible, sure anything is possible. But I refuse to get all worked up over this "what if" scenario. 571.037 is a "good" step in the right direction for the citizen who has a slight wardrome malfunction in the "Maplewoods" of the state.
    I agree with tis post. And it is a step in the right direction. OC freedom is not going to happen in one big leep! It is only going to happen step by step. That my friends is the realisty of Missouri politics in regard to OC rights. It will take many years if we are ever going really get full OC rights. I don't make the rules.... Would we "like" constitutional carry in one sweep? Sure, but it aint gonna happen. We have a great
    2A majority in the Missouri House (If it stays that way) , no problem. All it takes is one State Senator to kill a good bill, that's the problem, and we have one of those!
    If you pull it, you use it. If you pull it and you don't use it, you've done some thing wrong and you might not get another chance. Think about it before you pack it!
    I worked 24/7 for 2A OC rights! Don't like what I did? Try it yourself, it was my full time job!
    Certified NRA Range Safety Officer - RSO

  20. #20
    Moderator / Administrator
    Join Date
    May 2006
    Location
    Fairfax County, Virginia, USA
    Posts
    8,711
    Quote Originally Posted by papa bear View Post
    well it will help in printing. but, if a cop wants to, it would make it easier to arrest you. because if you do show it in a non defense manner it will be grounds for arrest
    No, the new statutory provision allowing brief open carry is essentially a **preemption statute** - there is no state law against open carry or printing in Missouri - so what it means is that (1) Defendants accused of violating local open carry bans can claim a safe harbor (temporary OC) and probably (2) the statute probably means that any prosecutor must now prove as an element of the local open carry offense that the open carry was not a temporary open carry; and probably that a prosecutorial failure to claim that the open carry was NOT temporary would provide the Defendant the ability to succeed on a Motion to Dismiss the Case without even MOUNTING a Defense.

    In other words, this is a first step toward full preemption in Mossouri and puts these localities off balance on the open carry policy issue - certainly a good justification to ask these localities to repeal their restrictions and force the city councils to face the heat of gun owners when they vote on the motions to repeal their ordiances.

  21. #21
    Regular Member OC for ME's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jan 2010
    Location
    White Oak Plantation
    Posts
    12,273
    There is no "concealed means concealed" statute in Missouri. Only cops who dislike OCing citizens and the CC only crowd believe there is. "Printing" just means that you don't care if someone knows that you are armed. Printing is not OCing.
    "I would rather be exposed to the inconveniences attending too much liberty than to those attending too small a degree of it." - Thomas Jefferson.

    "Better that ten guilty persons escape, than that one innocent suffer" - English jurist William Blackstone.
    It is AFAIK original to me. Compromise is failure on the installment plan, particularly when dealing with so intractable an opponent as ignorance. - Nightmare

  22. #22
    Regular Member
    Join Date
    Feb 2010
    Location
    Jefferson City, Mo., ,
    Posts
    490
    Quote Originally Posted by OC for ME View Post
    There is no "concealed means concealed" statute in Missouri. Only cops who dislike OCing citizens and the CC only crowd believe there is. "Printing" just means that you don't care if someone knows that you are armed. Printing is not OCing.
    Exactly . I don't care and most times during summer I wear shirts with the sleeves and neck cut out and the grip of my gun hangs out the side all the time. I don't care and have never had a problem .

  23. #23
    Regular Member mspgunner's Avatar
    Join Date
    Feb 2009
    Location
    Ellisville, Missouri, USA
    Posts
    1,966
    There is a staute that allows municipal government to prohibit OC, if some one has the desire and buck$ to challange that in court there are many municipalities and the City of St. Louis who would be delighted to allow you to do this. Baring that,the are municipalities in Missouri can and do prohibit OC.
    Come on down and lead the court case, we'd love to have you do it!

    Quote Originally Posted by Mike View Post
    No, the new statutory provision allowing brief open carry is essentially a **preemption statute** - there is no state law against open carry or printing in Missouri - so what it means is that (1) Defendants accused of violating local open carry bans can claim a safe harbor (temporary OC) and probably (2) the statute probably means that any prosecutor must now prove as an element of the local open carry offense that the open carry was not a temporary open carry; and probably that a prosecutorial failure to claim that the open carry was NOT temporary would provide the Defendant the ability to succeed on a Motion to Dismiss the Case without even MOUNTING a Defense.

    In other words, this is a first step toward full preemption in Mossouri and puts these localities off balance on the open carry policy issue - certainly a good justification to ask these localities to repeal their restrictions and force the city councils to face the heat of gun owners when they vote on the motions to repeal their ordiances.
    If you pull it, you use it. If you pull it and you don't use it, you've done some thing wrong and you might not get another chance. Think about it before you pack it!
    I worked 24/7 for 2A OC rights! Don't like what I did? Try it yourself, it was my full time job!
    Certified NRA Range Safety Officer - RSO

  24. #24
    Regular Member OC for ME's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jan 2010
    Location
    White Oak Plantation
    Posts
    12,273
    If printing is considered OC in Maplewood I'll wager that your entire defense will be pro bono. That would be a slam dunk for big bucks. The benefit would be that 21.750.3 would get the heave ho and rightly so. Do you or anyone else for that matter think that any cop, even a STL City cop would like to walk down that path.
    "I would rather be exposed to the inconveniences attending too much liberty than to those attending too small a degree of it." - Thomas Jefferson.

    "Better that ten guilty persons escape, than that one innocent suffer" - English jurist William Blackstone.
    It is AFAIK original to me. Compromise is failure on the installment plan, particularly when dealing with so intractable an opponent as ignorance. - Nightmare

  25. #25
    Regular Member mspgunner's Avatar
    Join Date
    Feb 2009
    Location
    Ellisville, Missouri, USA
    Posts
    1,966
    Quote Originally Posted by OC for ME View Post
    If printing is considered OC in Maplewood I'll wager that your entire defense will be pro bono. That would be a slam dunk for big bucks. The benefit would be that 21.750.3 would get the heave ho and rightly so. Do you or anyone else for that matter think that any cop, even a STL City cop would like to walk down that path.
    Volunteer needed... OC for ME... go for it!
    If you pull it, you use it. If you pull it and you don't use it, you've done some thing wrong and you might not get another chance. Think about it before you pack it!
    I worked 24/7 for 2A OC rights! Don't like what I did? Try it yourself, it was my full time job!
    Certified NRA Range Safety Officer - RSO

Page 1 of 2 12 LastLast

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
  •