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Thread: Who needs a gun in NYC ?

  1. #1
    Campaign Veteran skidmark's Avatar
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    Who needs a gun in NYC ?

    http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2012/0...6pLid%3D196572

    EMPIRE STATE BUILDING SHOOTING

    Unpossible! NYC has laws against that!

    Wait! Do you mean those laws only work if people obey them? Who knew?

    News sources are noting that Bloomberg's podium was set up at the site shortly after the police had declared the scene "secure". Bllomberg's actual appearance was not quite as quick.

    stay safe.
    "He'll regret it to his dying day....if ever he lives that long."----The Quiet Man

    Because stupidity isn't a race, and everybody can win.

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  2. #2
    Regular Member We-the-People's Avatar
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    Just another "gun free" zone FAIL.
    "The Second Amendment speaks nothing to an unfettered Right". (Post # 100)
    "Restrictions are not infringements. Bans are infringements.--if it reaches beyond Reasonable bans". (Post # 103)
    Beretta92FSLady
    http://forum.opencarry.org/forums/sh...ons-Bill/page5

    Disclaimer: I am not a lawyer, nothing in any of my posts should be considered legal advice. If you need legal advice, consult a reputable attorney, not an internet forum.

  3. #3
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    Great. Another reason for Bloomberg to put his ugly face on the television again and mumble on about needing more gun laws. It doesn't matter that "HIS" city has more gun laws than nearly every other city in the country, yet they have one of the highest gun murder rates. Hhmmm, I thought laws kept criminals from being criminals? Oh well, maybe the reason they are criminals is because they break the law? Yea, that's it!
    "I never in my life seen a Kentuckian without a gun..."-Andrew Jackson

    "Guard with jealous attention the public liberty. Suspect every one who approaches that jewel. Unfortunately, nothing will preserve it but downright force. Whenever you give up that force, you are ruined."-Patrick Henry; speaking of protecting the rights of an armed citizenry.

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    Regular Member Grim_Night's Avatar
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    LINK

    started a thread on the same topic... just minutes after this one was started lol...

  5. #5
    Regular Member TFred's Avatar
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    Bloomberg is an absolute idiot. From a CBS News article:

    Some of those injured may have been accidentally shot by the officers, Mayor Michael Bloomberg said.

    "This is a terrible tragedy, and there's no doubt that the situation would have been even more tragic but for some extraordinary acts of heroism," Bloomberg said.

    So when police officers accidentally shoot innocent bystanders, they are HEROS, but according to Bloomberg, they can't allow any ordinary citizens to carry guns in NYC, because they might accidentally shoot someone else, and make the situation worse! What a hypocrite!


    http://www.cbsnews.com/8301-201_162-...tate-building/

  6. #6
    Regular Member twoskinsonemanns's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by TFred View Post
    Bloomberg is an absolute idiot. From a CBS News article:

    Some of those injured may have been accidentally shot by the officers, Mayor Michael Bloomberg said.

    "This is a terrible tragedy, and there's no doubt that the situation would have been even more tragic but for some extraordinary acts of heroism," Bloomberg said.

    So when police officers accidentally shoot innocent bystanders, they are HEROS, but according to Bloomberg, they can't allow any ordinary citizens to carry guns in NYC, because they might accidentally shoot someone else, and make the situation worse! What a hypocrite!


    http://www.cbsnews.com/8301-201_162-...tate-building/
    Seconded. I was fuming slightly as I watched his press release.
    "I support the ban on assault weapons" - Donald Trump

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    Regular Member EMNofSeattle's Avatar
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    http://news.blogs.cnn.com/2012/08/24...tate-building/

    Take a look at the picture on this article, notice all the cops with white uniform shirts? NYC police officers and Sergeants wear Navy Blue shirts, those guys are ALL Lieutenants or above, why so much command presence at a single event that's been wrapped up is my question.
    they love our milk and honey, but they preach about some other way of living, when they're running down my country man they're walkin' on the fightin side of me

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  8. #8
    Regular Member twoskinsonemanns's Avatar
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    BG kills one. Cops kill BD and wound 9....(speculation based on statements given)
    I guess the cops win.
    "I support the ban on assault weapons" - Donald Trump

    We are fast approaching the stage of the ultimate inversion: the stage where the government is free to do anything it pleases, while the citizens may act only by permission - Ayn Rand

  9. #9
    Campaign Veteran skidmark's Avatar
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    Some of those injured may have been accidentally shot by the officers, Mayor Michael Bloomberg said.
    Because only the police are proficient enough to safely use handguns.

    I'm not saying that a street full of armed citizens might not have resulted in some innocent bystanders being shot, but when there is more than one cop shooting you can pretty much count on 1) every other cop starting to shoot, too; and 2) someone/something besides the intended target getting hit.

    But rather than sit behind my keyboard and bad-mouth the poor marksmanship of the cops, I'd like to offer up a suggestion that might actually improve a few things. I say it's high time we each adopt a cop - take them with you when you go to the range so they can have more than once- or twice-yearly practice shooting that brick they carry around. Take them with you when you go shopping for groceries, or stop to get a hot dog, fries and a Super Big Gulp after the kiddies' ball game. Take them with you when you go to the library, or the laundramat, or to the city council/board of supervisors' meeting. Let them see lawfully armed citizens going about their daily routine with a handgun properly holstered, who are not threatening store clerks, or maiming their spouse/children, or that the handgun did not jump out of the holster and go on a rampage at the mall or by the kiddie swings in the park.

    You see, what with cops being so prone to hitting people/things they did not mean to hit when they start shooting, I have a feeling that cops are afraid - not so much guns as they are afraid of the other cops who are shooting their guns.

    Letting cops get used to being around people with guns who do not use them recklessly might calm their fears, and might get them to think that training on their own time and their own dime might be a good idea.

    And then I woke up and realized that there was no porridge, and no bears, and no little girl either. It was all a dream.

    stay safe.
    "He'll regret it to his dying day....if ever he lives that long."----The Quiet Man

    Because stupidity isn't a race, and everybody can win.

    "No matter how much contempt you have for the media in all this, you don't have enough"
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  10. #10
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    We've said (and known) all along that cops miss more (can't hit the criminal target) and cause more collateral damage than armed citizens do. This just confirms that.

    So again it must be asked, WHO needs the "training?" The cops or citizens?

    How can cops do so poorly with all that MANY hours of Academy training yet citizens with FEWER hours of training do better if training alone is the solution -- as liberals say? [rhetorical question]

    Something to consider when ignorant people say (1) citizens need "training" before they should be allowed to CC (or OC) their guns, (2) citizens need MORE training than they currently receive to get a CC permit (the number of hours their particular state requires needs to be increased), or, (3) citizens need AS MUCH training as cops get.

    No...they don't.

    Citizens do just fine without any of that. Let them continue to do whatever they're doing as it's working MUCH better.
    Last edited by cloudcroft; 08-24-2012 at 05:12 PM.

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    It's just a tiny bit frustrating that if an officer is involved in friendly fire it's a justifiable accident; but if an armed citizen were to do that, he or she better hope they can afford the legal team if they don't want to be in a federal pen for the rest of their lives.

  12. #12
    Regular Member EMNofSeattle's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by cloudcroft View Post
    We've said (and known) all along that cops miss more (can't hit the criminal target) and cause more collateral damage than armed citizens do. This just confirms that.

    So again it must be asked, WHO needs the "training?" The cops or citizens?

    How can cops do so poorly with all that MANY hours of Academy training yet citizens with FEWER hours of training do better if training alone is the solution -- as liberals say?

    Something to consider when ignorant people say (1) citizens need "training" before they should be allowed to CC (or OC) their guns, (2) citizens need MORE training than they currently receive to get a CC permit (the number of hours their particular state requires), or, (3) citizens need AS MUCH training as cops get.

    No...they don't. Citizens do just fine without any of that.
    Because nearly all of the academy is policy, legal, and procedural training. less then 5 hours are firearm training in most academies I believe. In addition most armed citizen shootings are 1 on 1 encounters or 1 on 2 in an isolated areas (away from witnesses). whereas in a mass shooting most civilians run away, and if there is armed civilians in a mass shooting scenario they are probably more likely to "excuse themselves" from a shooting situation if they can safely escape, whereas police officers dispatched will confront the shooter.
    they love our milk and honey, but they preach about some other way of living, when they're running down my country man they're walkin' on the fightin side of me

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  13. #13
    Regular Member sharkey's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by EMNofSeattle View Post
    Because nearly all of the academy is policy, legal, and procedural training. less then 5 hours are firearm training in most academies I believe. In addition most armed citizen shootings are 1 on 1 encounters or 1 on 2 in an isolated areas (away from witnesses). whereas in a mass shooting most civilians run away, and if there is armed civilians in a mass shooting scenario they are probably more likely to "excuse themselves" from a shooting situation if they can safely escape, whereas police officers dispatched will confront the shooter.
    Arm chair quarterback here ... from what little I know of this, there would have been no mass shooting if the cops weren't there. The man had one target. He shot and killed his target. The cops shot him and everyone else. Since I'm speculating I'll go all out and say had they not shot him he probably would have taken a hostage after firing at the cops. OTOH had the cops not shown he probably would have been arrested peacefully later.

    Main point .. this was not a mass shooting by a deranged suspect. The cops need training and charges. If I caused collateral damage I'd be charged.

  14. #14
    Regular Member EMNofSeattle's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by sharkey View Post
    Arm chair quarterback here ... from what little I know of this, there would have been no mass shooting if the cops weren't there. The man had one target. He shot and killed his target. The cops shot him and everyone else. Since I'm speculating I'll go all out and say had they not shot him he probably would have taken a hostage after firing at the cops. OTOH had the cops not shown he probably would have been arrested peacefully later.

    Main point .. this was not a mass shooting by a deranged suspect. The cops need training and charges. If I caused collateral damage I'd be charged.
    I only read the very first reports this morning that implied it was a mass shooting, since then I've been out working and haven't read anything more, if what you're saying is true then you'd be right. I'll go back and read some more stories
    they love our milk and honey, but they preach about some other way of living, when they're running down my country man they're walkin' on the fightin side of me

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  15. #15
    Regular Member TFred's Avatar
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    Reports are starting to filter in now that it was indeed the police officers who shot all the innocent bystanders.

    Watch before your very eyes as the media changes this event from "yet another mass shooting" to a story that nobody can seem to remember ever happening.

    TFred

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    Regular Member TFred's Avatar
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    Here we go... bad guy is "6 to 8 feet" away from two cops who manage to hit NINE OTHER people.

    All Bloomberg's reasons for keeping guns out of the hands of law abiding citizens just went up in smoke.

    TFred

    http://www.dnainfo.com/new-york/2012...le-sources-say

    This is probably the "First Mass Shooting by Cop" in the United States.
    Last edited by TFred; 08-24-2012 at 09:24 PM.

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    Regular Member hammer6's Avatar
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    http://newyork.cbslocal.com/2012/08/...tate-building/

    those cops were very poorly trained for "terror task force police"

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    "Each worker carried his sword strapped to his side." Nehemiah 4:18

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  19. #19
    Regular Member EMNofSeattle's Avatar
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    I think the video establishes a justified shoot as far as the criminal side goes. Armed suspect who just shot someone reaches in his bag... The real question is, who's going down on the civil side? Are the officers going to be ruled negligent and have their QI waived? Or is the city going to be ruled negligent in not providing proper marksmanship training?

    Looking up some of the police shootings in NYC over the last few years it seems that officers are like deputy Garcia from Reno 911! They can't hit anything and have comically bad marksmanship. Maybe the lack of firearm culture in the city explains that...
    they love our milk and honey, but they preach about some other way of living, when they're running down my country man they're walkin' on the fightin side of me

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  20. #20
    Regular Member TFred's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by EMNofSeattle View Post
    I think the video establishes a justified shoot as far as the criminal side goes. Armed suspect who just shot someone reaches in his bag... The real question is, who's going down on the civil side? Are the officers going to be ruled negligent and have their QI waived? Or is the city going to be ruled negligent in not providing proper marksmanship training?

    Looking up some of the police shootings in NYC over the last few years it seems that officers are like deputy Garcia from Reno 911! They can't hit anything and have comically bad marksmanship. Maybe the lack of firearm culture in the city explains that...
    Don't make me laugh. Bloomberg called them heros. They will get medals, and bonuses, and the courts will quickly dismiss anything that might come their way. This is the land of the sheeple, I'd be surprised if anyone even files a lawsuit.

    TFred

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    Regular Member We-the-People's Avatar
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    I find it absolutely rediculous that those officers closed on someone suspected of being armed and having shot someone in a crowded location when the same agency probably has a policy of "backing off" in vehicle chases. They should have followed at a discrete distance until the suspect was in a location that wasn't so "target rich" for their hail of bullets!

    They're weaing bullet proof vests, the unconstitutionally disarmed citizen bystanders were not. Hero's would have taken a different approach.
    "The Second Amendment speaks nothing to an unfettered Right". (Post # 100)
    "Restrictions are not infringements. Bans are infringements.--if it reaches beyond Reasonable bans". (Post # 103)
    Beretta92FSLady
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    Disclaimer: I am not a lawyer, nothing in any of my posts should be considered legal advice. If you need legal advice, consult a reputable attorney, not an internet forum.

  22. #22
    Regular Member The Airframer's Avatar
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    Maybe Bloomberg could grab the guns of all his police officers and just arm them all with hand grenades. I'm sure they'd be just as effective at taking out suspects and possibly a little less collateral damage then the cops with guns shooting in every direction caused.
    It's better to have it and not need it then to need it and not have it...

  23. #23
    Regular Member TFred's Avatar
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    Very interesting information posted at the top of this page (the shaded background portion).

    http://www.reddit.com/r/politics/com...s_were/c5ymqvv

    Thoughts?

    TFred

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    Regular Member DangerClose's Avatar
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    Proof that 10-round mags aren't enough. If there would have only been one cop, he would have had to reload while the bad guy was pointing a gun at him. If there had been one cop and two bad guys, he would have had to reload THREE TIMES since he would have needed 32 shots.

  25. #25
    Regular Member The Airframer's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by DangerClose View Post
    Proof that 10-round mags aren't enough. If there would have only been one cop, he would have had to reload while the bad guy was pointing a gun at him. If there had been one cop and two bad guys, he would have had to reload THREE TIMES since he would have needed 32 shots.
    Not that NYC residents are allowed their constitutional rights anyway, but if they were and the Great Leader Bloomberg passed something similar to an AWB, do you really think it would apply to his SS/gestapo forces? They'd still be as armed as they please, shooting suspects and everyone else near them.

    Maybe calling them SS/gestapo is a little too generous because i'm sure they actually had firearms training before assaulting the innocent public.
    Last edited by The Airframer; 08-26-2012 at 09:07 AM. Reason: grammar correction
    It's better to have it and not need it then to need it and not have it...

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